TBS-HD and Seinfeld

[videojanitor]

Interesting. Then that would mean that Sony has the ways and means to provide HD content to Pathfire, which in turns means the only reason that "Seinfeld" is not available in HD is because they (Sony) choose not to provide it.

[URFloorMatt]

Well, Sony would have to provide edited versions of Seinfeld HD to fit in current 30-minute timeslots. If they're editing for time, they might as well edit for 16:9 as well. I'd wager there's a better than not chance that Seinfeld HD, when it comes, will be cropped. Mainstream viewers expect 16:9 with their HD. A 4:3 aspect ratio is probably going to cause more confusion than praise.

Or maybe they'll go the Seinfeld 2.0 route, shift the picture, and provide trivia/content in the empty space? In any case, I seriously doubt Sony would pass through Seinfeld in 4:3 with empty pillars. Frankly, I'm surprised more companies haven't tried at least advertising in the dead space. Perhaps that could even be a compromise that gets TBS unedited, network versions of Seinfeld HD. After all, you can't fastforward through ads that appear during the actual program.

[Jeremy W]

Originally Posted by URFloorMatt

After all, you can't fastforward through ads that appear during the actual program.

I think TBS is already well aware of that fact.

[Marcus Carr]

Yeah, because there just aren't enough ads during TV shows.

[NetworkTV]

Originally Posted by videojanitor

Interesting. Then that would mean that Sony has the ways and means to provide HD content to Pathfire, which in turns means the only reason that "Seinfeld" is not available in HD is because they (Sony) choose not to provide it.

Don't forget, Sony is only the DVD distributer. NBC/Universal and Castlerock own the original production. Of course, we all know how top notch those Universal guys are when it comes to releasing stuff properly.

[URFloorMatt]

According to Wikipedia, Castle Rock (Warner Bros.) holds ownership rights, but Sony holds Castle Rock's distribution rights. There's nothing to suggest that distribution is limited to DVD, so I would assume it includes HD disc as well (in addition to syndication and, presumably, online, etc.).

After all, why would Sony have bothered with HD remastering if they didn't own the rights? At the time this all started, Warner was HD-DVD exclusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Pictures_Television (See Note 4)

There's also nothing to suggest that NBC/Universal has any existing rights to Seinfeld (though obviously they remain buddy-buddy in hopes that NBC can be the home of Seinfeld's next series, were he to create one).

[zEli173]

Originally Posted by URFloorMatt

Well, Sony would have to provide edited versions of Seinfeld HD to fit in current 30-minute timeslots. If they're editing for time, they might as well edit for 16:9 as well. I'd wager there's a better than not chance that Seinfeld HD, when it comes, will be cropped. Mainstream viewers expect 16:9 with their HD. A 4:3 aspect ratio is probably going to cause more confusion than praise.

Or maybe they'll go the Seinfeld 2.0 route, shift the picture, and provide trivia/content in the empty space? In any case, I seriously doubt Sony would pass through Seinfeld in 4:3 with empty pillars. Frankly, I'm surprised more companies haven't tried at least advertising in the dead space. Perhaps that could even be a compromise that gets TBS unedited, network versions of Seinfeld HD. After all, you can't fastforward through ads that appear during the actual program.

I sincerely hope not, the show was framed for 4:3 and it would be an utter shame to see it cropped.

I also seriously doubt that it will happen for many reasons, the foremost being that there already were HD remasters produced for the DVD sets. The remasters for the DVD's could just have easily been 16:9, but they aren't. The importance here is not just that an HD version already exists for syndicators to use, but the that the decision to preserve the original aspect ratio is also an indication that the powers that be (which probably include Seinfeld himself) do not want to see the appearance altered.

And, as much as the joe six packs of the world would wonder how the show could be HD if it's not widescreen, there are so many die hard fans who will make a big stink if Seinfeld is butchered.

Finally, there is precedent for 4:3 HD programming. The Wizard of Oz comes to mind, an example where, I believe, TNT has not been shy about promoting the HD broadcast.

[videojanitor]

Originally Posted by NetworkTV

Don't forget, Sony is only the DVD distributer.

I think they are more involved than that. The syndicated episodes have a Sony Pictures Television logo at the end.

[hdguru]

The only 4:3 series being broadcast in HD that I'm aware of is "Northern Exposure" on UHD. The 4:3 picture is centered with black bars.

Our local CW station (Tribune owned) is broadcasting 2.5 Men in HD via Pathfire, but the Pathfire to GVG server conversion is being done for all Tribune stations at their Indianapolis station and then retransmitted to the stations.

WOF and Jeopardy are being downlinked in linear video by the CBS affiliate.

[NetworkTV]

Originally Posted by zEli173

I sincerely hope not, the show was framed for 4:3 and it would be an utter shame to see it cropped.

I also seriously doubt that it will happen for many reasons, the foremost being that there already were HD remasters produced for the DVD sets. The remasters for the DVD's could just have easily been 16:9, but they aren't. The importance here is not just that an HD version already exists for syndicators to use, but the that the decision to preserve the original aspect ratio is also an indication that the powers that be (which probably include Seinfeld himself) do not want to see the appearance altered.

And, as much as the joe six packs of the world would wonder how the show could be HD if it's not widescreen, there are so many die hard fans who will make a big stink if Seinfeld is butchered.

Finally, there is precedent for 4:3 HD programming. The Wizard of Oz comes to mind, an example where, I believe, TNT has not been shy about promoting the HD broadcast.

On the other hand, "Knight Rider" and "Hogan's Heros" have been shown in some degree of cropped widescreen. The movie channels also crop wide aspect ratios to 16x9 on a regular basis. There's precedent for both to happen.

[hdguru]

The Hogan's Heros actually looked very good as they used a moving mask and did not distort the overall original picture. It wasn't quite 16:9, but it looked so good, they let it air that way, with just a touch of black on the edges. Not to mention that the shows were simply funny...in any language or format. Slapstick? Of course!

[zEli173]

Originally Posted by NetworkTV

On the other hand, "Knight Rider" and "Hogan's Heros" have been shown in some degree of cropped widescreen. The movie channels also crop wide aspect ratios to 16x9 on a regular basis. There's precedent for both to happen.

Right, there certainly is precedent for both. But cropping a movie from its OAR is a far less severe alteration (and, as you probably know, sometimes isn't cropping but just opening the mat). Some viewers and/or producers may be no less offended when movies are aired in non-OAR, but to many/most it is hardly noticeable or preferable.

And my understanding of the Hogans Hero's remaster is that it is most akin to an open mat process.

As for Knight Rider, I agree that is an analogous case (unless, I guess, you want to argue that the wide screen look is more fitting for an old action series than an old sitcom). But I think it's clear that we're talking about shows with very different legacies. Just the airings alone tell you that. Knight Rider is in some sort of sparing syndication on Universal HD. To the degree Kight Rider may have been butchered (and I'm not saying it was), there weren't too many viewers or producers who cared. In fact, I'm happy to see Knight rider cropped if only because its limited appeal makes it a good test case for the process. I watched some of those Knight Rider airings on UHD simply out of intrigue for the remastering.

Seinfeld's syndication, on the other hand, is of an epic proportion. So while cropping may have happened to Knight Rider, it's hard to fathom that viewers and producers of perhaps the most revered and popular show in TV history would allow Seinfeld to meet that fate.

[URFloorMatt]

Did they crop Star Trek for the remaster?

Anyway, my point was they might crop the syndicated/edited versions because they're already slicing them up anyway, and the fanbase isn't going to cry foul so long as preserved DVD/HD disc versions are released.

EDIT: According to Wikipedia, the remastered Star Trek is airing cropped in Japan but not here (although, it's not running in HD here anyway).

[Stan54]

Regardless of any efforts to the contrary, 4:3 material will never be acceptably presented in 16:9 format. ............. Cutting and pasting and stretching and shrinking will never receive the unreserved approval of a single AV Forum poster.

Upconversion in terms of sizing does not work. Why agonize over it?

[NetworkTV]

Originally Posted by Stan54

Regardless of any efforts to the contrary, 4:3 material will never be acceptably presented in 16:9 format. ............. Cutting and pasting and stretching and shrinking will never receive the unreserved approval of a single AV Forum poster.

When has that ever stopped a studio or network from releasing material in the incorrect aspect ratio?

Until Alan, David or Ken head up the boards of these companies, they'll do whatever they want - despite our objections.

[Thomas Desmond]

Originally Posted by zEli173

And my understanding of the Hogans Hero's remaster is that it is most akin to an open mat process.

I doubt this is the case -- "Hogan's Heroes" was shot full frame on 35 mm film, which has an aspect ratio of something like 1.37:1. Open matte really wouldn't add much on the sides.

What probably does allow the cropping of "Hogan's Heroes" to work pretty well is the amount of protecting that was done to compensate for the massive amounts of overscan on TVs back in the sixties. How would this work? The "academy aperture" for full frame 35 mm is 0.864 x 0.630 "; the TV "safe action" area is only 0.713 x 0.535 ". If you take the height of the "safe action" area (0.535") and the width of the "academy aperture" (0.864"), you end up with an aspect ratio of 14.5:9. With the narrow black bars on the side, that's getting pretty close to the actual aspect ratio of "Hogan's Heroes" as transmitted on HDNet.

I suspect that the same technique could work well on many older shows -- and it isn't really "tampering with the artistic intent" of the original composition all that much, since the producers were aware that anything outside of the "safe action" area was at risk of being cropped by overscan on many home receivers, anyway.

While this does leave black bars on the side, those bars are pretty narrow, and perhaps less likely to generate complaints from viewers who want a full widescreen image.

Originally Posted by URFloorMatt

Did they crop Star Trek for the remaster?

CBS/Paramount is creating both 4:3 and 16:9 HD masters for "Star Trek", per the CBS Domestic Television website.

[zEli173]

Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond

I doubt this is the case -- "Hogan's Heroes" was shot full frame on 35 mm film, which has an aspect ratio of something like 1.37:1. Open matte really wouldn't add much on the sides.

What probably does allow the cropping of "Hogan's Heroes" to work pretty well is the amount of protecting that was done to compensate for the massive amounts of overscan on TVs back in the sixties. How would this work? The "academy aperture" for full frame 35 mm is 0.864 x 0.630 "; the TV "safe action" area is only 0.713 x 0.535 ". If you take the height of the "safe action" area (0.535") and the width of the "academy aperture" (0.864"), you end up with an aspect ratio of 14.5:9. With the narrow black bars on the side, that's getting pretty close to the actual aspect ratio of "Hogan's Heroes" as transmitted on HDNet.

You misunderstood me. When I said akin to open matte, I meant exactly what you described; a process by the show is re-framed in a wide screen ratio by including portions of the original film which were once cropped out.

[scowl]

Originally Posted by zEli173

You misunderstood me. When I said akin to open matte, I meant exactly what you described; a process by the show is re-framed in a wide screen ratio by including portions of the original film which were once cropped out.

Those portions don't exist. The 4:3 area for these TV shows takes up nearly the full frame of the film. There was no matting or cropping.

[Doctor]

Still no signs of Seinfeld in HD? Time for a letter writing campaign to TBS.

[Knicks_Fan]

Still no signs of Seinfeld in HD? Time for a letter writing campaign to TBS

Still no signs of anything except baseball in HD in "The Broadcast Streched" channel.

[ToddUGA]

Originally Posted by Knicks_Fan

Still no signs of anything except baseball in HD in "The Broadcast Streched" channel.

Which is why I programmed it out of my guide. I hate stretching.

[MRM4]

Originally Posted by Knicks_Fan

Still no signs of anything except baseball in HD in "The Broadcast Streched" channel.

What a waste of a channel. Fox Sports Net HD has more HD programming than TBS and they're hardly on the air. I would have rather had something like Speed Channel HD, Weather Channel HD, or something else that actually has HD content than a channel that shows nothing in HD.

[Jeremy W]

TBS duped providers into carrying the HD channel, because they had some baseball playoff games in HD. After that, they basically just stopped doing HD.

[hdguru]

No question, Turner used the baseball and their "clout" derived from their various other cable channels to get the TBS-HD channel assignment on the sats and cable systems for the long term. Obviously...they weren't really ready...just as when TNT-HD premiered with very little HD programming. It took them some time to get HD masters for Law & Order and to begin producing their own programs in HD.

As for TBS, they're not even showing "Raymond," "King of Queens," and "Yes Dear" in HD, when all of those episodes are available in HD.

Stretch-O-Vision is NOT a pretty thing.

[hondo21]

Or "The Office" for that matter. But the original show "10 Items or Less" are in HD. Still a vast wasteland of non-HD stretched nonsense for the most part.

[bendog2784]

Stretch-O-Vision is NOT a pretty thing.

You said it man. I actually stumbled upon Seinfeld on TBS HD the other day.It wasn't pretty.

[Berk32]

Originally Posted by Jeremy W

TBS duped providers into carrying the HD channel, because they had some baseball playoff games in HD. After that, they basically just stopped doing HD.

Some?
They had all of them for the first round (divisional series) - along with 1 half of the 2nd round (championship).

They'll be back with a weekly Sunday afternoon game in about 6 weeks....

As for the HD availability of anything else on this channel.. ugh...

[Jeremy W]

Originally Posted by Berk32

Some?
They had all of them for the first round (divisional series) - along with 1 half of the 2nd round (championship).

I hate baseball, so I wasn't aware of how much of the playoffs TBS actually had.

[chad473]

I wish they would have given us animal planet or cnn, even if they aren't full time HD, than this garbage channel with our adds the other day. I gave Seinfeld a look out of curiousity and it was horrific.

[Doctor]

When people prefer to watch the SD version of your channel to the HD version then you know your channel sucks.