BD-UP5000 Universal Player Samsung [OFFICIAL OWNERS THREAD] & FAQ

[snowtrooper1966]

I can confirm resume play works with Blu and standard def DVD. I does not work with my HD DVD's.
Again on the audio side, one poster commented that PCM was two channel, and another said PCM is how the advanced HD codecs are transmitted. A "bit" confusing.
Best,
snowtrooper1966

[hoyty]

Originally Posted by tostitobandito

To be clear, the bitstreaming of TrueHD/DTS-HD MA is the only audio feature dependent on HDMI 1.3. If the player (or some other piece of hardware prior to the AVR) decodes the TrueHD/DTS-HD MA rather than just bitstreaming it (as the 5000 is supposed to do, eventually, hopefully), then HDMI 1.3 is not necessary as any HDMI spec should support uncompressed audio.

I was including DD+ and the two flavors of DTS-HD in my count of 4, I haven't seen DD+ or DTS-HD (HR) on any non-HDMI 1.3 AVR. If you can get 5.1 PCM then yes HDMI 1.1 or higher should work as well.

[ethanj]

Anybody tried HD DVD PIP (like Warner IME or Universal U-Control)? Does it work properly and smoothly?

[hoyty]

Originally Posted by snowtrooper1966

Again on the audio side, one poster commented that PCM was two channel, and another said PCM is how the advanced HD codecs are transmitted. A "bit" confusing.
Best,
snowtrooper1966

Optical/coax can only handle two channel PCM(it was designed for CDs). Also right now (with firmware as of 12/18/2007) it appears that TrueHD is converted to two channel PCM even over HDMI. DTS-HD uses the compatible DTS stream which is embedded in the DTS-HD stream. TrueHD doesn't include a lower level stream, that is what DD+ is for.

[kwindrem]

Originally Posted by hoyty

I wanted to explain the DTS Re-Encode some are seeing. This was best explained in regards to the 360 which cannot support the output of lossless bitstreams. Players take the chosen sound format (LPCM, TrueHD, DTS-HD) and re-encodes it to 1.5 Mbps DTS. This is becuase it is the highest bit rate and quality that is supported 5.1 over Optical/Coax/Pre-1.3 HDMI. Any AVR that can decode DTS should be able to handle 1.5 Mbps. This was the best solution Microsoft could come up with for 360 and it appears that same solution is being used with the 5000.

My theory on the 7.1 with only 5.1 soundtrack is that the 5000 is incorrectly flagging the PCM. Has anyone tried disabling the rear surrounds in speaker setup to see if it controls 5.1/7.1 output?

I only see 7.1 via HDMI on my receiver after changing modes in the 5000's setup menu. Once the movie is playing, the AV receiver reports 5.1 or 2.0 depending on what audio track it's playing. Haven't looked at a disc with a 7.1 DD or PCM track yet.

Speaker setup has no effect on this behavior or anything in the digital system. Looks like it's just for the analog outs.

[kwindrem]

Originally Posted by sotie

- Last is SD 4:3 content. I tested a Simpsons episode and am upset to report that the image was 16:9, not 4:3. My Sony 60XBR would NOT let me change the display setting to Normal, Zoom, or Wide Zoom.

My Sony KDL46XBR2 lets me change aspect to correct the 5000's incorrectly stretching it. Connection is HDMI through a Pioneer Elite 82 with scaler turned off.

[ckelly33]

Originally Posted by crazyal

Is that the BD version?

Yep.

[kwindrem]

Originally Posted by SileasResearch

Setting PCM on the player forces the player to take all of its audio and downmix it into good old two channel digital audio, and output it that way. Bitstream (audiophile) means take the audio bitstream from the source material and shovel it out that way. Bitstream (reencode), see above.

I'm happily getting 5.1 or 7.1 PCM audio from the 5000 to my AV receiver via HDMI. SPDIF optical/coax would only support 2.0 however.

If you don't have an HDMI input to your AV receiver, you'll end up with the "two sheets of glass" to get mutlichannel sound to your it digitally. You can run multichannel analog audio between the two, but as many have pointed out the speaker management inside the 5000 is substandard.

Dolby Labs cringes about reencoding Dolby Digital stating firmly it was never designed for that. I've heard it and compounding the artifacts definitely becomes audible. The best way I can describe it as a rattle.

DTS uses a bit more bandwidth than Dolby Digital and even more if your receiver can ingest it at 96K. So it's better than reencoding back to DD. I've listened to the "reencode" bitstream mode at 96K and it sounds OK but not as good as mulitchannel PCM if you have that option. And if you have other options for speaker management, analog muitichannel audio would probably also be better than "reencode".

[kwindrem]

I have cought my 5000 outputting garbled audio on a couple of occations. Today was on Eagles Hell Freezes Over SD DVD -- DTS version. Audio was via HDMI in PCM mode. Here's some additional clues:

Pausing did NOT clear the problem, but fast forwarding did.

While it was happening, I heard front channel audio in the surrounds.

[kwindrem]

I noticed today that the 5000 turns itself off after some period of inactivity (between 40 and 60 minutes I think).

Can't find a way to disable the auto off or the screen saver.

In a way, maybe this is good. I use a universal remote to control my system and there are no power on/off commands (just a power toggle). So what is meant to turn the 5000 on could end up turning it off!

What I've done as a work around is to take all power on/off commands out of my system on/off macros. That leaves the 5000 off until I open the tray or hit play. Then when I'm done watching a movie, I let the 5000 turn itself off. To insure the 5000 eventually powers down, I put a stop command for the 5000 in my power off macro.

[kwindrem]

I've identified two problems with 1080p issues on my BD-UP5000:

1) The 5000 resets itself to 1080i.

2) I sometimes see noise in the image at 1080p60 using HDMI. (EDIT: also seen at 1080i but not as often.) This noise starts 1/4 to 1/2 the way down the screen then continues for the remainder of the picture. The transition from picture to noise moves up and down randomly. Replugging the cable between the 5000 and my AV receiver usually clears up the picture as does power cycling the 5000 or my AV receiver. Unplugging the cable from the receiver to the TV did not clear the problem.

System details:

AV receiver: Pioneer Elite 82
TV: Sony KDL46XBR2 (LCD)
5000 connected to the 82 via HDMI
AV receiver connected to TV via HDMI and also S-Video for other sources.

The cable from the AV receiver to the TV is 35' long. It's a BlueJeans Cable HDMI-2 which they claim is good for 50' at 1080p60. The noise does not "feel" like a cabling problem. If it were, I'd expect the problem would persist after replugging cables. Also interestingly, the cable that clears up the problem is the short one between the Sammy and the receiver. Then again, HDMI is so fragile anything could be happening.

EDIT: saw the noise again tonight while the 5000 was outputting 1080i. That rules out the long cable.

I believe the 5000 resets it's video mode when it handshakes with the 82 and the TV isn't plugged in. In this case, I think the 82 is acting as the sync for the handshake rather than a repeater and it does so at 1080i (I think). This allows the 82 to get HDMI audio when the TV is turned off.

I don't have a problem with the 5000 negotiating a different rate in this case, but it should NOT reset the setting in the menu!

EDIT: Re: resetting to 1080i: SileasResearch mentions that the manual describes "HDMI Auto Detection Function" (page 21) that probably describes what's happening at least in my case. Here's what I believe is happening:

The AV receiver operates as a repeater until the TV connected to its HDMI output goes away. It decodes the signal from the 5000 in order to extract audio then reencodes it and passes it on to the TV.

When the AV receiver detects no TV connected, it becomes a sink for HDMI to keep the connection alive for the purpose of audio extraction. Unfortunately, the AV receiver apparently reports 1080i as its max resolution to the 5000. The 5000 resets accordingly. That's cool. But ...

My Sony TV drops HDMI communications when you switch to another input. The AV receiver then switches into the mode described above.

When the TV comes back on line, the AV receiver becomes a repeater again and the TV reports 1080p60 capability through the AV receiver. The 5000 SHOULD reset to 1080p60 but it does not.

That's the bug/limitation: The 5000 is confusing a user selection for desired resolution with the negotiated "maximum resolution" satisfies limitations in the devices in the HDMI chain. The negotiated resolution should not reset the user selection.

I don't see a workaround for this with the current behavior of the 5000.

I have reconfigured my system to use HDMI between the AV receiver and the TV where possible using the receiver as the video converter, minimizing the scenarios where the TV doesn't sink the HDMI signal but there is still that possibility.

Fortunately I haven't noticed much difference between 1080i and 1080p60 at least on 24-frame material (no 1080p60 material in house). So for now I'll live with 1080i.

Adding an "AUTO" resolution user setting would allow the 5000 to negotiate the best rate possible. If set to a fixed resolution, it probably should not output video unless the device is capable of that resolution.

[tostitobandito]

That's one hell of a long cable. If Monster made one of those, it would be well into four figures.

Seriously though, I have the same TV as you so I'll be curious to test when my 5000 arrives.

[Irrenarzt]

I have the same Blue Jeans cable and it works great.

[Herve]

Originally Posted by arbitrage000

Can I come over and watch!! I'll bring a PS3 and XA2 for comparison. I sit 8ft from my 50" so 8ft from a 120" would be insane!!

arbitrage000, you have a PM.

[SileasResearch]

Originally Posted by kwindrem

I'm happily getting 5.1 or 7.1 PCM audio from the 5000 to my AV receiver via HDMI. SPDIF optical/coax would only support 2.0 however.

I should clarify - when I was talking about PCM, I was talking about out the S/PDIF (coax or optical). Granted, HDMI can carry multiple PCM signals. The problem is that we are mixing many layers of protocol here, and using terms not always consistantly.

So, keep this in mind:

HDMI and S/PDIF (coax or optical) are lower level parts of the interface. The specify physical, electrical, and foundation communication protocols. They have different connectors, differing signals, and differing maximum datarates.

Linear PCM (LPCM), various Dolby Formats, and various DTS formats are types of packaging for audio data. Each of these can then support different numbers of channels. Each of these different formats require different data rates, and the different configurations of each has impact on the data rates.

So, when you start looking at all of these, it should become apparent that a thinner pipe (like S/PDIF) cannot carry some of the more demanding applications, like multi-channel LPCM or advanced Dolby and DTS formats.

Downmixing will need to be used to fit the data from a higher level format into the little pipe.

Various levels of HDMI provides different datarates (and ability to understand that it is carrying certain formats via flags and such).

I hope this helps a bit more to explain.

[SileasResearch]

Originally Posted by kwindrem

Dolby Labs cringes about reencoding Dolby Digital stating firmly it was never designed for that. I've heard it and compounding the artifacts definitely becomes audible. The best way I can describe it as a rattle.

Dolby E was designed specifically for up to 10 encoding cycles. This is used to transmit multichannel audio over the existing AES/BEU digital audio infrastructure of production, where every step of the way, something is getting added or overlaid, from the studio / production truck to national to satellite to local to cable operator, etc. Dolby E is not for consumer products.

AC3 (Dolby Digital) was actually designed specifically for the 384Kbit ATSC broadcast, and then was put in movie theaters along the way at 340Kbit.

DTS is another story, considering it was not their codec at all (it's APT's X-100 audio over ISDN codec).

Fundamentally, however, AC3 is a spectral codec, and thus is not good for reencode cycles. DTS (APT x100, that is) is a waveform codec, and can thus suffer some re-encoding, but both degrade on multiple cycles.

[audiomixer]

Originally Posted by snowtrooper1966

Greetings!
I will reiterate that I am very happy with the picture coming out of the 5K. My past experience with the XA2 on my Avical calibrated Samsung 61" DLP has shown me that even though a film may be mastered in HD, there still is a big gap in PQ. My HD DVD copy of the John Wayne film “The Searcers" looks better than some of the newest releases. I think the statement made by SileasResearch was right on the money! We are simply getting to see all the warts in the source material. If you are complaining about bad PQ out of the 5K, I suggest watching a digital generated image from Cars or Meet the Robinsons. I bet you will not see the same sort of video noise that is bothering you on other HD media films. Even my image is not perfect. Besides having to deal with the variations of film stock and mastering tech, I have a DLP which produces a SSE effect. Basically I see what others may call video noise, but it is actually the screen material of the TV. Every setup has it's own variables that may affect perceived PQ.
That said, I am very happy with the PQ sent to my TV via the 5K!
Best,
snowtrooper1966

That's what I wanted to hear! I just picked mine up today...Hooking it up with a new pre/pro over Xmas!

[dloose]

Originally Posted by hoyty

Optical/coax can only handle two channel PCM(it was designed for CDs). Also right now (with firmware as of 12/18/2007) it appears that TrueHD is converted to two channel PCM even over HDMI. DTS-HD uses the compatible DTS stream which is embedded in the DTS-HD stream. TrueHD doesn't include a lower level stream, that is what DD+ is for.

Little off thread but: I don't think this is always true. I can output PCM from a DVD player (a Panny 25 right now) to my Elite 27X and it produces DD or DTS 5.1 just fine. Users in this thread indicate the 5000 does this as well.

[ChicagoTC]

A bit late to the party but I had a good surprise when I got home. I ordered from BBFB last Thursday and I am still "in process". However, the UPS guy disagrees as it was on my step when I got home.

I'm willing to test anything not yet addressed, my system is below

Integra 9.8 pre/pro
Emotive IPS-1 AMP
Toshiba A2 HD-DVD
Samsung 56" 1080P DLP
Oppo 980

[BenDover]

What does bbfb stand for, best buy for business?

[SileasResearch]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTC

A bit late to the party but I had a good surprise when I got home. I ordered from BBFB last Thursday and I am still "in process". However, the UPS guy disagrees as it was on my step when I got home.

I'm willing to test anything not yet addressed, my system is below

Integra 9.8 pre/pro
Emotive IPS-1 AMP
Toshiba A2 HD-DVD
Samsung 56" 1080P DLP
Oppo 980

If you are looking for things to test, look at the audio areas on the FAQ to see what says TBD or needs more testing. PM me the results and I'll post it up. Thanks!

[ChicagoTC]

Sileas,

Not a problem, if you still want those hi-res pics and I can take a few before I put it into the system.

Yes BBFB is Best Buy for Business

[lalittle]

SileasResearch,

Thanks for the extra clarification regarding you and your guests' reaction to the picture quality issues. Based on your last post on this subject, it seems like you're thinking is that the "grain" issue is essentially a limitation of the format and system -- i.e. that you're seeing film grain combined with compression artifacts, and that the resulting image is simply the nature of the beast. Is this generally correct?

I think that what both myself and others here are noticing is the surprisingly low number of "terrific picture!" reactions that we were expecting from this player. We all understand that this is a consumer product and cannot compete with film or professional digital cinema, but even within this context it seems like your general reaction is "less than thrilled" (please forgive me if I'm mistaken in this respect.) Maybe this is just because of the extreme anticipation of this player, combined with some highly critical analysis, but it really stands out that there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm in this thread for the 5000 at this point, which I think is surprising a lot of people.

Is this an inaccurate characterization of your reaction? Do you think that we've just gotten "overly side-tracked" by a few of these issues? Is it that HD players have been out for long enough that we've come to expect a high quality picture, and are now more concerned with the OTHER details?

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm being critical of you, because nothing could be further from the truth. You're simply at ground zero when it comes to this player and it's performance, so I'm very interested in fully understanding your reactions.

Thanks again,

Larry

[CCDAstro]

Thanks for the extra clarification regarding you and your guests' reaction to the picture quality issues. Based on your last post on this subject, it seems like you're thinking is that the "grain" issue is essentially a limitation of the format and system -- i.e. that you're seeing film grain combined with compression artifacts, and that the resulting image is simply the nature of the beast. Is this generally correct?

Excellent question. This also begs the question: Is the amount of compression used a decision by the studio or is that locked at some level by the format standards? On a practical level, is it possible (or already done?) to produce discs with fewer or no extras and use that space for better video and/or audio?

T - 3 days for my 5000.........

[tmu77]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTC

Sileas,

Not a problem, if you still want those hi-res pics and I can take a few before I put it into the system.

Yes BBFB is Best Buy for Business

ChicagoTC, yes please attach hi-res inside pictures of the unit here. The closer to the individual parts the better (though we can probably zoom-in better as it's hi-res).

[narkspud]

Originally Posted by kwindrem

My Sony KDL46XBR2 lets me change aspect to correct the 5000's incorrectly stretching it. Connection is HDMI through a Pioneer Elite 82 with scaler turned off.

Many Sony HD sets won't let you change aspect ratios with HD content, and that includes upscaled SD DVDs. The workaround, such as it is, is to output at 480p and have the Sony do the upscaling.

[hifi]

Originally Posted by tmu77

Those of you who can do this, can you please clarify the format compatibility and include/update these into the FAQ?

ie: we have the manual stating DVD+R cannot be played. We have hifi stating he cannot play them. But I have seen other posts saying both DVD+R and DVD+R DL can be played and FAQ is hinting they can be played:

From the FAQ:
Does it play DVD-R, DVR+R, and DVD+R DL?

Seems like it from our experience. The manual is pretty explicit on this stuff. Check there first.

I was referring to Blu-ray content (BDMV) burned to a DVD+R. I could play DVD+R and DVD+R DL with VIDEO_TS content just fine, I stated this in a earlier post. That being said the booktype on my DVD+R burns was DVD-ROM, I don't think I have anything that doesn't set the booktype to -ROM.

[mraub]

I just got the 9.8 myself and would prefer the UP5000 to 2 separate units IF all the high resolution audio tracks can get from the UP5000 to the 9.8 digitally. HDMI would be ideal, but I have no problem with a coax/optical feed, if that works best.

Don't be afraid to stay up late to play with your new toy. Take the day off tomorrow, you have my permission.

Originally Posted by ChicagoTC

I'm willing to test anything not yet addressed, my system is below

Integra 9.8 pre/pro
Emotive IPS-1 AMP
Toshiba A2 HD-DVD
Samsung 56" 1080P DLP
Oppo 980

[ChicagoTC]

23Mbs worth of pics below. I'm in no hurry to get it in as I have things I'm still working out with my Integra. Let me know if there is anything else specifically I missed.

[ChicagoTC]

Part 2