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Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread

2M views 17K replies 1K participants last post by  fuzzysig 
#1 ·
Started 10.1.08

Last updated: 04.03.10

A Few Items New or Prospective Owners may want to Know


REVIEWSDownloads:

General information:
Universal Remotes & RS232 codes:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Code:
Code:
- [URL='http://www.pioneerusa.com/PUSA/Search?keywords=ir+and+hex+codes+sc-0'][B]IR and Hex codes[/B][/URL] 
-Pronto (ccf format) files and "Universal" (mxf) files  [URL='http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16013382#post16013382']here[/URL] 
-RS232C Protocols for Custom installations [URL='http://pioneerusa.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/SC-07%20RS-232C%20Protocol.pdf']SC-07[/URL]  and  [URL='http://pioneerusa.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/SC-05%20RS-232C%20Protocol.pdf']SC-05[/URL] 
-Crestron , Crestron's Integrated Partner Module  [URL='http://www.crestron.com/tools_and_resources/programming_and_integration_resources/integrated_partner_modules/default.asp?module_id=658&devicetype_id=&manufacturer_id=134']Click Here[/URL] 
-Harmony codes: available as of 10/30/08 (ccotenj)
- [URL='http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16131010#post16131010']Harmony Remote Tips[/URL]
- Service Codes

========================================================

Tips/Examples from Members:

========================================================
 
Networking and Streaming:
-Apple and OS/X networking and Music Streaming ccotenj
-Internet radio Impression1 Impression2
-Network and media server connections ( a_ok2me )
Tips:
-To access HMG MENUS with the remote, be sure to switch from "receiver" to "source"
- Cooling/Ventilation
-SC-LX81 (SC-07) autopsy and here
-Removing stickers without Scratching? Method1 Method2 Method3
-Dimmer setting location: bottom portion of the remote, under the sliding door (number 3 button)
- PURE Direct Observations by MacFan
Subwoofers/Speakers
-Quickstart Speaker setup - MacFan
- Bossobass guide to subwoofers
-General Subwoofer settings (Macfan424) and here
-How do I hook up my Definitive Mythos to the SC/05/07/09? MacFan424
- Dual Subs Graphicguy and MacFan424
LFE/MCACC
-Proper Microphone position for calibration Ray
-LFE and crossover settings MacFan and secrets by Colin Miller & Brian Florian Thanks MacFan
-Why are my MCACC settings 6db lower from my last Pioneer? ss9001
-X-Curve and room sample by eldithomaso
- Connecting your PC to MCACC
- MCACC calibration MacFan
- MCACC and background noise by ss9001
General Connections:
-How to set Video HDMI with Digital (Optical/Coax) Audio Click here
-PS3 connection to Your new SC-05/07 AUDIO/VIDEO
- working setup example of Zone 2 and Zone 3 by mhdiab
-Zone 2 and 3 configuration example by Geoff and alerion
-Adding the ability to watch TV from one source and Audio from another? method1 (SC-05/07) method2 (SC-07)
-HMG and an external HD JS1000
Utilities
-DIY 12VDC Trigger for switching by mrgribbles and circuit diagrams by decoupe
-Member recommended CD to FLAC converters EAC winamp dBpower
-Rippng DTS with Windows - Info_Dan
- How much Power do you actually use? SPL Calculator Thanks MacFan
- Resetting your AVR/Service Mode Codes
- HMG Update
Potential problems:
-Problems with DD+ with the Toshiba XA2 and Samsung HD-DVD. Workarounds from FilmMixer and ss9001
-Rel Subwoofers and SC-05/07/09 Precautions
- Flashing MCACC LED and LED Issues
-Fios Cable Box shows "green screen of death" -- Try HDMI Input 3
added January-March 2010

MCACC background noise ss9001

SPL Calculator

SC-07 with Oppo 83 review Shane55 member's review (page 3)

working setup example of Zone 2 and Zone 3

FW HMG updates from users

Raymond G review
My first impression - original first post
 
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#2,061 ·
Too bad there isn't a discrete code for turning PQLS on and off so we could do a better comparison. Have somebody switch it and see if you can tell which is which with your eyes closed.
 
#2,062 ·
Well, it's not as elegant as having a button on the remote, but if you hit another listening mode other than stereo, it will turn the PQLS off, then just put it back in stereo mode......
 
#2,063 ·
Hmmm, where to start?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer /forum/post/15003307


While I think your post contains some good information, I think there are some basic inaccuracies.

FilmMixer, I think it was your posts more than anything that convinced me that I should get an SC-05, and my understanding of PQLS that I should pair it with a BDP-51. I was trying to explain why, but the post was long enough for most folks, and I missed out quite a bit of information. Let me explain...
Quote:
How can you say it's not proprietary? It's a two way HDMI communication that only works with four products in the Pioneer line up. PQLS is a proprietary Pioneer trade name for it's tech, and doesn't describe any kind of industry standard.

You can't use the PQLS feature with non-Pioneer equipment... which makes it proprietary. It's not a standard like 1394.

The idea isn't unique (like Denon's D-Link, which was one of the first to market) but other manufacturers aren't just name branding it.. these are unique variants to get the same job done (eliminating jitter) using proprietary tech to accomplish it.

I repeat, PQLS is not proprietary, its not restricted to Pioneer, and it's not even limited to HDMI. Its just Pioneers name for an industry-standard digital audio interface protocol that has actually been in use for several years.


For those with short memories, PQLS was Pioneers name for the Audio & Music protocol on firewire that was called i-link. To their credit, Pioneer was first out the blocks with i-link, but all the other majors followed soon after. They could only do this because it was an industry standard. It was called IEC 61883-6 IIRC.


Sony produced players and amps with i-link, but they called it HATS. They didn't guarantee interoperability with other makers i-links, but everyone quickly found that they all worked together. I have a Pio DV79 with PQLS and a Sony AVR with HATS, and they work perfectly.


Denon did support i-link, but went their own way with Denon Link. There's less information about that, and I understand it works in the same way as i-link, but using ethernet instead of firewire as the physical bearer channel. There were some audio advantages with this, but denon link WAS a proprietary interface, and nobody else used it.


PQLS is now being used on HDMI, and its defined in the HDMI V1.3a spec. See p111 section 7.11:
Quote:
Audio Rate Control Overview

The Audio Rate Control feature allows a Sink to slightly and continuously adjust the audio clock rate of the Source in order to match the Sink’s crystal-based audio clock. The Sink controls the Source’s audio clock rate with the CEC command. See CEC Supplement section CEC 13.16 for details.

Source ACR behavior is not affected by Audio Rate Control. When Audio Rate Control is enabled the Source shall continue to generate correct ACR packets that accurately reflect the current (possibly adjusted) audio clock rate.

This is the same way that PQLS and HATS etc worked on i-link, only now its applied to HDMI and its called Audio Rate Control. Pioneer actually mentions ARC in some of its promotional literature. I was the person that first flagged up the opportunities for ARC back in July last year, and predicted that manaufacturers could use it to minimise jitter in the same way that i-link did.


Well, now Pioneer and Sony are doing this, and others like Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo and Integra etc are bound to follow. ARC has a better chance of becoming well established as HDMI is the way forwards (for better or for worse) in a way that i-link would never be. Coincidentally, Sony are calling their ARC implemention HATS, just as they did with i-link. As before, no-one will say they are compatible as they weren't developed side by side, but any day now someone will connect a Sony player with HATS to a Pioneer amp with PQLS, and my money says it will work because they are working to the same standard. maybe its not been done yet, but remember where you heard it first!
Quote:
With the Denon and Pioneer implimentation, you sure are.


There are very few pieces of gear that allow for external clock inputs, which surprises me. That is the true audiophile solution.

Thats a very effective solution, but it seems to be confined to high end stuff like dCs. Although a synchronous digital audio architecture is probably the ideal, its not an external clock in itself that is desirable, simply that the clock should be close to the DAC, and that it should avoid a compromised interface like spdif or hdmi. External clocks aren't mainstream though, and i-link, denon-link and PQLS are pragmatic solutions that everyone can use.
Quote:
I've never heard that the data is what is the cause of jitter... it is the lack of a common clock, not the audio.


And SPDIF has no clock. Biphase mark code is not a clock.


Jitter is a temporal error, not data degradation.


Most high end processors (Denon AVP and Anthem D2, for example) reclock digital inputs anyways.

Jitter is caused by everything as far as I can tell, and audio data is just one thing. There's an important thing to explain. Digital audio has two information streams - ampitude info (data) and timing info (clock). Both these streams are necessary to reproduce the audio. The amplitude info comes from the disc (or whatever) and the timing info comes from the master audio clock. Jitter is indeed a temporal error, but it only affects the tiing info. Jitter is not carried by the data at all. Its the quality of the chain from the clock to the DAC that affects jitter, the data is generally robust and doesn't enter into it. Stereo and MC equipment can re-clock digital audio, so there is a slave audio clock as well as the master, but these don't work as well in practice as they do in theory (or in marketing stuff). The real solution is to keep the clock next to the DAC and keep everything else out of the way.
Quote:
The clock signal doesn't travel between the transport and and AVR/SSP in most cases... it is PCM, and that is what is susceptable to jitter, not a "clock signal."

In general it does. Spdif, toslink, I2S and HDMI can all carry a clock, though they do it in different ways. Sure, compressed audio can't carry a clock, but where there's LPCM theres a clock, even if it doesn't have it's own channel. In spdif the clock is embedded into the data, and travels from the player to the AVR. With DD or DTS, the clock is only generated by the decoder in the AVR, and doesn't travel over the link. HDMI is different, as the audio timing info is carried over the video clock and CEC channels, but thats another matter.
Quote:
It really isn't important where the clock is.. what is important is that all digital pieces of gear in a chain share the same clock...

The whole point of i-link or PQLS is that the clock is indeed where the DAC is - otherwise there would be no point or benefit. Yes, you have to share the clock , but the quality of the clock must be preserved or proritised for the DAC, and can be relaxed for the transport. It really doesn't matter if the clock suffers degradation going from the AVR to the player - the data will still come out just fine.
Quote:
It's not as important that it works for BR and DVD if you are bitstreaming (although PCM is susceptible to it)..


Jitter has nothing to do with AV syncronization... a frame of video contains 48,000 24 bit audio words per channel... jitter occurs at the thousands of a second level.


Bitstream codecs are immune to jitter...

This is a huge subject, and probably beyond this thread. It depends on the architecture of the AVR, and how it regenerates the audio clock. When HDMI is used to carry DTHD & DTS MA to the AVR, the audio clock may be generated from the video clock, so it will still be prone to jitter, but the HDMI spec doesn't lay down the law here, and receivers may do things differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult /forum/post/15003584


Yeah, what FilmMixer said about PQLS.
All these HDMI receivers buffer and reclock the PCM. As long as the buffer is big enough, PQLS isn't needed. In dr1394's testing, he played a whole CD with the older firewire Pioneer combo and never saw a single 'speed up' or 'slow down' command meaning the buffer never overflowed or underflowed and PQLS wasn't required with that combo. Until I see some actual jitter measurements, I'll remain skeptical that the 'improved sound' with PQLS is anything more than the placebo effect.

All this is irrelevant. 1394 i-link doesn't carry jitter from a player to the AVR, because it doesn't carry the timing info in that direction. Its a simple as that. The data can have pretty much all the jitter it likes, but the clock won't suffer from ANY of it.
Quote:
Pioneer didn't think it was big enough a deal to include it on the flagship 09.

Yes they did - that has i-link inputs!


BR, Nick
 
#2,064 ·

Quote:
All this is irrelevant.

Au contraire.
If the receiver's buffer is big enough that it doesn't overflow or underflow, and it's using its own clock, it doesn't need to tell the player to speed up or slow down and could care less what the player is doing.


I suspect this is one place where the 07 may be better than the 05. They appear to have moved the HDMI audio buffer from the HDMI board to the digital audio board where they are converting everything to 192K and using the receiver's master clock. Just reading between the lines -- the 07 HDMI board is cheaper than the 05 HDMI board even though it has an extra output; the 07 digital audio board costs more and includes the BB chip.


Edit: the advantage of the 07 way is it should buffer the data from any source, coax, optical, whatever. It's just like the big buck DACs used to work back in the day -- big buffer and reclock the signal -- but the Pioneer is doing it before the CPU so you can still process the signal.
 
#2,065 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult /forum/post/15006147


Au contraire.


.......................................................

I suspect this is one place where the 07 may be better than the 05. They appear to have moved the HDMI audio buffer from the HDMI board to the digital audio board where they are converting everything to 192K and using the receiver's master clock. Just reading between the lines -- the 07 HDMI board is cheaper than the 05 HDMI board even though it has an extra output; the 07 digital audio board costs more and includes the BB chip.

......................................................

Good catch, Catapult.

That's been an ongoing discussion/question (Burr Brown DAC in SC-07), and your explaination seems well thought out..

Thanks, I've wondered (theorized) why the HIBITSMP (Hi Bit/Hi Sampling) was only available on the SC-05:



Page 96
 
#2,066 ·
I think they both upsample to 24/192, the SC-07 uses the BB SRC chip and the SC-05 uses an unamed chip or can that be done on the main ADC/DAC. At least thats the assumption I've come to in trying to figure this out.


CHP is right, this has been my one nagging issue between the two, the wording from Pioneer is cryptic at best. I've been over the OM again and again, and it doesn't offer much in this area.
 
#2,067 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHP_VR /forum/post/15006813


Good catch, Catapult.

That's been an ongoing discussion/question (Burr Brown DAC in SC-07), and your explaination seems well thought out..

Thanks, I've wondered (theorized) why the HIBITSMP (Hi Bit/Hi Sampling) was only available on the SC-05:



Page 96

I have tried out this HIBITSMP mode and have not noticed a difference at all. Has anyone else with an SC-05 tried it out yet? If not, please do and post back with your findings.


Thanks
 
#2,068 ·
I'm setting up a new SC-07 and have it connected to my DVI Panny plasma via a HDMI-DVI cable. I also have an HDMI source, a DirecTV HR20 high def DVR outputting 1080i, and it displays perfectly on the plasma. However, I am unable to get the SC-07 OSD setup screens to display.


I may be off in the weeds here, but I'm wondering if the SC-07 is outputting these screens at 480i over HDMI, which my plasma will not accept via DVI. If so, is there a way to configure the resolution at which the OSD screens are output?


Any ideas?


Mike
 
#2,069 ·
jmr21,

Just checked, my display shows video input is 480p when switched to the setup screens of the SC-07
 
#2,070 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHP_VR /forum/post/15007956


jmr21,

Just checked, my display shows video input is 480p when switched to the setup screens of the SC-07

Strange. I connected the component monitor out of the SC-07 to the component in on my display, and I was able to get the OSD screens. Went back to the HDMI-DVI and no joy. It appears to be some sort of resolution or timing problem because the NO INPUT signal indicator on the display blinks on and off, the screen flickers occasionally, and occasionally I can see flashes of the OSD screen. Bummer.


Any other ideas?


Mike
 
#2,071 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr21 /forum/post/15008091


Strange. I connected the component monitor out of the SC-07 to the component in on my display, and I was able to get the OSD screens. Went back to the HDMI-DVI and no joy. It appears to be some sort of resolution or timing problem because the NO INPUT signal indicator on the display blinks on and off, the screen flickers occasionally, and occasionally I can see flashes of the OSD screen. Bummer.


Any other ideas?


Mike

Just to make sure, do you have the output on from your SC-07 connected to HDMI 1?
 
#2,072 ·
I hooked up the B&W's tonight with the bi-amp option on the SC-07 and it does seem to give a slight amount of improved imaging but it could just be my ears wanting to hear a difference, it would be nice to have an A/B switch to know for sure.
 
#2,074 ·
You may want to call Pioneer support, jmr21.. this is the first time I've heard of a problem like this.


Are you getting any video dropouts at all when watching normal programs (thinking may be a problem with the cable)?

Odd component works but not DVI for the setup screens..


The only time I've seen something similar regarding your discription of the screen, was with my old Sony RPTV (pre DVI/HDMI)... If I input a component, then anything with S-video would flash and not display.... it had to do with the input priority, (essentially, everything had to be the same type input-still doesn't make sense
)... Is anything else connected directly to your display?
 
#2,076 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by focker /forum/post/15008219


I hooked up the B&W's tonight with the bi-amp option on the SC-07 and it does seem to give a slight amount of improved imaging but it could just be my ears wanting to hear a difference, it would be nice to have an A/B switch to know for sure.

Please correct me if I'm off base, I'm still learning, but I thought Bi-amping's main purpose was to prevent clipping and weak bass by giving more headroom and clearer midrange (keeping the woofer current separate from the mid/high)? You already got good equipment and ICE AMPS, should there be a large improvement, or marginal? (Of course, marginal is subjective, and any improvement is good).
 
#2,077 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHP_VR /forum/post/15009643


Please correct me if I'm off base, I'm still learning, but I thought Bi-amping's main purpose was to prevent clipping and weak bass by giving more headroom and clearer midrange (keeping the woofer current separate from the mid/high)? You already got good equipment and ICE AMPS, should there be a large improvement, or marginal? (Of course, marginal is subjective, and any improvement is good).

You are correct on the main purpose of bi-amping. I haven't had a clipping issue but after hearing these speakers with a lot more power (a Classe amp CA-2200 and a McIntosh MC402 amp) they had so much punch and tight sound I figured this would try this option with them to see if there was any improvement. I would say that bi-amping them with the SC-07 should be classified under marginal (yes subjective
) improvement.
 
#2,078 ·
Hey all,


I'm seriously considering the SC-05 but have a few questions. FYI - I would be upgrading from a Pio 56txi AVR. I have a 5.1 setup, Paradigm speakers, PS3 for blu ray and a Pio 5020 display. I'll probably be getting an Oppo to play SACD and DVD-A.


Here are my questions..


1. With my setup, are the new audio codecs worth it?

2. What's the real difference between the SC-05 and the SC-07 and is the extra cost worth it?

3. Basically, I love my current AVR. Would an upgrade be worth the cost?


I'm trying to learn but everytime I read these threads, I realize how stupid I am!


Thanks.
 
#2,079 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrr0b29 /forum/post/15011302


Hey all,


I'm seriously considering the SC-05 but have a few questions. FYI - I would be upgrading from a Pio 56txi AVR. I have a 5.1 setup, Paradigm speakers, PS3 for blu ray and a Pio 5020 display. I'll probably be getting an Oppo to play SACD and DVD-A.


Here are my questions..


1. With my setup, are the new audio codecs worth it?

2. What's the real difference between the SC-05 and the SC-07 and is the extra cost worth it?

3. Basically, I love my current AVR. Would an upgrade be worth the cost?


I'm trying to learn but everytime I read these threads, I realize how stupid I am!


Thanks.

hrr029,


1. Yes, personal opinion, but I like the new DTS and DD codecs, and the ICE Amps make just about any speaker setup sound special.

2. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post14809946 if the extra features are something you need, yes, but in general, no, both are excellent choices

3. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14864114


You may want to look at page one for more links, but overall, I think most people are very happy with the SC-05/07, I certaintly am
 
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