ATSC Converter Box comparisons

[CEB II]

Originally Posted by biker19

Today is the day that either a large number of coupons will be used or go to waste. I believe a large majority of coupons requested the day the CECB coupon program started have today as their expiration date. I wonder if they'll have a statistic that - unused expired coupons.

They aren't being used because only a fraction of the promised STBs with the desired features are available, and of those available, the most desired await correction of a major defect. Another well run, cost-effective Government program. Can't wait until they take over health care.

[dbsc]

Originally Posted by CEB II

They aren't being used because only a fraction of the promised STBs with the desired features are available, and of those available, the most desired await correction of a major defect. Another well run, cost-effective Government program.

My second one doesn't expire just yet but I'm concerned that a good box won't come out in time. Any word on if they're going to lift the silly time limitation or extend it to something reasonable?

Originally Posted by CEB II

Can't wait until they take over health care.

The US ranks #37. Most of the ones above us are socialized systems. Now please, *please* don't start the OT political arguments..

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by CEB II

They aren't being used because only a fraction of the promised STBs with the desired features are available, and of those available, the most desired await correction of a major defect. Another well run, cost-effective Government program. Can't wait until they take over health care.

It is very true that only a fraction of the approved CECB are available, not the government's fault because they are done approving those.

I think the only people that know of any defects are nerds and geeks that get on forums. I don't think many of the general public know of any of these defects.

For a change being forced on the public the CECB program doesn't seem horrible. Though it is hard to compare because government required things like taxes or licenses have been in place for a long time.

probably most of the unused coupons are due to cable customers that never needed them in the first place. people mistakingly for who knows how many reasons got the coupons. also maybe the people were tempted to become cable customers previously and the transition pushed them to that choice, maybe with marketing from cable involved too.

[holl_ands]

NTIA issued an ALERT re Microprose MPI-500PT (with Analog Pass Thru):
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art....html?nid=3347

NTIA advises that although the MPI-500 (without APT) is on CECB list, the revised
MPT-500PT with APT was found to have an (unspecified) "certification discrepancy".

So the CECB coupon would not be honored for the MPI-500PT until the discrepancy is resolved.

[holl_ands]

I'm sure the next CECB coupon redemption report will show a spike as those of us with
expiring coupons grit our teeth and chose the boxes we might be able to live with.

Still only one box with S-Video....but without APT or Smart Antenna.
Still only a few boxes with APT.
First of the "fixed" LGDT1111 based boxes just now showing up.....

[Rammitinski]

Originally Posted by johnpost

I think the only people that know of any defects are nerds and geeks that get on forums. I don't think many of the general public know of any of these defects.

True. My local CC has been selling the Zenith boxes by the truckloads, and I have yet to see one obviously returned unit.

Same with the flimsy, non-pass-thru, no-buttons-on-the-unit Magnavox when Walmart here had it.

I say, if your coupons are about to expire, just buy an April build Zenith and be done with it. You're probably not going to beat the PQ and the sensitivity, and it's a very well made unit overall. If something better comes out in the future, just pay in full or get coupons through someone you know. If they don't need them, maybe even offer them a few bucks for them. Then sell the old boxes on ebay or elsewhere, or give them away if you don't want them.

[Malouff]

Originally Posted by holl_ands

I'm sure the next CECB coupon redemption report will show a spike as those of us with
expiring coupons grit our teeth and chose the boxes we might be able to live with.

Still only one box with S-Video....but without APT or Smart Antenna.
Still only a few boxes with APT.
First of the "fixed" LGDT1111 based boxes just now showing up.....

Yes, there is only one available box with S-Video
However, some retailer have allowed pre-orders for the APEX DT250* also with S-Video.

I agree there are very few boxes with APT.

holl_ands this is what gets me so MAD about what the NTIA is doing with MicroProse as they were the only available CECB with the "fixed" LG SoC and with APT.

They were the answer to a lot of people with expiring coupons.

Yes, FreeDTVShop.com has started DTVPal orders but only for coupon dates 6/20 and beyond.

The DTVPal does have ATP but it does not have a LG SoC - in my mind they are saving money by using inferior parts but providing the TVGuide EPG in return.

I honestly don't know how Provantage was able to allow pre-orders for there DTVPal as we all know they will not be getting their shipments in time and will be violating NTIA rules.

I did not see NTIA give Provantage any notice on there site like MicroProse.
MaxMedia also didn't get any notice on the NTIA site.

I think the NTIA needs to have everyone involved in this Coupon Program be playing by the same rules.

I do however wonder what will happen to these unused expired coupons.
Will the funds go back into the program?

[Sammer]

Originally Posted by Malouff

The DTVPal does have ATP but it does not have a LG SoC - in my mind they are saving money by using inferior parts but providing the TVGuide EPG in return.

It's too soon to tell if they are inferior parts. Yes the Falcon Digital boxes use the same or similar parts but just as not all the boxes that use LG parts are of the same quality it's possible that the Echostar boxes may be better. Both my coupons are now redeemed and would have expired before 6/20 so I definitely want to hear of actual experience before spending full price on one.

[Malouff]

Originally Posted by Sammer

...Not all the boxes that use LG parts are of the same quality...

It is true that not all LG based boxes are built with the same quality -
some are plastic and poorly ventilated and others are metal and ventilated much better.
It is also true that not all LG based boxes have identical firmware running.

For a good example of two LG based boxes would be two that have been compared the Zenith and Digital Stream.

Both have been at the top of favorite lists with the Zenith higher than the Digital Stream.

One thing I do know about these CECBs using a PSIP EPG is that they are better when they use a simple Now/Next like the Zenith because they have to use more memory and CPU to show something more complex like the Digital Stream.

The Artec Pro is also running more than a Now/Next it has pages indicated by the xx/xx at the top in the next field.

Why do you think Zenith is running a Now/Next EPG?

This is probably one major reason why the Zenith performs better then the Digital Stream.

The other probable reason is that the Zenith is better ventilated.

Others can speculate that it is because LG/Zenith has special functions turned on in the Zenith Firmware but only LG/Zenith would know that.

[Malouff]

Originally Posted by Sammer

It's too soon to tell if DTVPal has inferior parts.... Yes the Falcon Digital boxes use the same or similar parts....but it's possible that the Echostar boxes may be better

I agree the DTVPal is different the the LG based boxes for a comparison.

The DTVPal is running a TVGuide EPG and the Falcon Digitals have NO EPG.
Only Dish Network and the Beta testers know how good it truly is.

Francie Bauer from Dish Network also didn't give my any useful information other than simply saying "Apparently we’re already working with the NTIA to make sure we’re good to go."

The NTIA also said all the other CRAP Converters were also good to go so I don't see any merit from his reply.

I will admit I did order a DTVPal only because of it's price and I am curious about this TVGuide EPG.

[avnstf]

The TV Guide style EPG (which I have on a couple of my HD recorder units) is so superior to the ones the others cecbs seem to have that that is why I'm waiting for the DTVPal!

[Malouff]

I agree the TVGuide EPG does look superior.
Hope the DTVPal has enough CPU and memory to run it well.
I don't want it to be the problem like extended PSIP EPG's have been.

[dbsc]

Originally Posted by Malouff

One thing I do know about these CECBs using a PSIP EPG is that they are better when they use a simple Now/Next like the Zenith because they have to use more memory and CPU to show something more complex like the Digital Stream.

Why do you think Zenith is running a Now/Next EPG?

Memory is cheap and the Digital Stream box appears to do just fine with it's single channel 12-hour EPG. It also doesn't take much CPU power to read in basic PSIP, the Digital Stream seems to do it quite happily in the background.

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a65.html

The Zenith has a now/next because the manufacturers of the Zenith wanted to maximize profits. There is no other good reason not to create a fully functional box.

[jwinters]

Which Insignia CECB have issues that a consumer needs to watch out for before buying?
I've seen posts that allude to an april 2008 fix on zenith and since it's supposed to be the same box would like to see a post that clearly indicates whether the best buy insignia boxes have issues to watch out for. best buy is selling boatloads of them with a december 2007 date on them. would like this info documented to help me get it returned and replaced should that be necessary.

[jwinters]

which cecb converter boxes run on 12v dc adaptor plug?

Will it be possible to use these in a car to provide a signal to a handheld/portable tv?

Looking for a way so these wonderful little products don't have to be trashed.

[Malouff]

jwinters you can look here to see what voltage those with a External Power Supply are using.

These External Power Supply CECBs can be used in a car or travel trailer but remember it will not work with movement.

Originally Posted by arcsin

The signal begins to break up at just a few miles per hour (parking lot speed) and reappears upon stopping. At ~20mph the unit is totally silent.

Zenith/Insignia/MicroProse I am sure are not going to maximize profits using a now/next because this is implemented in the firmware and that is certainly cheaper then memory or CPU.

I don't know if Digital Stream has any more memory then the Zenith/Insignia but highly doubt it, and I have seen several posts with people who have bought both the Digital Stream and Zenith and prefer the Zenith.

I do agree that the Digital Stream does look superior but looks are not everything.

The Digital Stream is also a good CECB and would probably be considered the #3 best by most with Zenith and Insignia at the top of currently available CECBs and this list can change at any given time.

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by jwinters

which cecb converter boxes run on 12v dc adaptor plug?

Will it be possible to use these in a car to provide a signal to a handheld/portable tv?

Looking for a way so these wonderful little products don't have to be trashed.

look for a thread in this subforum

12vdc converter box?

gives all the boxes with DC power input

DTV does not work in a moving vehicle, DC powered boxes would work when vehicle is stationary and you had a good enough antenna to give strong enough signal.

[SirVette]

Picked up the latest DTT900 sn near 380k.These are slick.

Originally Posted by hdtv

not the speed demon the Zenith DTT900 is. The DTX9900 completed a channel scan in 2:20 (minutes)...

The GE 22730 is a relative tortoise compared to the DTX9900. It took 5:08 (minutes) to scan all active channels....

If you’ve used any of LG’s stand-alone DTV receiver products before, you’ll recall how quickly they scan for available channels and build channel tables. In the Philadelphia market, LG’s tuners take about 30 seconds to scan and find all of the local ATSC broadcasts, which is still faster than any other ATSC set-top on the market.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com

I was going to time it- seconds to find about 25 Ch.

[holl_ands]

"CECB Features List - 27May2008" spread sheet update is attached.
If you don't have Excel capability, download a free viewer from Microsoft:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post13373061
See "LINKS" sheet to navigate to source of information.

1. CECB listed boxes moved to "AVAILABLE NOW/SOON":
AccessHD DTA-1020D, Apex DT250, Cadence DTV-9/DTVC-9, Coship N9988T,
Echostar DTVPal, Goodmind DTA-1000, Gridlink GLT-200, Lasonic LTA-260,
Microprose MPT-500 (not yet MPT-500PT), Venturer SB7766G & Winegard RC-DT09.
[May be able to preorder some boxes, depending on CECB Coupon expiration date.]

2. CECB listed boxes "NOT YET AVAILABLE" added since 22Apr version:
Alpha Digital AT-2016 (same as other MTC boxes?), Apex DT500,
Clear Tech CTDCB100, Craig Elect. Intl. CVD506, Daytek/Casti CAX-02,
Memorex MVCB1000, Skardin DTR-0727/0727L & Venturer STB7766G1.

3. Boxes added to "NOT YET ON CECB LIST":
Daytek/Casti CAX-03 & Microprose MPI-500PT (with Pass Thru).

4. Additional info. added for numerous other boxes....and added more "LINKS".

[Malouff]

Thanks for the update holl_ands I have updated the notlong links
http://holl-ands.notlong.com for your post
http://cecb-sheet.notlong.com for the zip file

I also think that holl_ands spreadsheet should be added to the Sticky thread.

I had no idea about the Cadence DTVC-9
Glad to see that there is a cheap LG based box out there - but we know it will have the audio problem.

As avnstf was saying both the Wikipedia and Official NTIA approved list are confusing for a lot of people as not everything is available and holl_ands does makes this distinction and also provides more information.

We can't of sticky each update so people can get his updates in two ways.

1. Not be lazy and do a simple search for "CECB Feature List" and for "holl-ands" for the poster
2. Use the notlong links - however they must be maintained or they will point to old information.
   I usually forget to update so they are not always very accurate

[ota.dt.man]

Originally Posted by holl_ands

"CECB Features List - 27May2008" spread sheet update is attached.
If you don't have Excel capability, download a free viewer from Microsoft:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post13373061
See "LINKS" sheet to navigate to source of information.

1. CECB listed boxes moved to "AVAILABLE NOW/SOON":
AccessHD DTA-1020D, Apex DT250, Cadence DTV-9/DTVC-9, Coship N9988T,
Echostar DTVPal, Goodmind DTA-1000, Gridlink GLT-200, Lasonic LTA-260,
Microprose MPT-500 (not yet MPT-500PT), Venturer SB7766G & Winegard RC-DT09.
[May be able to preorder some boxes, depending on CECB Coupon expiration date.]

2. CECB listed boxes "NOT YET AVAILABLE" added since 22Apr version:
Alpha Digital AT-2016 (same as other MTC boxes?), Apex DT500,
Clear Tech CTDCB100, Craig Elect. Intl. CVD506, Daytek/Casti CAX-02,
Memorex MVCB1000, Skardin DTR-0727/0727L & Venturer STB7766G1.

3. Boxes added to "NOT YET ON CECB LIST":
Daytek/Casti CAX-03 & Microprose MPI-500PT (with Pass Thru).

4. Additional info. added for numerous other boxes....and added more "LINKS".

When you have time, it would be great if you could add the following models to the Non-CECB section of your spreadsheet:

Originally Posted by Ken H

New & Improved! The Official AVS HDTV STB Synopsis - Winter 2008!
02/21/08 Update

Over The Air DTV/HDTV/Cable Clear QAM

Available Now:
· Samsung DTB-H260F $179 ATSC, Clear QAM
· Contemporary Research 232-ATSC $1050 ATSC, NTSC, Clear QAM, RS-232
· Tivax LX1000 $90 ATSC
· PrimeDTV PHD-205 $149 ATSC, Clear QAM, NTSC
· Pro-Brand / Digital Stream HD3150 $199
· Winegard RC-1010 $190 ATSC
· Digital Stream HD 5150 $219 ATSC
· CE Labs HD100AQ $240 ATSC
· Coby DTV-140 $139 ATSC (Clear QAM?)
· CaptiveWorks CW-3000HD $470 ATSC, FTA, Clear QAM, (Linux PC)
· TiVo HD $299 ATSC, CableCARD, Clear QAM, NTSC

Last edited by Ken H : 03-22-08 at 05:11 PM.

Thanks

[tdcrone]

Originally Posted by rdgcss

2 weeks ago it was: 11 million issued, 1 million redemed

Googling when the other one went offline found this:
https
www
dtv2009
gov
Stats.aspx

Colons, dots, and slashes as appropriate. Sorry, I don't post much. =)

As of 5/21, 14.6m requested, 1.9m redeemed.

At 200k/day, 31 days to go. I've been watching the count from the beginning and there hasn't been a substantial ramp, so the 200k number may be pretty consistent all the way to the end. (I vaguely recall from the beginning that requests were households, so figure 2 coupons per. If I'm wrong then we'll know when it gets updated again.)

Last week they updated Wednesday afternoon EST (oh look it says 4pm =) so probably it will update again tonight.

-TC

[PeterTheGeek]

Originally Posted by tdcrone

As of 5/21, 14.6m requested, 1.9m redeemed.

At 200k/day, 31 days to go. I've been watching the count from the beginning and there hasn't been a substantial ramp, so the 200k number may be pretty consistent all the way to the end. (I vaguely recall from the beginning that requests were households, so figure 2 coupons per. If I'm wrong then we'll know when it gets updated again.)

Goverment CECB Coupon Stats

Intresting, I took the total mailed, minus the redeemed, minus the active and came up with 269 expired without being redeemed. Not as bad as I would have thought. Of course the 90 day only hit the first three day of mailings so that number should go up quickly.

[DigaDo]

I ordered my coupons mid-morning on 1/1/08. These coupons had an expiration date of 5/23/08. (These coupons were used to purchase Zeniths.) A relative ordered coupons in the afternoon on 1/1/08. These coupons had an expiration date of 5/27/08. (These coupons were used to purchase Zeniths.)

The statistics posted 5/21/08 showed 269 expired coupons. These expired coupons must be among the very first ordered on 1/1/08 by "early birds." Perhaps they didn't find any "worms" to their liking.

The statistics posted 5/28/08 show 183,583 expired coupons. That's a lot of "worms" that got away.

[dattier]

Originally Posted by DigaDo

The statistics posted 5/21/08 showed 269 expired coupons. These expired coupons must be among the very first ordered on 1/1/08 by "early birds." Perhaps they didn't find any "worms" to their liking.

Perhaps.  Other possibilities include coupons lost in the mail, or consumers who realized that they didn't need CECBs.

[bicker1]

Or perhaps they didn't read the information and think they can use the coupons later.

[tdcrone]

Originally Posted by tdcrone

(I vaguely recall from the beginning that requests were households, so figure 2 coupons per. If I'm wrong then we'll know when it gets updated again.)

As so often happens, it looks like I was indeed wrong and the coupons are 100k/day, 700k/week, so ~2 months remaining if you figure some percentage of people are waiting to the end. (Plus it looks like ~850k folks only ordered one coupon, so presumably they'll be back as the deadline nears.)

-TC

[johnied]

Originally Posted by tdcrone

As so often happens, it looks like I was indeed wrong and the coupons are 100k/day, 700k/week, so ~2 months remaining if you figure some percentage of people are waiting to the end. (Plus it looks like ~850k folks only ordered one coupon, so presumably they'll be back as the deadline nears.)

-TC

Don't forget there is money or money can be requested for a round two for folks who self certify that they are Over the Air only. :P

[tc1]

Originally Posted by johnied

Don't forget there is money or money can be requested for a round two for folks who self certify that they are Over the Air only. :P

Even if you already got 2 coupons?

[Scooper]

No - 2 coupons per household period.