Official Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD Owners Thread / Vs 1.32 DTS-HD MA

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Hughman

Just want to report a strange issue which has occurred three times since I've updated to firmware 1.17. When powering up the player with no disk in the tray it takes about 25 seconds before the Pioneer logo appears at which point I can open the tray to insert a disk which is perfectly normal but a few times after placing a disk in the tray and closing tray the player will again repeat the same 25 second "power on" sequence. During this second power on the screen again goes blank, the players display again shows "Power On", it takes another 25 seconds for the Pioneer logo to display after which time the disk will begin it's typical load sequence.

Not sure if this is isolated at this point but thought I'd through it out there.

Unrelated, last night the player also froze upon me again, after a movie ended we left the theater with the disk still running, the disk returned to the menu screen and a short loop of music repeated itself but the players functions were frozen.

RMA time.

[eldithomaso]

Originally Posted by Lespes

Not sure if anyone has commented on this or encountered it before. Playing Wall-e with director's commentary, movie freezes after a few minutes. Same for Geek commentary, using latest firmware on 05. Other than that, movie plays flawlessly.

I should say that I am using optical audio out as my receiver will not accept HDMI, and perhaps that is the issue.

Lespes:

What audio track are you selecting in the main menus/pop up menus on Wall- E? What receiver are you using, what TV and what connections (componenet?)? What are your audio settings in the player?

What do you have your audio output set to? Remember that bitstreaming does not support the commentary (but you don't have HDMI so that should not be an issue) only PCM and decoding in player does. I wonder if that is causing the player to lock as it tries to play a track it is not assigned to do. Also we need a time code to verify your problem.

Be sure the disk is clean - sounds like it is given the rest of the movie playing correctly.

Page 20 of the manual - set Audio to Optical
Page 40 - set audio out to Dolby Digital 1
You can also try setting AAC-PCM since I don't know how old your receiver is...
Also review page 50 for more details

FINALLY - remember the 05 does NOT DECODE DTS-HD MASTER yet only DTS-Core from the DTS-HD sources (without an HDMI reciver that will not matter to you unless you switch to 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs though. By the way, if you have 5.1 or 7.1 imputs and your reciver can do BM over same they would be a better option with this unit so you get most of the new audio goodness).

I would be happy to try my copy. I assume you have the BD and NOT the DVD version you are referring to...?

[ssteel01]

Originally Posted by D.Rowe

Is the Outlaw ICBM potentially a solution for us 51/05 owners who are using the analog outs and are frustrated with the lack of Bass Mgmt. controls ?

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/icbm_manual.pdf

It does bring more wire into the equation, and therefore more cost, for the 6 additional analog connections but.... it looks to add the type of flexibility that some of us have been wanting here...or am I missing the purpose of this unit?


Dave

It's pretty much the only solution for many analog users. M&K also makes a similar product (the BMC Mini or LFE-3 I believe). But, I think all these products have been discontinued which can make them pretty hard to find.

It would be fantastic if Pioneer actually addressed the lack of bass management in a future FW update, but I'm seriously doubting that will ever happen. Analog output just does not seem to be a major consideration for this player. If you want proper bass management, you've either got to connect via HDMI, utilize an outboard BM processor or get a AVR/pre that applies digital processing to the analog inputs. Otherwise, you're left with trying to find which of the two less than ideal options sounds best to you.


Scott

[TTman]

Originally Posted by eldithomaso

I am sure one of us would be happy to take them off your hands at a good price.

Oh - it just pisses me off when people complain about good customer service.

Since I first brought this up, there's something you need to understand:

I wouldn't give this player up for anything in the world for starters. Secondly, having sold this product for 15 years I can say with confidence that 80% of anyone who purchased this product doesn't even realize AVSforum even exists---but I'm willing to bet they registered their product.

Updating the firmware is childs play for certain---sorry I pissed you off by being mildly annoyed, but I'd really like this format to survive so I don't get stuck with another Laserdisc player. It's up to Pioneer, Sony, et al make sure all consumers get these updates.

Not just the folks ar AVSforums.

[Vader424242]

Originally Posted by eldithomaso

BLT, Vader and NYT guy:

The last thing we need in this thread is someone bemoaning Pioneer customer service with all of the other garbage dreged up with Sillysally and Ruined's debates pre 1.17.

eldithomaso,

I am in no way bemoaning their customer service (which I agree is very good). I monitor the boards anyway for FW update news, so I probably know about them before their customer service reps do... It is no inconvenience to burn an update, and actually I prefer to do so. I guess I was just spoiled by Toshiba FW update notifications back in the day (because, as you point out, one has to dredge through a lot of trash to get to the useful stuff anymore).

If you can't handle that little bit of inconvenience then return your 51/05 units and buy a BD 2.0 spec unit that downloads them automatically...

You can have my 05 when you pry it.... oh, you know...

[dealer6871]

Originally Posted by eldithomaso

Shsinclair:

From the discussions in the BDP-09 forum and here you are left with a 120hz cross over. I would cross my sub over at about 120 if you can tolerate the positionality at that level, set all speakers to small, set sub to on and then work the test tones the old fashion way using a Rat Shack Sound level meter and a BD setup disk such as Avia or Digital Video essentials. It seems - again from my survey of the posts - that the 51/05 may not evenly set all channels.

What receiver are you using that has no 7.1 channel or 5.1 channel crossovers etc.?

I had the 05 speaker adjustment set to "Small", running analog to my Krell Processor. The Krell has no base management on analog. The cross-over on my sub was set to max, since I was also using the 80hz on my Toshiba X-A2. I then changed the 05 speaker setting to "Large", using my Radio Shack meter and Avia disc to balance. The front soundstage on my B&W 9NT towers seemed to expand and I'm thinking that setting would be better in my situation then using "Small". Specs say my B&W towers go down to about 38hz. Any thoughts on whether I would get better performance adjusting the cross-over on my sub to 80hz or some other setting?

[Vader424242]

Originally Posted by dealer6871

I had the 05 speaker adjustment set to "Small", running analog to my Krell Processor. The Krell has no base management on analog. The cross-over on my sub was set to max, since I was also using the 80hz on my Toshiba X-A2. I then changed the 05 speaker setting to "Large", using my Radio Shack meter and Avia disc to balance. The front soundstage on my B&W 9NT towers seemed to expand and I'm thinking that setting would be better in my situation then using "Small". Specs say my B&W towers go down to about 38hz. Any thoughts on whether I would get better performance adjusting the cross-over on my sub to 80hz or some other setting?

Like you, I have the crossover in my Onkyo HD805 as well as my Denon AVR set to 80Hz. My mains are good down to about 35Hz (according to the specs, anyway), and my subs (dual SVS 20-39 PC+ cylinders) are flat down to about 17Hz (per measurement and PEQ). My reasoning is as follows: If I run my mains as 'Large', then any bass in the fronts below the rated 35Hz would simply disappear into the netherworld. While most movies have the real low stuff in the LFE channel anyway, it has been shown that some mixes put a lot of bass in the mains instead (this is one reason why so many complained about the bass - or lack thereof - in Transformers). I also know that U-571 puts full range bass in all channels, and not just the LFE.

Finally, I can guarantee that my subs (dual 12" drivers) will produce bass that is many times cleaner, smoother, and tighter than my mains (dual 8" each) could ever dream of.

IMO, unless you have true full range speakers designed for bass handling, it is better to let a dedicated subwoofer do the heavy lifting (and give the AVR a break besides)...

[NYC Guy]

Originally Posted by eldithomaso

BLT, Vader and NYT guy:

I would not complain at all. Take a few hours and check out Onkyo receiver 905 805 705 ect threads. Onkyo/Integra posts NOTHING on their website. Onkyo/Integra deny any updates exist and that anything needs updating in their POS products. Some users even have to hack a connector to get firmware updates for their units via RS232 ports since Onkyo screwed the pooch so bad in their first run units.

Pioneer posts updates on their website and tells us what is wrong and generally what is fixed.

The fact you got notified personally is a blessing. Pioneer has excellent customer service. Those who think othewise should go buy Onkyo then come back and try and complain about it... then you will understand.

The last thing we need in this thread is someone bemoaning Pioneer customer service with all of the other garbage dreged up with Sillysally and Ruined's debates pre 1.17.

Take some time guys. Check here and check Pioneer's support website before you and your wives bemoan firmware update issues. If you can't handle that little bit of inconvenience then return your 51/05 units and buy a BD 2.0 spec unit that downloads them automatically...

I am sure one of us would be happy to take them off your hands at a good price.

Oh - it just pisses me off when people complain about good customer service.

Two points in reply:

It is quite obvious to all that own the 05's & 51's that they are a work in progress. Hence the need for so many FW updates. I purchased my 05 after doing a great deal of research and knowing that there would be issues like this that they would be correcting later on.

I would never complain about Pioneer's excellent tech support department after receiving such fabulous service whenever I have called. However, when you buy a First Class ticket for a flight you expect First Class service. Just don't tell us we will be notified if they are not doing it and I wouldn't complain about that one aspect of their support. All Pioneer had to do was tell us to check their website periodically for these FW updates instead of saying we would be notified by email.

What we are speaking about here regarding the lack of notifications forthcoming from Pioneer should be considered constructive criticism which I was taught in school is a positive and not a negative.

PS, you would have to get past my vicious attack dog to put your hands on my 05.

[dealer6871]

Originally Posted by Vader424242

Like you, I have the crossover in my Onkyo HD805 as well as my Denon AVR set to 80Hz. My mains are good down to about 35Hz (according to the specs, anyway), and my subs (dual SVS 20-39 PC+ cylinders) are flat down to about 17Hz (per measurement and PEQ). My reasoning is as follows: If I run my mains as 'Large', then any bass in the fronts below the rated 35Hz would simply disappear into the netherworld. While most movies have the real low stuff in the LFE channel anyway, it has been shown that some mixes put a lot of bass in the mains instead (this is one reason why so many complained about the bass - or lack thereof - in Transformers). I also know that U-571 puts full range bass in all channels, and not just the LFE.

Finally, I can guarantee that my subs (dual 12" drivers) will produce bass that is many times cleaner, smoother, and tighter than my mains (dual 8" each) could ever dream of.

IMO, unless you have true full range speakers designed for bass handling, it is better to let a dedicated subwoofer do the heavy lifting (and give the AVR a break besides)...

I agree, which is the reason I run my X-A2 with "Small" in speaker setup. Just thought I read Ruined comment that with the 05 your better off running "Large" unless your using extremely small speakers such as Bose cubes. My amp is a Cary Cinema 5, so power is not so much an issue.

[CT_Wiebe]

dealer6871 -- Setting the 05's analog output BM to "large" or "small" is a function of the frequency performance of your mains (not their physical size), as well as the AVR being used, etc. (there are a whole lot of variables). Therefore, I doubt that Ruined ever made such a general statement regarding the 05's settings, without a lot of surrounding specifics (i.e., I think you may have taken his statement out of context).

[pgwalsh]

I'd like to mention a few good things and bad things with my experience. I have the 51FD going to Onkyo 885 and then to the Planar PD8150. As for picture quality, it's fantastic and I couldn't ask or hope for better. I let the Projector do the upscaling for SD DVD as I think the Gennum does really well for this. The screen is 140 2.40:1 and it blows away our plasma tv.

Unlike some others, I haven't had any disc issues at all. I've only watched a handful of Blu-ray's on it and they all played flawlessly. That includes Planet Earth, Spiderman 3, Transformers, Hanncock and Kung Fu Hussle.

One the downside from power on to being able to eject, it take about 70 seconds. I found that most of the people in my family get a little impatient with this and I too find it irritating. It takes much longer to boot than anything else in my setup.

If you use the discrete codes to eject it while booting or just loading a disc left in the tray, sometimes the unit freezes and can only be reset by unplugging it and plugging it back in. That really sucks.

And finally from inserting a disc to loading the Blu_ray menu I've had various results, but mostly it takes 25+ seconds. Sometimes it requires me to press play and enter. Not sure the deal with this. I wish it said loading... instead of close when loading the disc.

I like and keep the player as I think the pq is great, but I would like to see some improvements in the area's mentioned.

[Stew4msu]

Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe

dealer6871 -- Setting the 05's analog output BM to "large" or "small" is a function of the frequency performance of your mains (not their physical size), as well as the AVR being used, etc. (there are a whole lot of variables). Therefore, I doubt that Ruined ever made such a general statement regarding the 05's settings, without a lot of surrounding specifics (i.e., I think you may have taken his statement out of context).

Here's his post in its entirety:

Originally Posted by Ruined

In my experience unless you are using tiny Bose-cubes or the like, bass management hurts more than it helps. Running all speakers large w/sub sounds most natural to me IMO.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by pgwalsh

One the downside from power on to being able to eject, it take about 70 seconds.

This should only take ~25-30 seconds, it sounds like you are having nonstandard player behavior.

[soprano_777]

If you had to do it over again would you buy this unit, or something else. Looking for help on buying my frist blu-ray player. Thanks for your replys

[Dare On]

I have the BDP-05FD hooked up to a Yamaha RX-Z9 with the 7.1 analog connections. I'm considering upgrading to the RX-Z11. My question is for anyone connecting their 05 or 51 using HDMI for audio to a receiver (especially RX-Z11) that will decode Dolby True HD & DTS HD Master Audio. Can your receiver take a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 soundtrack and matrix the surround back channels in to make it 7.1? I know I am unable to do this using the analog connections, I'm just wondering if bitstreaming through HDMI and letting the receiver do the decoding will allow me to get 7.1 from a 5.1 soundtrack.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by soprano_777

If you had to do it over again would you buy this unit, or something else. Looking for help on buying my frist blu-ray player. Thanks for your replys

No doubt. Only thing on the market I'd consider otherwise is the Oppo S83, but that is still yet to be released and who knows when & how good it will be. Its specs look nice.

I'll put it this way. I was able to get two Panasonic BD35 players from Sears for $150/ea about a week ago. I am giving them away as gifts - hell I could eBay my Pioneer right now and keep one of the players and still be up $150+.

But, the reality is nothing else out there matches this player in overall A/V quality or build. There are faster players and ones that are more user-friendly, but none that look/sound better under a grand yet. I will likely keep this Pioneer until the full color 3D Blu-ray spec is unveiled in 2010, it is truly a solid machine.

My basic advice is to go with a cheaper Panasonic/Sony if you just want something that plays everything and looks pretty damn good. Go with the 51FD/05FD if you want maximum A/V quality and can deal with some of the quirks of the 51FD/05FD (covered in post#7).

[pgwalsh]

Originally Posted by soprano_777

If you had to do it over again would you buy this unit, or something else. Looking for help on buying my frist blu-ray player. Thanks for your replys

I needed the player for an install I did for my father, but I am personally waiting to see what Oppo offers with their new BDP-83. However, unlike the Pioneer, the Oppo may not offer 24p output, which doesn't matter to most people anyway.

[pgwalsh]

Originally Posted by Dare On

Can your receiver take a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 soundtrack and matrix the surround back channels in to make it 7.1?

No, I don't believe any pre/pro or receiver will matrix the HD formats.

[Vader424242]

Originally Posted by soprano_777

If you had to do it over again would you buy this unit, or something else. Looking for help on buying my frist blu-ray player. Thanks for your replys

Absolutely. With the current FW (1.17), this player is (IMO) living up to what Pioneer promised all along. Due largely to the negativity with previous FW versions (though I have had exactly zero problems starting with FW 1.02), a lot of people gave up on it and got a Panny 50 or something (which had greater reliability, but not as good build quality). Now that the player has caught up in terms of performance, I have the best of both worlds: performance and build quality. My condolences to all who jumped ship over a few seconds loading time...

[soprano_777]

Thanks for the info getting ready to upgrade my system (Great Wife) just about ready to pull the trigger on Pioneer elite SC-07 or SC-09. With that kind of investment Iwanted to make sure on the blu-ray. Thanks for the info. Also to pg walsh. New to this new thech. and kind of need to learn more ,so THANKS AGAIN TO BOTH OF YOU!

[eldithomaso]

Originally Posted by pgwalsh

I'd like to mention a few good things and bad things with my experience.

One the downside from power on to being able to eject, it take about 70 seconds. I found that most of the people in my family get a little impatient with this and I too find it irritating. It takes much longer to boot than anything else in my setup.


I like and keep the player as I think the pq is great, but I would like to see some improvements in the area's mentioned.

Agreed the player is rather slow but not horrid. I must say it is no PS3. The 70 second power on is way too slow. Most users it seems are at about 25-35 seconds. I am with firmware 1.17.

What firmware are you running - you didn't report that in your post. If you are not on 1.17 that may help tremendously.

[Shsinclair]

Originally Posted by eldithomaso

Shsinclair:

From the discussions in the BDP-09 forum and here you are left with a 120hz cross over. I would cross my sub over at about 120 if you can tolerate the positionality at that level, set all speakers to small, set sub to on and then work the test tones the old fashion way using a Rat Shack Sound level meter and a BD setup disk such as Avia or Digital Video essentials. It seems - again from my survey of the posts - that the 51/05 may not evenly set all channels.

What receiver are you using that has no 7.1 channel or 5.1 channel crossovers etc.?

I have a yamaha rx v 2600- the problem is it does not internally decode dts ma or true hd. Because it also can't pass a 1080p on to my panel I can't go hdmi either- I am stuck with multi channel in.

[pgwalsh]

Originally Posted by eldithomaso

Agreed the player is rather slow but not horrid. I must say it is no PS3. The 70 second power on is way too slow. Most users it seems are at about 25-35 seconds. I am with firmware 1.17.

What firmware are you running - you didn't report that in your post. If you are not on 1.17 that may help tremendously.

I'm running 1.17. It seemed faster with 1.02, but could just be in my head. I know it's taking this long because I've timed it. I have the URC MX-3000 and a macro that keeps the user from pressing buttons until everything is on and ready to go. I had to extend the time for the Pioneer.

But 70 isn't that big of a deal to me for the great pq. The bug that gets me is the eject and freeze issue. I can't always repeat it, but it's happened twice and once while I was showing off the system.

[eldithomaso]

Originally Posted by NYC Guy

Two points in reply:

It is quite obvious to all that own the 05's & 51's that they are a work in progress. Hence the need for so many FW updates. I purchased my 05 after doing a great deal of research and knowing that there would be issues like this that they would be correcting later on.

I would never complain about Pioneer's excellent tech support department after receiving such fabulous service whenever I have called. However, when you buy a First Class ticket for a flight you expect First Class service. All Pioneer had to do was tell us to check their website periodically for these FW updates instead of saying we would be notified by email.

What we are speaking about here regarding the lack of notifications forthcoming from Pioneer should be considered constructive criticism which I was taught in school is a positive and not a negative.

PS, you would have to get past my vicious attack dog to put your hands on my 05.

NYC and others:

Glad to hear we all have a good sense of humor and of tech support quality from Pioneer. My only concern with the BDP-05 was the lack of an ethernet port and the upgrade issues. With the knowledge that Pioneer posts on their site with upgrades I am more than satisfied.

However, I do see that constructive criticism is a good thing but I think the kind of customer support some are looking for with E-mail updates is a way off since most people don't register or even care to update their products unless you beat them into it. Fortunately it seems the 51 and the 05 are not Joe Schmoe products and most users are more savvy given the cost. Some of us did get support E-mails and I think Pioneer is truly trying to improve every step of the way. An ethernet port and auto updates (ala PS3 would make this unit perfect IMHO).

At present it seems most CE is a work in progress - I for one buy from manufacturers who offer 2 year or more warranties (given just this fact) and seem to actually WORK to make progress. Pioneer fits both bills.

TT man:

Since your not selling that 05 (glad to hear that) - is the Laserdisk player on the block? Laserdisks never looked so good with the current scaling technology. I must say that even though I hate my Integra and its flawed Reon with color shifts on HD upcoversion - LD looks pretty good when it scales through the Integra.

[eldithomaso]

Originally Posted by Shsinclair

I have a yamaha rx v 2600- the problem is it does not internally decode dts ma or true hd. Because it also can't pass a 1080p on to my panel I can't go hdmi either- I am stuck with multi channel in.

Shshinclair:

I would try both small and large and see how you like the results with the internal crossover in the player. What crossover options does the 2600 have? According to the web specs it says it has a 9 band sub crossover (I assume that means 9 frequency but don't know the unit).

I am not the best person to address this question since I don't have a setup with 7.1 that does not do BM so I (when I move to my analog receiver) will simply set the 51/05 to large and let my receiver do BM internally for me.

Wait wait - your 2600 has HDMI in - I think you can use HDMI for audio - chosing PCM output for same and then you can use Component for video. You clearly can't use HDMI for both since the receiver only supports 1080i not 1080p.

So set HDMI output to Audio = PCM use that for sound to the reciver and it will do BM for you, Then connect to your display VIDEO = Component
That should give you 1080P via Component and decoding of all of the Codecs via the unit (except for DTS-HD right now) via HDMI.

You don't need the 7.1 inputs at all...

Ruined - I am right that you can use HDMI audio and 1080p component video at the same time....?

[eldithomaso]

Originally Posted by pgwalsh

I'm running 1.17. It seemed faster with 1.02

...
But 70 isn't that big of a deal to me for the great pq. The bug that gets me is the eject and freeze issue. I can't always repeat it, but it's happened twice and once while I was showing off the system.

I think you need to call Customer Service - that makes no sense. Also you could try a reset of the unit. Did you do that after the 1.17 install?

Then check loading. If you are still over 45 seconds I would call it in to Pioneer CS - that is way way too long as Ruined stated.

[Hughman]

Originally Posted by pgwalsh

One the downside from power on to being able to eject, it take about 70 seconds. I found that most of the people in my family get a little impatient with this and I too find it irritating. It takes much longer to boot than anything else in my setup.

I see Ruined responded to this portion of your post but further to his post it's not clear from your post whether the 70 seconds to eject is with a disk in the tray or with the tray empty. 60-70 seconds from off to eject a disk already in the tray is normal, 25 seconds with no disk in tray is normal.

This player has modified my viewing habits. I rarely power down the system with a DVD in the tray anymore always making an effort to ensure I eject the disk beforehand. In preparation of returning rentals the following day I find it rather annoying to stand there waiting for the player to boot up before I can eject the darn thing.

[pgwalsh]

Originally Posted by Hughman

I see Ruined responded to this portion of your post but further to his post it's not clear from your post whether the 70 seconds to eject is with a disk in the tray or with the tray empty. 60-70 seconds from off to eject a disk already in the tray is normal, 25 seconds with no disk in tray is normal.

Disk already in tray. I always forget to take it out or just too lazy. Should have it automatically eject when I shut the system down and pop up a note.

I'll check it out both ways this week.

[Hughman]

Originally Posted by pgwalsh

Disk already in tray. I always forget to take it out or just too lazy. Should have it automatically eject when I shut the system down and pop up a note.

I'll check it out both ways this week.

There's nothing abnormal about the 70 seconds time then.

[Saturn94]

Originally Posted by NYC Guy

Don't complain, at least you received a notification for the FW. If it wasn't for this AVS Forum thread the vast majority of us would be clueless and getting frustrated with an older version of their FW and getting ready to return their 05's & 51's.

+1