Let Warner know we expect a new transfer for Full Metal Jacket!

[tsb]

Let Warner know we want a new transfer. I am trying to replace FMJ w/ EWS in my order to make sure they get the point. Since EWS includes the unrated version I decided to go ahead with it and wait and see with the FMJ transfer.

My e-mail:

Would it be possible to replace:

Full Metal Jacket: Deluxe Edition (BD)
Blu-Ray
Price $14.96 (Savings $4.99)
ADVANCED ORDER
Estimated Street Date 10-23-2007

with

Eyes Wide Shut: Special Edition (BD)
Blu-ray?

Order number is *******. I'd like to change because I worry Warner will reuse the bobbed transfer from the original Full Metal Jacket on HD DVD. After verifying that Eyes Wide Shut will include the unrated version, I'd like to replace Full Metal Jacket with Eyes Wide Shut and wait to see if Full Metal Jacket gets a new transfer before re-ordering.

[tsb]

I also sent an e-mail to their CS department asking about the FMJ transfer.

[Icemage]

If you ordered it from the Warner store, I can tell you that their ordertaking facility is contracted out and your complaint may get circular filed.

It took me three phone calls to make a correction on an order I made earlier this year... on a title that was pre-ordered (Planet Earth). For some reason, their automated system registered the HD DVD version instead of the Blu-ray when it sent me my confirmation 3 weeks before release. I finally convinced them to cancel the order completely because they were unable to change the version (remember, this was weeks before Planet Earth released, so they had ample time to modify the order if they wanted to).

It really soured me on their customer service.

I tried to order some more stuff from them a few days ago, but surprise surprise their online automated systems weren't working.

I've given up on them at this point and am just ordering my stuff through Amazon now.

[tsb]

Thanks. If I don't get an e-mail back soon I'll give them a call. Hope I don't have to since I'm calling from Taiwan.

[Paulidan]

What exactly is 'wrong' with the current transfer. Time codes would be helpful as well.

or is it just that you don't like the way it was filmed? Wish it looked all sharp and highly contrasted like the movies made in the last few years?

[jim.vaccaro]

Originally Posted by Paulidan

What exactly is 'wrong' with the current transfer?

It was made from an older 1080i master that was 'bobbed' to 1080p, as opposed to making a native 1080p master from film elements.. Some folks with 1080p displays report stairstepping and jaggies as a result of the 'bobbed' transfer. The problem doesn't seem to be noticeable on 720p displays. On my 720p LCD front projector, the transfer looks great, as does Enter The Dragon and The Fugitive.

[John Ballentine]

Enter The Dragon did not use a bobbed master and looks great on 1080p displays. FMJ and The Fugitive both suffer from stairstepping.

I can't imagine in my wildest dreams (nightmares) that Warner would use the same transfer for the new edition of FMJ.

[jim.vaccaro]

Originally Posted by John Ballentine

Enter The Dragon did not use a bobbed master and looks great on 1080p displays.

It didn't? Well, that's good to know. I've always thought it looked great myself.

[bboisvert]

Is it even confirmed that we're not getting a new transfer?

[Rooper]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Is it even confirmed that we're not getting a new transfer?

I don't think anyone really knows anything. This version will be different than the old one, but transfer wise nothing's been stated.

[txfilmguy]

I thought it was definitive that the new version does contain a new transfer, but I guess that was an assumption on my part because I can't find any documentation on that now.

[nyg]

Originally Posted by John Ballentine

Enter The Dragon did not use a bobbed master and looks great on 1080p displays.

I was certainly pleased with its transfer on my 1080p TV.

[TheCrackedJack]

Originally Posted by jim.vaccaro

It was made from an older 1080i master that was 'bobbed' to 1080p, as opposed to making a native 1080p master from film elements.. Some folks with 1080p displays report stairstepping and jaggies as a result of the 'bobbed' transfer. The problem doesn't seem to be noticeable on 720p displays. On my 720p LCD front projector, the transfer looks great, as does Enter The Dragon and The Fugitive.

Can't comment on Enter the Dragon, but your crazy if you think the Fugitive has a great transfer. I had both SD and HD versions playing simultaneously on a 110 inch screen, switched back and forth and the only difference I noticed was an enhanced color palette on the HD version. Besides that, they looked identical.

[Maxx_75]

For the BILLIONTH time none of those early transfers were bobed. They suffered from an improper vertical filter setting. Big difference.

[jim.vaccaro]

First I've heard of that, Maxx. Interesting. Can you explain what the difference is? I think I understand bobbing well enough, but vertical filtering?

[Maxx_75]

Originally Posted by jim.vaccaro

First I've heard of that, Maxx. Interesting. Can you explain what the difference is? I think I understand bobbing well enough, but vertical filtering?

Sure thing Jim. Sorry if I sounded snapy. I myself am not an expert on it at all and the threads discussing this have all been archived but I do have some examples of posts from members here that discuss this issue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kris Deering
-------------
None of those titles were bobbed. The master was filtered, but proper de-interlacing was done.
It was bad vertical domain filtering on the master.

Well instead of guessing as to what is wrong, I got the information from the people doing the work.
The issues were in the master as a result of poor filtering. It had nothing to do with improper
de-interlacing. There are people on this forum that can give you more information on it if they want.
I am sure you guys can figure out who to ask.

I just report what I know, and the sources I use for information aren't speculative by any means.
Whether you agree with me or not means nothing at the end of the day, unless you can come up with a
source that is more credible (which frankly would be impossible given who the sources are) than you can
literally battle this out all day and I won't budge. I understand exactly what it LOOKS like, but there
are LOTS of things you can do to video to make it look bad, I am just saying that the reason people are
saying these look bad is incorrect. I am not saying that there isn't an issue, just not the issue you
think it is.

The master had the vertical domain filtering done to it already, not when doing this encode. The vertical
pixels are essentially doubled because of the filtering. It looks almost like the scan was made at 960x1080
rather than the full 1920x1080. Hope this helps.


ForceFlow
----------
yes. all posters above are correct. Titles was filtered -- ask Josh Z, from what I can recall
he also heard from the source and was spreading the truth.



TrevorS
--------
Not bobbed (Fettastic refused to change the markings on his Tier lists), they are "vertically filtered".
Apparently that was a frequent process applied to 1080i masters to improve their appearance on 1080i
display's -- supposedly it reduces the jaggies.

The only way they can can solve the problem is to build a new master from the ground up, and I guess they
aren't in an immediate rush to spend the money. Bobbing would be worse, that would actually fully discard
half the original picture information. The vertical filtering apparently just trims the vertical resolution
a little.

Previously, the following titles were supposedly confirmed as having been "vertically filtered"
(not bobbed -- that was always wrong):

Enter The Dragon - 1080i master (per KrisD)
The Fugitive - 1080i master
Full Metal Jacket - 1080i master
Lethal Weapon - 1080i master (per KrisD)
Lethal Weapon 2 - 1080i master
The Perfect Storm - 1080i master

Bobbed means they throw away one of the two fields from each frame and then duplicate the remaining one.
This avoids temporal motion artifacts within a given frame (since the fields are no longer time offset),
but at the expense of half the picture information.


awmurray
------------
Forget the tier discussions on this title, too. I tried to get it moved higher but it didn't work
(no love for this title). And apparently it wasn't bobbed (as it says on the tier thread) either. Some have
tried to get that note changed, but to no avail.

I think you should at least rent it and judge for yourself-- I just don't understand the criticism that this
transfer has taken. Out of the supposedly "bobbed" titles, only Full Metal Jacket really is obviously FUBAR'ed.


Josh Z
--------
The issue was that Warner had used older 1080i masters that had been vertically filtered (to reduce aliasing on 1080i broadcast) on some of their movies. This leaves them lacking in detail, and when deinterlaced for HD DVD it introduced jaggies on diagonal lines.

[maverick0716]

Originally Posted by TheCrackedJack

Can't comment on Enter the Dragon, but your crazy if you think the Fugitive has a great transfer. I had both SD and HD versions playing simultaneously on a 110 inch screen, switched back and forth and the only difference I noticed was an enhanced color palette on the HD version. Besides that, they looked identical.

That's funny, because I could clearly see the difference in a direct comparison on my 42" 720p set. Big difference in colour, but there was also a difference in detail (not massive, but it was there for sure).

[Tetsuken]

Originally Posted by John Ballentine

Enter The Dragon did not use a bobbed master and looks great on 1080p displays. FMJ and The Fugitive both suffer from stairstepping.

I can't imagine in my wildest dreams (nightmares) that Warner would use the same transfer for the new edition of FMJ.

I do have the BR Enter the Dragon and a 1080p display (VPL-VW50 on 120" screen), and yes, it is in fact FUBARed. Call the cause bobbed/vertically-filtered/doubled/ whatever you like, but the resulting effect is the same, me seeing bloody blocks of doubled pixels. 960x1080, 1920x540, or 960x540, who knows, it looks like cr*p whatever it is.

The BR release of Enter the Dragon was like 9 months after the HD-DVD one, and they knew of the problems with the master for even longer and went ahead and released it that way anyhow. With history like that, it is very much within the realm of real-life possibility, rather than nightmares, that WHV would indeed just use the same master.

[oink]

Originally Posted by John Ballentine

I can't imagine in my wildest dreams (nightmares) that Warner would use the same transfer for the new edition of FMJ.

Uh, we're talking about WB here...

It would be nice if WB offered free exchanges to 1st release owners (for those unfortunate souls with 1080p displays), but hey, we're talking about WB here...

[SC0TLANDF0REVER]

Originally Posted by Icemage

If you ordered it from the Warner store, I can tell you that their ordertaking facility is contracted out and your complaint may get circular filed.

It took me three phone calls to make a correction on an order I made earlier this year... on a title that was pre-ordered (Planet Earth). For some reason, their automated system registered the HD DVD version instead of the Blu-ray when it sent me my confirmation 3 weeks before release. I finally convinced them to cancel the order completely because they were unable to change the version (remember, this was weeks before Planet Earth released, so they had ample time to modify the order if they wanted to).

It really soured me on their customer service.

I tried to order some more stuff from them a few days ago, but surprise surprise their online automated systems weren't working.

I've given up on them at this point and am just ordering my stuff through Amazon now.

That does not bode well for my dilemna as I realized I mistakenly ordered 2 copies of FMJ instead of one & the copy of 2001 I wanted....

I wrote the Customer Service dpt immediately after I hit submit -
I rec'd the automated email back saying 'we've rec'd your request'

48 hours later I have yet to receive another email acknowledging the issue.

[Dave Mack]

Originally Posted by Tetsuken

I do have the BR Enter the Dragon and a 1080p display (VPL-VW50 on 120" screen), and yes, it is in fact FUBARed. Call the cause bobbed/vertically-filtered/doubled/ whatever you like, but the resulting effect is the same, me seeing bloody blocks of doubled pixels. 960x1080, 1920x540, or 960x540, who knows, it looks like cr*p whatever it is.

The BR release of Enter the Dragon was like 9 months after the HD-DVD one, and they knew of the problems with the master for even longer and went ahead and released it that way anyhow. With history like that, it is very much within the realm of real-life possibility, rather than nightmares, that WHV would indeed just use the same master.

yep

[jim.vaccaro]

Originally Posted by Maxx_75

Sure thing Jim. Sorry if I sounded snapy. I myself am not an expert on it at all and the threads discussing this have all been archived but I do have some examples of posts from members here that discuss this issue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kris Deering
-------------
None of those titles were bobbed. The master was filtered, but proper de-interlacing was done.
It was bad vertical domain filtering on the master.

Well instead of guessing as to what is wrong, I got the information from the people doing the work.
The issues were in the master as a result of poor filtering. It had nothing to do with improper
de-interlacing. There are people on this forum that can give you more information on it if they want.
I am sure you guys can figure out who to ask.

I just report what I know, and the sources I use for information aren't speculative by any means.
Whether you agree with me or not means nothing at the end of the day, unless you can come up with a
source that is more credible (which frankly would be impossible given who the sources are) than you can
literally battle this out all day and I won't budge. I understand exactly what it LOOKS like, but there
are LOTS of things you can do to video to make it look bad, I am just saying that the reason people are
saying these look bad is incorrect. I am not saying that there isn't an issue, just not the issue you
think it is.

The master had the vertical domain filtering done to it already, not when doing this encode. The vertical
pixels are essentially doubled because of the filtering. It looks almost like the scan was made at 960x1080
rather than the full 1920x1080. Hope this helps.


ForceFlow
----------
yes. all posters above are correct. Titles was filtered -- ask Josh Z, from what I can recall
he also heard from the source and was spreading the truth.



TrevorS
--------
Not bobbed (Fettastic refused to change the markings on his Tier lists), they are "vertically filtered".
Apparently that was a frequent process applied to 1080i masters to improve their appearance on 1080i
display's -- supposedly it reduces the jaggies.

The only way they can can solve the problem is to build a new master from the ground up, and I guess they
aren't in an immediate rush to spend the money. Bobbing would be worse, that would actually fully discard
half the original picture information. The vertical filtering apparently just trims the vertical resolution
a little.

Previously, the following titles were supposedly confirmed as having been "vertically filtered"
(not bobbed -- that was always wrong):

Enter The Dragon - 1080i master (per KrisD)
The Fugitive - 1080i master
Full Metal Jacket - 1080i master
Lethal Weapon - 1080i master (per KrisD)
Lethal Weapon 2 - 1080i master
The Perfect Storm - 1080i master

Bobbed means they throw away one of the two fields from each frame and then duplicate the remaining one.
This avoids temporal motion artifacts within a given frame (since the fields are no longer time offset),
but at the expense of half the picture information.


awmurray
------------
Forget the tier discussions on this title, too. I tried to get it moved higher but it didn't work
(no love for this title). And apparently it wasn't bobbed (as it says on the tier thread) either. Some have
tried to get that note changed, but to no avail.

I think you should at least rent it and judge for yourself-- I just don't understand the criticism that this
transfer has taken. Out of the supposedly "bobbed" titles, only Full Metal Jacket really is obviously FUBAR'ed.


Josh Z
--------
The issue was that Warner had used older 1080i masters that had been vertically filtered (to reduce aliasing on 1080i broadcast) on some of their movies. This leaves them lacking in detail, and when deinterlaced for HD DVD it introduced jaggies on diagonal lines.

Great post. Thanks for that!

[SC0TLANDF0REVER]

Originally Posted by SC0TLANDF0REVER

That does not bode well for my dilemna as I realized I mistakenly ordered 2 copies of FMJ instead of one & the copy of 2001 I wanted....

I wrote the Customer Service dpt immediately after I hit submit -
I rec'd the automated email back saying 'we've rec'd your request'

48 hours later I have yet to receive another email acknowledging the issue.

So I finally get a response (a few mins ago) after the coupon has expired (of course).
Uggh - me and my fat fingers... here's to hoping (against odds) that they'll take mercy on me or that there will be another 25% coupon soon.

"Thank you for contacting Online Customer Service.


Unfortunately, we are unable to modify the order once it enters our system.
We have canceled the order so that you may reorder.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Regards,
Online Customer Service"

[BLU_ALL_DAY]

Originally Posted by tsb

Let Warner know we want a new transfer. I am trying to replace FMJ w/ EWS in my order to make sure they get the point. Since EWS includes the unrated version I decided to go ahead with it and wait and see with the FMJ transfer.

My e-mail:

I agree sent them email also I told them I expected top notch transfers not a flake in the movie itself, but i seen too many flakes it was annoying I turned it off. I told them i want true 1080P HD like my sony tv saids on its tv. Im done bitchin.

[sycho316]

Originally Posted by BLU_ALL_DAY

I agree sent them email also I told them I expected top notch transfers not a flake in the movie itself, but i seen too many flakes it was annoying I turned it off. I told them i want true 1080P HD like my sony tv saids on its tv. Im done bitchin.

There is no way that this is not a gimmick account.

[tsb]

Originally Posted by SC0TLANDF0REVER

So I finally get a response (a few mins ago) after the coupon has expired (of course).
Uggh - me and my fat fingers... here's to hoping (against odds) that they'll take mercy on me or that there will be another 25% coupon soon.

"Thank you for contacting Online Customer Service.


Unfortunately, we are unable to modify the order once it enters our system.
We have canceled the order so that you may reorder.

Thanks again for contacting us.

Regards,
Online Customer Service"

Got the same e-mail today. Hopefully the new system they are implementing will allow you to cancel unshipped orders like Amazon. at least I only ordered one copy.

[steven975]

not to try to start any crap, but have any of you seen the HD-DVD transfer? Looks better and the movie has never been this good outside a theater.

I'm 99% sure the BD got shafted with mpeg2 while HD-DVD got vc1. I own Blu-Ray too, but if they used the HD-DVD transfer on the new edition I'm sure all of you would be happier.

[tsb]

just the same despite different codecs

both have the vertical filtering/bobbed (or whatever caused it) flaw

[MSmith83]

Originally Posted by steven975

not to try to start any crap, but have any of you seen the HD-DVD transfer? Looks better and the movie has never been this good outside a theater.

I'm 99% sure the BD got shafted with mpeg2 while HD-DVD got vc1. I own Blu-Ray too, but if they used the HD-DVD transfer on the new edition I'm sure all of you would be happier.

As mentioned, the only issue people have with the current BD/HD DVD release of Full Metal Jacket has been confirmed to be a result of the vertical domain filtering used. There is an effect similar to aliasing, in that edges often look jagged.

Check out these HD DVD screen grabs provided by AVS member "gooki" to see the actual problem.

[Gary Murrell]

Originally Posted by steven975

I'm 99% sure the BD got shafted with mpeg2 while HD-DVD got vc1.

since when does Mpeg2 = getting shafted

don't drink the HD-DVD Kool-Aid the they were selling, "that old poorer quality Mpeg2 stuff"

-Gary