I've decided to wait for Nvidia 9300/9400 for HTPC

[AbMagFab]

Originally Posted by Ampd

AbMagFab, thanks for trying to simply but keep enough technical detail to make it real. We have solutions for the video side of things, but what are the key roadblocks / lack of support on the PAP side of things? Are we missing anything on the hardware side of things? Or is it just really the lack of software support to acutally support the bitstreaming once the PAP path has been established? I guess I'm still struggling to understand the lack of this type of support and frustrated at the lack of options (which seems SO basic to what we are all trying to do)

There are a bunch of issues around PAP:

The first is hardware - the hardware must support PAP. Currently, only the Xonar HDAV (junk) and the G45 (abandoned PAP) have any hardware support at all. So other than those (today), you will never see full resolution HD audio.

The second is Vista. Vista redid the sound subsystem, making some things better, but it actually made things like PAP harder. They basically API'd the whole thing, but apparently forgot to standardize a PAP API. So each PAP implementation is going to be specific to the hardware, which means hardware vendors have to get a software partner to even make it worth while to implement PAP (which is why Intel abandoned their G45 PAP portion, apparently).

The third is the software players. They need to implement PAP integration into each hardware vendor's product. However there are virtually no PAP hardware products around, so it's not high on their priority list.

So this could be resolved a couple of ways:
1) Vista could implement a standard PAP API (perhaps someday)
2) Software vendors could modify their license agreements with the HD audio codec vendors to allow for full resolution HD audio when no AACS is present (not likely)
3) More PAP products come out and the software players have to support the hardware (sort of like with HA video today) because the demand is high enough (not for a while)

Bottom line, nothing will likely change in the next 1-2 years. Perhaps the Xonar and the Prelude will end up working, or more likely the v2.0 of those cards will work sometime next year. Beyond that, until demand picks up, not much else will change.

In the mean time, you can get 16/48 LPCM HD audio over HDMI for as cheap as $50. It's beautiful, and it's mostly indistinguishable from bitstreaming. Further, most BluRay is mastered in 16/48 anyway, so there's no difference.

[Carlton Bale]

Great summary.

If I understand everything correctly, might an additional solution may be a third party directshow codec that that removes the down-sampling limitation? Something similar to AC3 Filter? This of course assumes there is a player that will use directshow for codec priority instead of their own internal codecs. . .

[AbMagFab]

Originally Posted by Carlton Bale

Great summary.

If I understand everything correctly, might an additional solution may be a third party directshow codec that that removes the down-sampling limitation? Something similar to AC3 Filter? This of course assumes there is a player that will use directshow for codec priority instead of their own internal codecs. . .

Sort of... Unfortuately, the BD software players (TMT/PDVD) will only use their own codecs.

You have a couple options here:

1) Give up ISO/disc playback, and remux the MKV file (just the movie file) with FLAC audio, and then use TMT to play it back - you'll get full resolution HD 7.1 LPCM.

2) Hope one of the open-source codecs eventually handles TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., natively. Then, rip the MKV out (but no remux necessary), and then play with MPC or something similar (but not TMT or PDVD).

[S.O.P]

Originally Posted by stranx44

One last request for present owners. Can you play this with MPC and let us know if full HA is available and working? Should have my 6TB of data backed up to migrate to 9300, so will be buying soon! TIA!

I think you forgot what 'this' is ie. no link to 'this'.

[darshbagel]

Hey everyone! I love this thread and the fact that people contribute such valuable information. Thanks!

I just had one question: should I buy the 9300 motherboard?

I want a home computer for Adobe CS3, basic music production, DVD playing/ripping, possible BluRay playing/ripping, and light gaming.

I currently have an AMD 64 3000+ on an nForce4 motherboard. And I bought an E7200 a month ago for CHEAP and I'm trying to figure out if I should sell it or put it in a new system.

This 9300 looks promising, however, I have seen some drawbacks.

So, should I buy the Asus that's out now? Wait a week or two for a new board? Or ditch the 9300 altogether?

Thanks a ton.

(And does it support dual digital output? With/without display port? I'm still confused on that. )

[marmite]

Damn, can't paste URL..
But it you search on "EVGA europe shop" and look for the 730i motherboard....


Does this suggest the EVGA nvidia 730i / GeForce 9300 is actually available ??
But at a price!

[stottle]

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

There are a bunch of issues around PAP:

The first is hardware - the hardware must support PAP. Currently, only the Xonar HDAV (junk) and the G45 (abandoned PAP) have any hardware support at all. So other than those (today), you will never see full resolution HD audio.

The second is Vista. Vista redid the sound subsystem, making some things better, but it actually made things like PAP harder. They basically API'd the whole thing, but apparently forgot to standardize a PAP API. So each PAP implementation is going to be specific to the hardware, which means hardware vendors have to get a software partner to even make it worth while to implement PAP (which is why Intel abandoned their G45 PAP portion, apparently).

The third is the software players. They need to implement PAP integration into each hardware vendor's product. However there are virtually no PAP hardware products around, so it's not high on their priority list.

So this could be resolved a couple of ways:
1) Vista could implement a standard PAP API (perhaps someday)
2) Software vendors could modify their license agreements with the HD audio codec vendors to allow for full resolution HD audio when no AACS is present (not likely)
3) More PAP products come out and the software players have to support the hardware (sort of like with HA video today) because the demand is high enough (not for a while)

Bottom line, nothing will likely change in the next 1-2 years. Perhaps the Xonar and the Prelude will end up working, or more likely the v2.0 of those cards will work sometime next year. Beyond that, until demand picks up, not much else will change.

In the mean time, you can get 16/48 LPCM HD audio over HDMI for as cheap as $50. It's beautiful, and it's mostly indistinguishable from bitstreaming. Further, most BluRay is mastered in 16/48 anyway, so there's no difference.

I understand the need for PAP for encrypted audio. What if the audio isn't encrypted? Why do you need PAP to send unencrypted audio (TrueHD for instance, if it isn't encrypted) via HDMI to a receiver and let the receiver do the decoding? Nothing needs to be done by the computer except pass the data, yet there isn't a way to do this. I don't understand what makes this so difficult. Would someone enlighten me?

Thanks,
Brett

[AbMagFab]

Originally Posted by stottle

I understand the need for PAP for encrypted audio. What if the audio isn't encrypted? Why do you need PAP to send unencrypted audio (TrueHD for instance, if it isn't encrypted) via HDMI to a receiver and let the receiver do the decoding? Nothing needs to be done by the computer except pass the data, yet there isn't a way to do this. I don't understand what makes this so difficult. Would someone enlighten me?

Thanks,
Brett

It's not a technical issue, it's a licensing issue. The software players (TMT/PDVD) apparently have agreements with Dolby and DTS to convert to LPCM and bitstrip to 16/48 if there's no PAP.

The argument, which makes sense, is that there's no such thing as unencrypted TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., without AnyDVD HD. There's no way for a consumer to create a TrueHD track. (This is different than a core BD disc, since there are lots of ways for consumers to create unencrypted BD discs without AnyDVD, which is why HDCP/PVP isn't required with AnyDVD HD).

Anyway, hope this helps.

[stottle]

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

It's not a technical issue, it's a licensing issue. The software players (TMT/PDVD) apparently have agreements with Dolby and DTS to convert to LPCM and bitstrip to 16/48 if there's no PAP.

The argument, which makes sense, is that there's no such thing as unencrypted TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., without AnyDVD HD. There's no way for a consumer to create a TrueHD track. (This is different than a core BD disc, since there are lots of ways for consumers to create unencrypted BD discs without AnyDVD, which is why HDCP/PVP isn't required with AnyDVD HD).

Anyway, hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply. Thanks makes sense, but I have a follow-up question. What prevents a different program (MPC-HC for instance) - one that can read an unencrypted m2ts file - from passing the raw truehd stream directly to an av receiver? I'm guessing the answer is that the hardware with the hdmi output has drivers that won't allow this without PAP? If so, since DisplayPort is an open standard, would it theoretically be possible to send the raw stream on a DisplayPort cable?

Thanks again,
Brett

[stranx44]

Originally Posted by S.O.P

I think you forgot what 'this' is ie. no link to 'this'.

This, is 9300/9400 chipset mobo. No worries, should get my board by tomorrow or Friday at the latest.

[S.O.P]

Aha, very cryptic. Good luck with the board.

Still haven't seen one in Australia yet...

[madshi]

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

The argument, which makes sense, is that there's no such thing as unencrypted TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., without AnyDVD HD.

Some HD DVDs are not AACS protected. So it's possible to have unencrypted TrueHD and DTS-MA tracks.

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

There's no way for a consumer to create a TrueHD track.

Not yet, anyway. The ffmpeg guys are working on an MLP encoder.

[arryo]

I have a noob question. How could i connect this mobo to the system. I am not sure if i understand correctly, i will connect from Mobo to LCD via DVI or HDMI for video, as for audio, i just need to connect HDMI port from Mobo to HDMI in receiver. Is it correct?

Thanks

[AbMagFab]

Originally Posted by stottle

Thanks for the reply. Thanks makes sense, but I have a follow-up question. What prevents a different program (MPC-HC for instance) - one that can read an unencrypted m2ts file - from passing the raw truehd stream directly to an av receiver? I'm guessing the answer is that the hardware with the hdmi output has drivers that won't allow this without PAP? If so, since DisplayPort is an open standard, would it theoretically be possible to send the raw stream on a DisplayPort cable?

Thanks again,
Brett

Just the algorithm for decoding the tracks, which are relatively complex. Nothing else technical or hardware related. The compression algorithms for the codecs aren't open source, so anyone using them is technically violating copyright. But I believe the open source codecs are close to this anyway.

[sotti]

Originally Posted by stottle

Thanks for the reply. Thanks makes sense, but I have a follow-up question. What prevents a different program (MPC-HC for instance) - one that can read an unencrypted m2ts file - from passing the raw truehd stream directly to an av receiver? I'm guessing the answer is that the hardware with the hdmi output has drivers that won't allow this without PAP? If so, since DisplayPort is an open standard, would it theoretically be possible to send the raw stream on a DisplayPort cable?

Thanks again,
Brett

I don't know what it takes to bitstream audio, but there is a hardware component, otherwise the PS3 would do it (it's HDMI 1.3, but cannot bitstream HD codecs).

I don't think anyone outside of the people working on bitstreaming drivers know exactly what it takes.

What I do know is that it's not as easy as saying mux-in true-HD stream.

[sotti]

Originally Posted by arryo

I have a noob question. How could i connect this mobo to the system. I am not sure if i understand correctly, i will connect from Mobo to LCD via DVI or HDMI for video, as for audio, i just need to connect HDMI port from Mobo to HDMI in receiver. Is it correct?

Thanks

Mobo HDMI -> receiver HDMI in -> receiver HDMI out-> HDMI to DVI cable->LCD Panel.

A good reciever should pass the EDID info from the LCD to the PC.

SHOULD being the operative word.

[stottle]

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

Just the algorithm for decoding the tracks, which are relatively complex. Nothing else technical or hardware related. The compression algorithms for the codecs aren't open source, so anyone using them is technically violating copyright. But I believe the open source codecs are close to this anyway.

???

I understand the decoding algorithm is complex and not open source, but I'm talking about feeding the not-yet-decoded (but unencrypted) stream directly to the AV-receiver, which already knows how to decode the lossless audio formats (mine does, which is why I'm also following the HDAV1.3 thread with disappointment). All the HTPC needs to do is pass the raw stream to the AV-receiver. Does the PAP requirement go away if the audio isn't encrypted?

Brett

[AbMagFab]

Originally Posted by stottle

???

I understand the decoding algorithm is complex and not open source, but I'm talking about feeding the not-yet-decoded (but unencrypted) stream directly to the AV-receiver, which already knows how to decode the lossless audio formats (mine does, which is why I'm also following the HDAV1.3 thread with disappointment). All the HTPC needs to do is pass the raw stream to the AV-receiver. Does the PAP requirement go away if the audio isn't encrypted?

Brett

Ah, right, sorry. I can only assume it's fairly complicated to ensure the compressed codec is always perfectly synched with the video, especially when there's decoding going on in an external device.

I think it's more than simply passing the bitstream along, I think there's a fair amount of iterpretation of the bitstream, that you can only do if you know how to decode it.

But no, there is nothing technical that I'm aware of that prevents the bitstream from passing over any HDMI cable, through any HDMI 1.2+ hardware. Just like there's nothing technical preventing a non-HDCP 1080p signal from passing over HDMI.

[womble]

Originally Posted by AbMagFab

...The advantage the 8200/8300/9300/9400 have is that they do silky smooth 24p - a critical feature for a true HTPC.

Hey AbMagFab, I'd be keen to hear your thoughts on how good the 9300 is for SD post processing.

Thanks
Mike

[stottle]

AbMagFab/sotti - Thanks for the replies.

I'm still not sure what, if any, magic is required in terms of decoding a truehd stream. But what I was forgetting was that the signal on the hdmi cable is not a transport stream. Just like the video card takes the video stream and converts it to distinct pixels sent to the screen, the audio probably needs to be translated for transmission along the hdmi cable (even if it doesn't need to be decoded at all). Probably that is the piece that isn't available to put into programs like MPC or VLC?

Brett

[sotti]

Originally Posted by stottle

AbMagFab/sotti - Thanks for the replies.

I'm still not sure what, if any, magic is required in terms of decoding a truehd stream. But what I was forgetting was that the signal on the hdmi cable is not a transport stream. Just like the video card takes the video stream and converts it to distinct pixels sent to the screen, the audio probably needs to be translated for transmission along the hdmi cable (even if it doesn't need to be decoded at all). Probably that is the piece that isn't available to put into programs like MPC or VLC?

Brett

I think that's exactly it. MPC or VLC don't have access to the HDMI port directly so they can only do what the audio driver offers up to them as options. And regardless of what kind of raw audio bits you pass if you could set output for exclusive mode it still wouldn't be able to modify anything in the HDMI protocol that wraps the data packets. My understanding is that bitstreaming HD codecs requires specific hardware in the encoder that wraps the raw data into HDMI packets. That hardware needs to set specific flags for HD bitsream audio. So without driver support and hardware support there is nothing software vendors can do.

So I've heard, I have no first hand knowledge.

[Noircogi]

Originally Posted by stranx44

Has anyone used the RAID features on this board yet? If so, can you tell me if it is backwards compatible with the older NForce Raid controllers / partitions? I need to understand this for migration of my 6TB.....TIA

If you were using Rel9 or later NVRAID you should be able to mount the array just fine with the current 10.X packages. I recommend you not try to just boot directly from your old RAID unless your REALLY know what you're doing and do an upgrade install on first boot (if so, remember that you need to install both the SATA and RAID drivers during the upgrade install, not just one or the other). It's far safer to use a dedicated boot drive and then mount the array for data.

FYI: I've been using an 9400 reference board as my main office PC under Vista 64 for about 2.5 months now with no problems whatsoever. Performance has been amazing for an integrated GPU.

[_Mick_]

Well I just ordered my 9300 board. Hopefully, I wont have the heat issues some others are having. I plan on installing ubuntu 8.10 on it with hopes that everything (HDMI and Optical Audit) work out of the box.

Can only hope right?

Also bought:
Intel 3.0 C2D
4 gigs ram (2x2)
430 w ps
Antec mini p180
using old hd and dvd

[hbillsmith]

Question - 676020
From : Bill Smith [ xxxxxx@xxxxx]
Sent : 11/6/2008 05:57 Location is: Dallas Texas
Question : Today's date: Wednesday November 5 2008
Model Name : GA-E7AUM-DS2H(rev. 1.0)
I would like to purchase motherboard GA-E7AUM-DS2H as soon as possible. Prefer retail from Fry's or online from New Egg. Please advise when I will see product available. Regards, Bill Smith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer - 676020
Dear Customer,
This model GA-E7AUM-DS2H will begin shipping to distributors at the end of November. Dealers and online dealers should stock them early December.
Thank you for choosing Gigabyte products
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Hogweed75]

Originally Posted by hbillsmith

Question - 676020
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer - 676020
Dear Customer,
This model GA-E7AUM-DS2H will begin shipping to distributors at the end of November. Dealers and online dealers should stock them early December.
Thank you for choosing Gigabyte products
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crap! I have everything purchased and ready for my new HTPC build except for the MB.

I'm actually waiting on the EVGA nForce 730i full ATX board. Anyone heard anything on that one?

I'm also waiting to see if the Auzentech Home Theater 7.1 turns out to be OK. There's another $250. Or maybe the Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 will be working by then! I'm also buying the Emotiva UMC-1 processor/Preamp in December when they start shipping.

Wow! Too many things all coming at the same time. My wife isn't going to like me much in December!!! I'll have to get her something really nice!

[flubber]

Originally Posted by Hogweed75

Crap! I have everything purchased and ready for my new HTPC build except for the MB.

I'm actually waiting on the EVGA nForce 730i full ATX board. Anyone heard anything on that one?

I'm also waiting to see if the Auzentech Home Theater 7.1 turns out to be OK. There's another $250. Or maybe the Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 will be working by then! I'm also buying the Emotiva UMC-1 processor/Preamp in December when they start shipping.

Wow! Too many things all coming at the same time. My wife isn't going to like me much in December!!! I'll have to get her something really nice!

The GA-E7AUM-DS2H is in stock here in Sweden
http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=395026
I will buy one for shure now !!!

[Noircogi]

Originally Posted by _Mick_

Well I just ordered my 9300 board. Hopefully, I wont have the heat issues some others are having. I plan on installing ubuntu 8.10 on it with hopes that everything (HDMI and Optical Audit) work out of the box.

Expecting the "latest and greatest" stuff to just work under Linux is normally setting yourself up for disappointment. The Device IDs are all present in the latest kernels but, in general, you're unlikely to see Linux taking full advantage of hardware features until they become mainstream. I can't say what you'll find in this particular case though.

[brettbee]

Originally Posted by hbillsmith

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer - 676020
Dear Customer,
This model GA-E7AUM-DS2H will begin shipping to distributors at the end of November. Dealers and online dealers should stock them early December.
Thank you for choosing Gigabyte products
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I second the "crap." I'm not even going to do Blu-Ray...but I wanted something more than a Music Box connected to my Receiver/TV. I've had piles of CD's on the dining room floor since the Spring and my wife is not happy. Getting a Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H and an Athlon 4850e is actually getting tempting. Together, they'd probably cost the same or less than the GA-E7AUM-DS2H *OR* the e8400 I was planning on buying.

Argh. I guess I could always stick a firewire card in the Asus board and hope my memory works with it.

[CountryBumkin]

I'd like to move over to the 9300/9400 but I need at least two PCI-e x1 slots. preferably a x1, x4 or 8, and a x16. Anything on the horizon?

[hbillsmith]

Take a look at Asus P5N-VM WS. It has Quadro QX470 GPU and more PCI slots, also adds greater shared mem capability (up to 4GB) and Open GL and SAS as differentiators. The Asus P5N7A-VM has the GeForce 9300 GPU (same family as QX470). Both have CUDA, Physx, 16 pipelines, DirectX 10. The "WS" is a workstation class board and costs about $100 more than the non-WS. Neither by the way have on-board Firewire. One last good thing about the WS is that it has 5 onboard Fan connectors (non-WS has 2) so you can compensate for using super slow quiet fans by adding more of them around the board.