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Suppose I make it easy for all the newbies and budget folks?

131K views 1K replies 108 participants last post by  greeniguana00 
#1 ·
I have been thinking about taking on a little "ongoing project" and I'm looking for opinions as to if this is a worthwhile idea to spend my time on.


My past is as a MCSE senior IT consultant. One of my specialties was the large scale automation of pc rollout's to corporate size clients including automated O/S deployment. I'm speaking of hands off don't have to do a thing Windows, drivers, codecs, applications, security settings, desktop perferences. Anything you can think of I can script or use deployment tools and old school tricks to get done to where building a new HTPC would take every newbie absolutely no effort at all. Not even a keystroke.



I could maintain a web site with the current "bang for the buck" HTPC power system approved parts that the automation would work for and keep it updated. Also maintaining a list of where the parts are available and the latest sales or whatever as I find them or as they are posted to the web site by others.


I could give all my scripting away free, not sell any parts, not ask for anything up front and just hope for donations from satisfied users to cover time and expenses of the endevour.


Would this be against forum rules to post about here?

Would this have a chance of getting enough donations to even break even?

How many would be interested at this time?

Any other suggestions?

mce2005 and one for vista ultimate? With Mymovies all set up and codecs just perfect and already set to not have stupid problems like stutter and so forth and so on? All set up for every file format, hd-dvd, blueray, with all the bugs already worked out. I can do everything but input your zip code and if you have cable or etc for EPG guide data. All without breaking any laws for distributing any software or codecs illegally but only scripting their download / or install?


What would you all want from something like this if you are interested?


Troy
 
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#427 ·
 Here's an Ed Bott Blu-ray/HD DVD experiment that used one of the pre-release LG drives in Windows Vista to play back both formats on a Dell XPS 410. It used some of the same parts we're talking about - Asus EN8600GT (that's my card), E6600 CPU. Total cost $949 for the PC and $399 for the LG drive. One interesting comment was that HD wouldn't play back in Media Center. He got it working pretty easily, but comments such as the Media Center issue hint at the difficulty of getting everything working smoothly in the system.
 
#428 ·
Joe, thanks for posting that link.


Here's what impressed me the most about it:


"With this particular system, I was able to go from bare metal to home theater in 60 minutes or less. If I had purchased this system with a Blu-ray drive and software already installed, I could presumably have been up and running in little more than the time it took to unpack the box and plug in the cables."


I think it's reasonable to speculate that when that LG drive is available to Dell to install in their systems as an option, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it were a $200 option instead of the $399 it cost the reviewer. Also in that case, PDVD, or something like it, will likely be included in the price of the system. So in a short time "down the road", the reveiwed system from Dell, including drive and play software, MAY be available to J6P for a total of $1150, instead of the $1350+PDVD it cost the reviewer.


Like I said some considerable time ago, the retail cost of the bare drive(s) and OS by themselves start our custom build at what some people will no doubt consider to be ALREADY above a "budget HTPC" price.


Having worked in the power industry, I always "padded" budget estimates somewhat, and even then most times they ended up being UNDERestimates. Therefore, I think that the $1350 total for the system in that article will likely be in the same neighborhood as this project's complete solution.


Because it is so important, I'm sure Troy will keep a running total of the cost of the system to us ordinary folks who will have to buy all of the parts and software at retail prices.
 
#429 ·
"Having worked in the power industry, I always "padded" budget estimates somewhat, and even then most times they ended up being UNDERestimates. Therefore, I think that the $1350 total for the system in that article will likely be in the same neighborhood as this project's complete solution."


$1350? Maybe if you paid retail for everything. Remember it won't be that long before hd-dvd and blue-ray drives really drop in price like other optical drives did. Combo BR/HDDVD/DVD-RW's will just become the standard at some point like current multi format +- dvdrw/cd burners are today. Drives that were $300 a couple years ago are now $30. Add the overhead of the extra licensing costs for the new technology and we could easily see $100 and less combo HD drives in the near future.


One of the biggest draws I think DIY will have over a pre-built is that it's an investment that can be made over time, starting with the most basic parts and adding things as people can afford them. The savings on finance charges alone make that very attractive, and it won't be too long before add in video and optical drives aren't needed at all anyway. (to still get legal HD content, not talking about all the pirates)


Paypal keeps track of the cost of everything luckily, I don't have to think about such things. You know there's no way I'm buying anything retail at brick and mortar stores.


Anyway I've said before we never need to fear Dell, at some point we'll just support them too.


Troy
 
#430 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by binary64 /forum/post/11549956


@tsmotw:


Yes, in your first htpc build, you were missing a front-end. There are loads to choose from: MCE2005, VMC, Meedio, MediaPortal, linuxMCE.. these all should completely hide the underlying operating system! No mouse, no start button.


So we are making a "xp/vista cd with all the programs slipstreamed into it" not "an htpc-program". And we're not going to slipstream; things will rolled out over the Internet. This means if ffdshow updates one day, we can update the system within hours. If someone finds a better configuration setting for ffdshow (for example), that too can be rolled out in a matter on minutes. It beats downloading a 4 GB iso every month.


About boot times, we understand. Minlogon is already implemented. EWF is also on the drawing board. I've never heard of EFI - I'll research that later! Thanks. My personal aim for tweaking Bluepill for boot time is 45 seconds from poweroff to watching TV/Video.


And, I don't think any on-board graphics (even Nvidia) can cope with h264, 1080p, 60fps, 7.1, AND on-the-fly BlueRay decryption! Plus, the graphics card has to be certified for BlueRay (the 8600gt is).

ok, it's a little clearer now. EFI is like the new bios, apple uses it and booting up a mac is really fast. I think there are motherboards out there that uses EFI.


edit: (I don't know for sure but HD-DVD uses VC-1 as the codec and bluray uses either vc-1 or MPEG2. So the onboard x3100 chip support both codecs with hardware acceleration and should play it flawlessly. ) Apparently vc-1 isn't h264 and x3100 only supports vc-1 and not h264.

Other option is the new radeon 2400/2600 pro/xt which uses less power and has UVD which offloads the videodecoding (vc1 and h264) off the cpu. It also has an HDMI out!!


Al though I support this project I don't think it's something for me, I live in Europe and the hardware here is always different, so i'll be looking into bluepill. Just a question of which OS you are thinking about using and which programs?
 
#431 ·
I think we must have both HD-DVD and BD supported from the very start. Let's use drives that are available right now, the XBox add-on, and the Pioneer BD reader. Otherwise we run the risk of having to revise motherboard and video board choices later. There are so many things with these hi-def formats that can go wrong -- just scan some of the other threads -- stuttering, blocking, video level expansion (including inconsistent behavior between SD, HD-DVD, and BD), audio, also integration into MCE (again inconsistent behavior in My Movies), who knows what else... Many of these issues shouldn't depend on the transport, so disk images might suffice, and more importantly, we don't need to wait for the LG dual reader.
 
#432 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema /forum/post/11555503


Anyway I've said before we never need to fear Dell, at some point we'll just support them too.


Troy

I've never seen a big box computer that would do what I wanted it to do. That's why I always built my own. What I don't like is wrestling with audio and video codecs, or trying to figure out which interface is best for viewing and listening to media. I have zero experience with ffdshow and its ilk (or MCE for that matter), but I'll embrace whatever front end and codecs this project comes up with that will make my multi-media life easier and give me better video and sound.


It's always cheaper to buy a general purpose computer than to build your own. I always tell my friends who want to do general things to buy a pre-built system, but I never do it myself anymore. There are always too many compromises. That's why I think this project has so much promise.
 
#433 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark /forum/post/11557057


I've never seen a big box computer that would do what I wanted it to do. That's why I always built my own. What I don't like is wrestling with audio and video codecs, or trying to figure out which interface is best for viewing and listening to media. I have zero experience with ffdshow and its ilk (or MCE for that matter), but I'll embrace whatever front end and codecs this project comes up with that will make my multi-media life easier and give me better video and sound.


It's always cheaper to buy a general purpose computer than to build your own. I always tell my friends who want to do general things to buy a pre-built system, but I never do it myself anymore. There are always too many compromises. That's why I think this project has so much promise.

For your friends who want a turnkey solution, I believe Kapone is about to have that covered like a blanket.
 
#434 ·
I've been working on making bluepill modular today. So that Meedio Ultimate can have its own independent bluepill update system. And the main Bluepill script will "call" the Ultimate script for nested updates.


This is exciting as now we can have seperate bluepill scripts .. eg, one for codecs.. 1, we can have a bluepill-style CCCP (perfect for installing on friends' computers), and 2, the ability to create ad-hoc solutions .. eg, "home office", "home theater", "for kids".
 
#435 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by videolover /forum/post/11557216


For your friends who want a turnkey solution, I believe Kapone is about to have that covered like a blanket.

That's great. I sometimes get a little fatigued being the computer "fix-it" guy for all my friends. I know a lot of people who wouldn't think of attempting to build their own system, no matter how much help they got via instructions, scripts, etc. For them, the kapone system will be a Godsend.
 
#436 ·
I think Kapone said that people using his systems don't even realize it's a PC running windows.


Correct me if I'm wrong Kapone, but it sounds like he's not making a general use PC at all. He seems to be headed towards a very dedicated, specialized, and locked down system.


Either way we will support third party builders using our works to create turnkey solutions, provided they support us fairly in return, so there will be plenty of options both ways.


Binary64, great! I sure do like the way you're headed there.


My work on the standardized PC hardware is to give even further levels of stability and predictability and other advantages that you can only get with consistent hardware, but we won't ever just limit our works to that and that alone.


I just grabbed a lightly used xbox360 hd-dvd kit off ebay for $115/free ship for the project.


Should I plan to test that internally AND externally and get an adapter or would USB externally be satisfactory?


Troy
 
#437 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema /forum/post/11557480


I think Kapone said that people using his systems don't even realize it's a PC running windows.


Correct me if I'm wrong Kapone, but it sounds like he's not making a general use PC at all. He seems to be headed towards a very dedicated, specialized, and locked down system.


Either way we will support third party builders using our works to create turnkey solutions, provided they support us fairly in return, so there will be plenty of options both ways.


Binary64, great! I sure do like the way you're headed there.


My work on the standardized PC hardware is to give even further levels of stability and predictability and other advantages that you can only get with consistent hardware, but we won't ever just limit our works to that and that alone.


I just grabbed a lightly used xbox360 hd-dvd kit off ebay for $115/free ship for the project.


Should I plan to test that internally AND externally and get an adapter or would USB externally be satisfactory?


Troy

I use mine externally. No issues doing it that way, and it's probably the way most folks will use theirs. If anything, external should be a little slower, so if it works that way, the internal drive should have no problems. (Famous last words.)
 
#438 ·
I see nothing out of the HTPC-ordinary with what Kapone's doing regarding "hiding Windows". This is the aim of any self-respecting front-end. Coupled with scripts to change your XP boot splash, instructions to change your BIOS splash, and windows wallpaper (for before the bp shell loads), and the BP splashes. All the same splash graphic - it should just like it keeps changing quality/resolution as machine boot. As it boots, the res will get higher
Anyway, this is my vision also. Noone will ever need to see the Start button or even a mouse cursor with bluepill (soon). My aim is for a normal person off the street to not be able to tell if it's windows, linux or a set top box.
 
#440 ·
I have done the increasing resolution bootsplash before on a computer I built for someone. There is a tool that allows you to change the boot image embedded in the BIOS image. Then GRUB can display a much nicer version at higher resolution. Then Linux can also display a nice, high resolution version.


The main problem is getting the initial boot image to look right. On many displays, by the time the boot image is displayed, it is already done booting, so it appears to flicker, which doesn't look very nice. Then there is the problem of extremely limited resolution and color depth.
 
#441 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by binary64 /forum/post/11557763


I see nothing out of the HTPC-ordinary with what Kapone's doing regarding "hiding Windows". This is the aim of any self-respecting front-end. Coupled with scripts to change your XP boot splash, instructions to change your BIOS splash, and windows wallpaper (for before the bp shell loads), and the BP splashes. All the same splash graphic - it should just like it keeps changing quality/resolution as machine boot. As it boots, the res will get higher
Anyway, this is my vision also. Noone will ever need to see the Start button or even a mouse cursor with bluepill (soon). My aim is for a normal person off the street to not be able to tell if it's windows, linux or a set top box.

Yes, agreed, but I think Kapone's is going a step further to be locked down to where you can't get out of his shell and into the rest of the OS. (for enhanced reliability so people can't possibly mess it up)


Thanks guys. I didn't want to mess with converting it for internal anyway. I still do not plan to keep it. I'll test with both hd optical drives and dump them on ebay ASAP when I'm done with them hopefully before their value drops too bad so most of the money can be tossed right back into the dual format replacement.


Troy
 
#442 ·
Custom boot splash and windows splash sound cool, I've done that before too, but like Greeniguana pointed out it could just end up looking like flickers or like there's a problem if the display doesn't support all those resolutions like so many HD sets don't.


It may be better to have blank black screens if it turns out to whip through them so fast you can't enjoy the effect you're going for anyway. It'll be cool to see what you come up with either way.


Troy
 
#443 ·
What titles on Hd-dvd and blueray are the toughest and or highest quality to test with? Transformers? Got any links to a list?


Is the free Kong movie that comes with the drive a suitable title to test with? Some say the quality is really good, but how would it rank for a test disk?


I plan to grab HD versions of DVE for the calibration and optimization part of things, unless anyone has a better suggestion. I already own the SD version and like it pretty well.



Troy
 
#444 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcCinema /forum/post/11557480


I think Kapone said that people using his systems don't even realize it's a PC running windows.


Correct me if I'm wrong Kapone, but it sounds like he's not making a general use PC at all. He seems to be headed towards a very dedicated, specialized, and locked down system.

I have no desire to compete with Dell/HP/Gateway etc etc for general purpose systems. They can have that market. I want the "living room" market share, where they have very little market penetration even today. And then I wanna offer a total media solution for the whole house, that will be leaps beyond what these guys can offer. Can they do this as well? Sure, but you have to understand, for them to break even, they have to sell a couple of million systems...for me turn in a decent profit, forget break even, I only need to sell......a fraction of that...



Yes, our systems will look and feel nothing like Windows in the geek sense. They are designed to blend in with your A/V and home integration envrionment, not for writing emails... (not that you can't do that as well....
)
 
#445 ·
"Just a question of which OS you are thinking about using and which programs?"


We are headed toward supporting all O/S's and a whole host of front ends, which can all be installed together for the ultimate "taste testing" type of system where you can multi boot linuxMCE, xp, mce2005, and Vista and flip around though all the popular frontends also with the greatest of ease. Plus with the option to install only what O/S you want specifically or only the front end and apps you want. Applications will also be included like Firefox and possibly Thunderbird, all the needed codecs for any common internet video and audio files, plugins needed for browsing and using the web, flash etc, to make all the O/S's as similar in function and complete and working "out of the box" as possible. In addition VMC and MCE will include a whole host of preconfigured and working plugins like mymovies, netflix and blockbuster, commercial skip, etc just like Binary64 already has Meedios stuffed with it's load of add ons. FFdshow, Haali media splitter, Anydvd-hd, MPC, Zoomplayer, Powerdvd, Eventghost, 7zip, perhaps down the line BeyondTV, Sage, you name it. Whatever we can "get away with" legally and "reproduce reliably". Some things may need to be added by the user manually if legal restrictions get in the way (anydvd-hd, dvdshrink, dvdfabdecrypter for example) but even still some programs setup and making it all work together can be automated even if we can't automate their download. There is tricky legal ground to tiptoe around with certain things as you can imagine but we're going to be 100% legal about it while still making it all 100% open.


You'll need the standardized hardware platform for some of the full automation to get everything all at once and have it all just work without much if any fiddling on the users part, but at the same time we are also headed towards making it as hardware open as possible (requiring some user setup) so you can get the same features on any machine.


When it's all complete you should be able to flip through OS's, frontends, multiboot, and do everything you can imagine with zero effort just from your remote control.


This will put everything right there for you to test and follow progress of them all, to easily compare them, or just use what you ultimately like the best at any moment after you have tried them all. We'll have them all directly competing against eachother on the same systems without having to be "geek boy super genius" to get everything to work together and not stomp on and interfere with each other.


The standardized hardware platforms are being selected based on hardware that's available and the same worldwide. (well, probably not in other languages, just english, for now)


It will support variations of tuner cards and video standards also, so you aren't limited to just NTSC or just PAL, we're not just aiming for a US market we want every market we can manage. We are located on both coasts of the US and in the UK.


(speaking of which, we are well set up to become distributors of hardware or turnkey systems ourselves if we wanted to do that at some point) Just not under the same business name or licenses as the the non-profit.


It may be something to consider given our locations and how well that could work. It could be another way to help the non-profit continue and grow, and a way to allow us to be full time on this rather than part time.


As long as none of that is hidden and it's all disclosed up front I don't think it would cause a problem legally or a conflict of interest for the non-profit. However we'd need to find out for sure and we haven't discussed this possibility yet. We won't be exclusionary if we do go down that path though the Non-Profit will support all 3rd party system resellers that support us back.


Basically the whole hog, the entire world handed to you on a silver platter.

And the system is totally open for the user to add any software they want on top of what we have included. Nothing is locked down or limited but it will be heavily backed up and redundant, and easily recoverable.


Binary64 and Greeniguana when you see this software list please go over it

and make your own additions or subtractions in your own posts to follow and clarify what software you both already plan to cover for sure in the first release and what may need to be left for the future. Once we get a good solid list of hardware and software I'll assemble that info into the first post of the thread and create more of a faq there as has been suggested before.


Anyone that has better alternatives to the software posted or additions of your own you'd like to see included please chime in. Remember to try to stay with mostly open source so most things can just be on our disk and ready to work out of the box but do also include any retail stuff that you'd also like to see covered.


Openoffice, some kind of picture viewer and editor, winpar/winrar, tmpegencode, dvrmstoolbox, video editing stuff, winamp, foobar, kernel streaming and ASIO plugins, powertoys, microsoft freebies, admin and network monitoring tools, antivirus and anti spyware stuff?


Windows updates and security fixes


This is a LOT of software when you start really thinking about it...


Troy
 
#447 ·
I don't think that's going to help. True the projects are somewhat separate but they rely on each other heavily also. Plus I have to know easily my work doesn't contradict or interfere with yours and Greeniguana's and we all have to be on the same page to have a consistent experience across OS's.


We'd be doing ourselves a great disservice to think of them being very independent. They are co-dependant.



thank you for that done section..


Troy
 
#448 ·
My part is going to be pretty independent, but I do need a few things:


1) Windows can not mess with the partitioning. It needs to be able to be installed without messing up existing partitions.


2) The Windows partition should contain a special file saying that it was installed by Bluepill and whether it should/shouldn't be changed or removed if the LiveCD is inserted.


3) Windows should be able to read from and write to EXT2 partitions. This is required to allow it to change the boot priority and boot into Linux if necessary.


4) Windows should be able to automatically create a file of a certain format to communicate with Linux. We will eventually need to decide on the format of this file so that Windows can communicate all the things it will ever need to. The type of information that would go into this file would be something telling Linux that:

-Windows needs to be reinstalled

-a new version of Windows needs to be installed

-a complete backup/restoration of Windows needs to take place

-this HTPC should become a dedicated media server

-etc.
 
#449 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark /forum/post/11557057


.................................

It's always cheaper to buy a general purpose computer than to build your own. I always tell my friends who want to do general things to buy a pre-built system, but I never do it myself anymore. ...............

The only reason I went on about the Dell (especially about the potential "option" price of the upcoming LG dual-format drive), was that such a "system" might be a relatively economical way of buying a "box full" of parts and software - already put together and maybe considerably cheaper than buying individual parts from maybe several vendors with the added shipping, etc.


One specific advantage would be that if an off-the-shelf system could quickly be configured to work, the word could then go out - "buy this model Dell and get these additional options".


Everybody would then have their identical computer systems very soon - ready for final configuration.


After acquiring them, the owners' Step 1 might very well be to re-format the hard drive, and then undertake a re-configuration according to this project's specifications or software.


(BTW, I think the price mentioned in that article included a rather high-quality monitor, but I'm not positive about that. If that was the indeed the case, the system might cost significantly less.)


Just another .02.
 
#450 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve /forum/post/11562999


The only reason I went on about the Dell (especially about the potential "option" price of the upcoming LG dual-format drive), was that such a "system" might be a relatively economical way of buying a "box full" of parts and software - already put together and maybe considerably cheaper than buying individual parts from maybe several vendors with the added shipping, etc.


One specific advantage would be that if an off-the-shelf system could quickly be configured to work, the word could then go out - "buy this model Dell and get these additional options".


Everybody would then have their identical computer systems very soon - ready for final configuration.


After acquiring them, the owners' Step 1 might very well be to re-format the hard drive, and then undertake a re-configuration according to this project's specifications or software.


(BTW, I think the price mentioned in that article included a rather high-quality monitor, but I'm not positive about that. If that was the indeed the case, the system might cost significantly less.)


Just another .02.

I see where you're going with that idea. There might still be issues with wiping the hard drive clean and starting over with the OS install, media card reader and Firewire drivers, etc. Certainly, an individual would be hard pressed to find the parts of such a system cheaper if he/she bought them separately.
 
#451 ·
Here's some small project ideas for non-core contributors:


* Tell you what would be handy, is for someone to code an opensource utility that takes before/after snapshots of registry, file system and fs plugins to detect brick-level changes in text files, xml files and ini files. This can be done in any language, and can output a parsable stream to stdout for further processing.


* An app that goes full screen black with a slowly moving 1x1 white pixel - for screen testing.


* A set of iconic alpha-PNG pictures to depict different sound setups. These would be multiple series: physical connections (leads/sockets), number of speakers, speaker configuration (for 8 channels, there are 2 ways to position them), stereo angle (the front 2 speakers can be set at different angles).


* A mkv/vorbis file for testing stereo sound, quad, 5.1 7.1 and mono


* A list of all resolutions ever -leave out overscan variants and list the variants algorithm separately and I'll expand the list programmatically
 
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