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When getting a ISF C3 calibration done...

3K views 18 replies 9 participants last post by  Michael TLV 
#1 ·
should the calibrator give you a printout of what was done, before and after?
 
#2 ·
Greetings


Only if you ask for it ... some do and some don't. Before versus after for grayscale ... that is about it.


It's not their job really to write down all your before settings versus after stuff.


Also depends on what you paid ... discounted pricing from some often means no paperwork.


Fortunately most care more about the resulting image than what a graph says ... (graphs don't tell the whole story ... and pretty looking graphs don't always mean the TV image looks right/good)


Regards
 
#4 ·
Todd, your calibrator should have all the numbers/measurements handy. Should just be a matter of telling him you want it and he should be able to provide it. If you do get a hold of the charts, I would love to see them. I do want to see what the local competition has to offer



Was it someone local?

Anyway, regarding the reports I normally provide them to my customers. People like to see in general what they have paid for and it does give the customer an idea of what has changed, etc. Providing something tangible usually tends to please them.
 
#5 ·
Greetings


How do you know? ...


Well you know because you should have sat through the entire process step by step as the calibrator went through it both calibrating the image and educating the client along the way.


What ... no education component?!!


Depends on the circumstances of the job in question. Biggest mistake a client can make WRT calibration is to walk away and ask no questions along the way. Just providing a person with the correct answer without any understanding of why it is correct or how we get there is ultimately a waste of time.


A correct answer can be meaningless if you do not understand why it is correct to begin with. Without this understanding, it is no better than any other wrong answer out there.



That said ... sometimes a client lowballs the price of a calibration to a point where he agrees that there will be no paperwork. Then when he gets exactly what he agreed to ... the rules change. Hey ... where's my paperwork?



Regards
 
#6 ·
Michael is right. If you have sat with him through the process and was educated along the way, then the paperwork is not a big deal. Then it becomes bragging rights to your friends
It still amazes me when I calibrate a client's display and they simply show me the way to the set and leave me be. Not that I am complaining about that because you can get the job done quicker, but it's not what I usually expect and I do feel that they miss out on the educational portion.
 
#7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rede-Rasta /forum/post/14051332


But with no graphs, how do you know that the image is accurate. We all agree that what 'Looks Good' may not be accurate. Without eye-balling the charts how can you tell?

Graphs do not tell you the results are accurate. This is more a function of the instrument and technique. You can have great numbers and a poor calibration. Many important items are also not measured by the light meter.
 
#8 ·
Greetings


The graphs also don't show you if your brightness was set right or your contrast as well. You could be crushing the blacks and clipping the whites and the graph still looks pretty. The graph only tells you what the grayscale looks like ... and not much else ... (in general)


And as Jeff mentions, not all calibration devices work equally well on all technologies. On some, you end up with wonderful graphs, but the image looks super red. Why? Because the display gives off UV light that fools the probe into giving wrong answers.


Regards
 
#9 ·
Okay. Bear with me because i'm a newbie. But let's say i'm looking at the graphs and lets say.


Color temp is D65 across the board

Delta Error is
Gamma is 2.2 - 2.5.

Primaries and secondaries are aligned.

Color balance tracks very well across the board.


How can that be a poor calibration??

Also what kind of equipment should my calibrator have to avoid some of the measurement issues (like the UV stuff) mentioned above.
 
#10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rede-Rasta /forum/post/14051750


Okay. Bear with me because i'm a newbie. But let's say i'm looking at the graphs and lets say.


Color temp is D65 across the board

Delta Error is
Gamma is 2.2 - 2.5.

Primaries and secondaries are aligned.

Color balance tracks very well across the board.


How can that be a bad calibration??

Because the tool is telling you the wrong answer or the image is enhanced in some way that is wrong or the nyquist filter is set incorrectly or the sharpness is set poorly or the source used for the calibration is not matching the source used for by the client or the CMS system is flawed.... The number of things that can go wrong and numbers look good is very large. For example, the color measurements only tell you what things are doing at the edge of color space. Many things can go wrong between white and those colors. You must check intermediate color performance to know things are really correct.


I have used many tools that give good numbers and poor results. The only tools I would trust are spectral based. The PR-670 I use for example cost me $24,000 and delivers phenomenal results. Less capable tools will provide less accurate results and make it more difficult to obtain fabulous results.
 
#11 ·
Got you


So the trick is to find somebody with the right tools. Now assuming they have the right tool for the job, then we agree that those charts do mean quite a bit.


Also, I'm assuming that not all calibrators can afford a > $20K meter. What is a good spectral based meter that most calibrators pack these days that will give relatively good results.
 
#12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rede-Rasta /forum/post/14051821


Got you


So the trick is to find somebody with the right tools. Now assuming they have the right tool for the job, then we agree that those charts do mean quite a bit.

They will mean something, but they are only a small part of the story. Some displays that look worse by the numbers will actually be better in reality. What I call calibration by numbers is not going to get you the best results. You must look at much more than what is shown in these reports to get the best results possible for a given system.


Just like ISF C3 is meaningless on Pioneer Elite displays.
 
#13 ·
Greetings


ISF day and night icons are cool to show off to friends.
They don't necessarily give you the best controls to get the best pictures because the settings are locked down once done. You get no freedom to change anything even if the source material is off by a bit.


In a simpler world before HD disc media, there was more benefit. Now some stuff needs to be set to 24p and others not ... but the TV isn't smart enough to do that automatically for you. So if you are in the ISF modes ... you are stuck.


Best of both world approach is to do the ISF modes and to do the same on the user side.



Regards
 
#14 ·
to ISF C3 calibration. Jeff (UMR) calibrated my Pio Elite

150 FD and a friend's 60" Pio Elite from the line prior to the Kuro line (Elite 1150?) in April. My friend's Pio had been calibrated in the day/night ISF mode last fall. He prefers the recent calibration without the ISF mode. He says it's brighter and more accurate.

I don't have anything to compare it to with my Elite 150FD but I can't imagime it being any better......

Is their anyone out there that can attest to better results if the ISF C3 is calibrated?
 
#15 ·
Greetings


The problem with doing C3 here is that it isn't very good for cable and satellite. It gets set up to a reference signal all right ... (signal generator) but since when is cable reference anything? If using the C3 method, you are stuck ... show too dark ... tough luck. you can't change a thing. If the tint is wrong ... tough luck again ... no manual corrections are available to you.


On the HD disc end of things ... pioneer has specific modes for 24P and 30P that have to be manually selected. Use the C3 and you have to chose one ... or the other, but not both ... a few more compromises are involved here and there.


Regards
 
#16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyf /forum/post/14072615


Jeff (UMR) calibrated my Pio Elite

150 FD and a friend's 60" Pio Elite from the line prior to the Kuro line (Elite 1150?) in April.

Thanks for the calibration report. I've added your report to the flat panel list that is linked at the bottom of my post.


Did UMR also calibrate your audio? If so, use the edit button to add something about that to your report.


Enjoy.
 
#17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV /forum/post/14072919


...On the HD disc end of things ... pioneer has specific modes for 24P and 30P that have to be manually selected. Use the C3 and you have to chose one ... or the other, but not both ... a few more compromises are involved here and there.


Regards
Agreed with regards to cable and satellite.


When you write specific modes for 24p and 30p do you mean the Drive Mode setting?


If so, it seems to me that 24p is automatically used no matter the Drive Mode setting if the TV detects a 24p signal, but I'm not 100% sure. I wish that the TV would announce the current refresh rate in the info dialog window.Ignore my question, just got informed that only the EU versions has this Drive Mode setting...
 
#19 ·
Greetings


You could try it ... but could not be certain unless you had another device to verify what you were doing.


regards
 
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