Tier thread for audio

[Columbo345]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmkoselQ0c

^^^

Will someone explain to me why the opening THX "Plant" demo in front of "Indiana Jones: Kingdom of the Crystal" Skull BD sounds so good, despite being only DD 5.1 (640kbps)??

Was DD 5.1 capable of such great sound all along, but suffers only due to space? I mean, if a 20 second clip of a PCM track and a DD track played next to each other, maybe they would be closer?
What was disappointing in the Indiana Jones movie was no part ever came alive like the demo. Even the "crazy stuff" at the end with the boulders crashing didn't give the rear that oomph it should've had.

[rydenfan]

Originally Posted by Toe

The Police Certifiable..........................REFERENCE!!!!

We have a new concert audio champ in this one guys (IMO of course). UN-FRICKEN-BELIEVABLE! This is how concert audio should sound and be mixed on disc. This is one of those concert discs that NAILS what the low end should be like. I felt like I was given a nice soothing massage for the past 109 minutes. This is one of those discs that will test your systems low end capabilities not just in power but in quickness and response. A great one for a well eq'd sub(s). Infact, how good your sub is eq'd/calibrated to the mains could have a big part in your opinion of this disc as you dont want/need to run your sub hot for this one and any bumps in the sub FR could make the bass lines to loud and seem bloated which they are not.

Everything else about the mix was top notch as well. Vocals, guitar, drums are all mixed perfectly IMO and each can easily be picked out at any time. The presence of the mix is incredible with none of that phony lets try to recreate being at the show distant sound type BS that I cant stand about a LOT of concert discs. I could go on and on, but to sum it up if you are a fan of this band at all or just concert BR audio in general this is a must buy/listen (I would say rent, but that is still probably a tuff one since it is a Best Buy exclusive and last time I checked neither BB online or Netflix carried this for obvious reasons).

One other off topic side note.......This disc is HANDS DOWN the best PQ I have seen for a concert on BR! Incredibly clean, detailed, etc.....WOW!

Dont mean to gush, but this one is the whole package (if you like this band atleast to some degree) that is all to rare.

This is great news I have had it sitting here for awhile now and only got to view a track or two and was extremely impressed. I need to sit down and was the whole thing asap.

[JetJockey1]

Originally Posted by Toe

Wanted....................tier 0

Great all around track with nothing to complain about. At the same time I realy did not find any element all that exceptional and think this one is getting a bit overated.

I agree, very good but not a standout, IMO. Having said that, there were some very cool scenes with great audio and alot of fun.

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by shadowrage

We Were Soldiers(DTS-MA) Tier - Reference
This is exactly what you want to hear when you watch a hollywood war movie. Doesn't dethrone the king SPR, and I won't place it ahead of my personal favorite BHD. But I think it can go toe-to-toe with Letters(but that has the M1 Garand and modern recording equipment), it sounds better than Band of Brothers and puts Pearl Harbor to shame.

The guns make that ratatat sound, and don't sound hollywood. The M60s eat up more of the LFE while most other weapons are given some very solid mids to play around in(See IH not all weapons need to work the sub to its limits). It has pretty much constant surround use, speakers disappear dynamics are great. It literally goes from whisper to all hell breaking loose without breaking a sweat.

I think the helicopters here might sound better than the ones in BHD, at least in terms of movement in the soundscape, they go left, right, circle around, hover, go up, go down and you can hear every bit of their movement. Even when there's more than one on screen, very cool. Some of the explosions shake your room, and others level appropriately with proximity to camera or magnitude. Very aggressive and very pleasing.

Detail is great, nothing was left out. I could swear at one point I felt a bullet fly by my ear. If I have any complaints it's that the score comes through too clearly, because it might be the worst score for any war film ever. Somebody should of told the composer "hey bro, you know that theme with the snare and the gun clanking noise? It sounds ridiculous!" Some of the arrangements are just distracting. Oh and at the beginning whenever the characters are in doors, I got a little bit of this 'snow/noise' sound(it was on the DD encode too), I don't know if it was to make the soundscape more busy or if it was noise from a bad recording(which is entirely possible, some of the mic work isn't A grade, as plus there's no tacky ADR[there's probably some, but it doesn't stick out]}, anyway I didn't like that. Otherwise this is exactly what you expect.

shadow... thanks for the review. Very well thought and and I agree with almost everything you said...

If you have any specific questions about individual elements, shoot me a PM.... 2001 was a long time ago, but I have a pretty good memory when it comes to work.

Thanks again.. nice post to wake up to this morning.

BTW.... where did you import this from? I guess I'll have to pick up a copy.

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by Maestro J

Just got finished watching Wanted and I agree with the previous couple comments. Reference all the way.
Wife came downstairs and told me to turn it down. That's all I needed to hear to know that it's reference material.

Of all the films I have heard this year so far, "Wanted" has the best sound design I've heard... cohesive and creative to the extreme (some of the coolest dialog design with the slo mo voices and treatments... )

It is also a great example of a a picture editor who understands sound... the entire movie has an incredible rhythm.... textbook in my opinion.

I won't be surprised if they received nominations for sound editing and mixing.. I'll be disappointed, frankly, if they don't.

(For full disclosure, I've worked with the picture editor and the sound editorial was done at our sister company, and I've done many films with the sound designer and supervising sound editor.... no bias, just pure appreciation for their work.)

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by Columbo345

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmkoselQ0c

^^^

Will someone explain to me why the opening THX "Plant" demo in front of "Indiana Jones: Kingdom of the Crystal" Skull BD sounds so good, despite being only DD 5.1 (640kbps)??

Was DD 5.1 capable of such great sound all along, but suffers only due to space? I mean, if a 20 second clip of a PCM track and a DD track played next to each other, maybe they would be closer?

It's the content, not the codec.

DD at 640 is no slouch...

[Toe]

Originally Posted by rydenfan

This is great news I have had it sitting here for awhile now and only got to view a track or two and was extremely impressed. I need to sit down and was the whole thing asap.

YES, you do need to sit and watch this whole show! This one is amazing. I was actualy trying to talk my GF into watching this last night after coming off my viewing, but she was not up for a concert. She agreed to watch it tonight though.

Originally Posted by JetJockey1

I agree, very good but not a standout, IMO. Having said that, there were some very cool scenes with great audio and alot of fun.

Yeah, I thought it was a very solid track, but nothing about it screamed ref IMO. Definately some fun scenes though and some great audio moments. I can think of atleast 20 other scenes I would throw on to show off the HT before anything in Wanted, but that is just me

[Skid71]

Originally Posted by Toe

The Police Certifiable..........................REFERENCE!!!!

We have a new concert audio champ in this one guys (IMO of course). UN-FRICKEN-BELIEVABLE! This is how concert audio should sound and be mixed on disc. This is one of those concert discs that NAILS what the low end should be like. I felt like I was given a nice soothing massage for the past 109 minutes. This is one of those discs that will test your systems low end capabilities not just in power but in quickness and response. A great one for a well eq'd sub(s). Infact, how good your sub is eq'd/calibrated to the mains could have a big part in your opinion of this disc as you dont want/need to run your sub hot for this one and any bumps in the sub FR could make the bass lines to loud and seem bloated which they are not.

Everything else about the mix was top notch as well. Vocals, guitar, drums are all mixed perfectly IMO and each can easily be picked out at any time. The presence of the mix is incredible with none of that phony lets try to recreate being at the show distant sound type BS that I cant stand about a LOT of concert discs. I could go on and on, but to sum it up if you are a fan of this band at all or just concert BR audio in general this is a must buy/listen (I would say rent, but that is still probably a tuff one since it is a Best Buy exclusive and last time I checked neither BB online or Netflix carried this for obvious reasons).

One other off topic side note.......This disc is HANDS DOWN the best PQ I have seen for a concert on BR! Incredibly clean, detailed, etc.....WOW!

Dont mean to gush, but this one is the whole package (if you like this band atleast to some degree) that is all to rare.

A few others I watched since Monday.

Tropic Thunder................Tier1
I would agree with whomever labled this disc the comedy audio king in this thread (cant recall who that was at the moment).

Get Smart.......................Tier2

You dont mess with the Zohan..............Tier 2

You (well...whomever mixed Foo Fighters) broke my heart....
Then you totally save the day. Anxiously looking forward to this blind buy.
Thanks for the review Toe.

Skid

[Toe]

Originally Posted by Skid71

You (well...whomever mixed Foo Fighters) broke my heart....
Then you totally save the day. Anxiously looking forward to this blind buy.
Thanks for the review Toe.

Skid

Dont count the Foo Fighters out before you listen to it yourself as you may like the mix. These concert mixes especialy seem to have a LOT of variation as far as opinion. Me and jetjocky1 for instance are on complete opposite ends of our opinion on the Live from Abbey Road best of season 1 BR as far as the mix, but we both agree 100% on the Police show. Have you listened to the Foo Fighters show yet? I would be curious to read others opinion on this disc.

I cant say enough good things about the Police mix though, but this is the kind of mix I like and I am sure there will be some who prefer a mix that tries to create being in the audience more. I love hot, crispy sound boards that have a very present sound to them and establish a solid low end foundation.

I am curious to hear your opinion on both of these when you listen to them

[truffleshuffle83]

Originally Posted by Toe

Dont count the Foo Fighters out before you listen to it yourself as you may like the mix. These concert mixes especialy seem to have a LOT of variation as far as opinion. Me and jetjocky1 for instance are on complete opposite ends of our opinion on the Live from Abbey Road best of season 1 BR as far as the mix, but we both agree 100% on the Police show. Have you listened to the Foo Fighters show yet? I would be curious to read others opinion on this disc.

I cant say enough good things about the Police mix though, but this is the kind of mix I like and I am sure there will be some who prefer a mix that tries to create being in the audience more. I love hot, crispy sound boards that have a very present sound to them and establish a solid low end foundation.

I am curious to hear your opinion on both of these when you listen to them

i love the foo live at wembley, hopefully they release skin and bones on blu ray (wishful thinking)

[Toe]

Originally Posted by truffleshuffle83

i love the foo live at wembley,

What is your opinion of the AQ?

[Shane Martin]

The Police Certifiable..........................REFERENCE!!!!

Good to hear. I have to wait until Christmas to open mine.

I would also recommend Wanted and Prince Caspian for Reference. I thought Wanted had a similar sound design as KFP. The rears, sidewall imaging and panning were stunning with DPLIIX over 5.1 DTS MA.

PC was pretty amazing also.

[truffleshuffle83]

Originally Posted by Toe

What is your opinion of the AQ?

i thought it was great, could be my foo fanboyism shining through, but i really love the show that grohl put on

id say a 4.5/5 for both video and audio


what is the argument against the audio?

[Toe]

Originally Posted by truffleshuffle83

i thought it was great, could be my foo fanboyism shining through, but i really love the show that grohl put on

id say a 4.5/5 for both video and audio


what is the argument against the audio?

No argument. I was just telling Skid71 to listen to the Foo show before writing it off due to my less than favorable review or the SQ as he may like it.

[alexg75]

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

It's the content, not the codec.

DD at 640 is no slouch...

Here Ye,Here Ye to all the doubters about lossy codecs.
Thanks Marc......

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

Lucas isn't a "Dolby" guy... Dolby EX came to fruition from Gary Rydstrom's request, not George Lucas'. As you know, Spielberg was one of the original financial investors in DTS, and has been know to still make requests that studios release product in DTS when available (which I was mistaken about in the past.)

But is one an "investor" when the share in the company is given to you?

Anyway, since everyone seems to have forgotten SPR was the first DTS 768kbps rate DVD, previous titles were at the full rate. Special attention was given, including apparently a direct encode off the stems and not the printmaster.

[Skid71]

Originally Posted by Toe

Dont count the Foo Fighters out before you listen to it yourself as you may like the mix. These concert mixes especialy seem to have a LOT of variation as far as opinion. Me and jetjocky1 for instance are on complete opposite ends of our opinion on the Live from Abbey Road best of season 1 BR as far as the mix, but we both agree 100% on the Police show. Have you listened to the Foo Fighters show yet? I would be curious to read others opinion on this disc.

I cant say enough good things about the Police mix though, but this is the kind of mix I like and I am sure there will be some who prefer a mix that tries to create being in the audience more. I love hot, crispy sound boards that have a very present sound to them and establish a solid low end foundation.

I am curious to hear your opinion on both of these when you listen to them

Toe,
I'm certainly not writing Foo off. I'll be owning it. Actually you'll have to wait a bit for my reviews. Like Shane, I'll have to wait for Christmas. I told Santa that these are the two Blu-Rays that the elves must send my way.

I've been a very bad boy... and that's the way my Santa likes it.

Skid

[Toe]

Originally Posted by Skid71

Toe,
I'm certainly not writing Foo off. I'll be owning it. Actually you'll have to wait a bit for my reviews. Like Shane, I'll have to wait for Christmas. I told Santa that these are the two Blu-Rays that the elves must send my way.

I've been a very bad boy... and that's the way my Santa likes it.

Skid

lol! Nice Glad to hear it and look forward to your reviews.

[truffleshuffle83]

Originally Posted by Skid71

I've been a very bad boy... and that's the way my Santa likes it.

Skid

if you're not the pretender its times like these that you are my hero

sorry gotta stick with a foo theme

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

But is one an "investor" when the share in the company is given to you?

I've never heard they were gifted, but I won't dispute that claim if you can provide a souce... the public story has always been that he was an investor of funds at some point in the companies history, whether or not some shares were gifted... not an important point, but I'd love some of your insight if you wish to share.

DTS Business Background Story from Answers.com

1993: Important New Investors

In February 1993 Universal Studios, Spielberg, and a Beard-led group of investors split equity stakes in the firm, which became known as Digital Theater Systems L.P. Beard and his small staff immediately began working long hours to build playback units for hundreds of theaters in preparation for the June 11 opening of Jurassic Park. They were able to install 876 systems around the United States for clients like Cineplex Odeon Corporation, which bought 125 units for its chain of theaters. Exhibitors who did not purchase it were still able to show Jurassic Park with the analog Dolby Stereo track printed on the film as a backup in case the digital sound failed to work.

Anyway, since everyone seems to have forgotten SPR was the first DTS 768kbps rate DVD, previous titles were at the full rate. Special attention was given, including apparently a direct encode off the stems and not the printmaster.

I didn't forget that point, but didn't think it would be of any relevance... with lossy encodes, there is very little you can do to "fool" then encoder into sounding better... it's very difficult to do with constant bitrate codecs.... the things you can do are to mono the surrounds, or at the least mono certain bands of the tracks to encode them as one, etc... but going back to stems won't help the limitation inherent in lowering the bitrate... it only saves a generational loss that might've been evident because the film was mixed on analog SR.. not saying that they definitively didn't go back, but I can think of no reason that the lower bitrate would be one of them... doesn't make sense to me.

Which would imply a new master was made... there is no way to "direct encode" off of stems without going through a mixing console to sum the tracks... if done in real time, you are limited to the changes you can make to the stems (fully automated consoles weren't all the rage back then).... they might have made a new DTS print-master... which would support all of the speculation that hovers around this title...

Still waiting for the straight story from my DTS contact.

[Fanaticalism]

Hancock truly was a HUGE disappointment.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

I've never heard they were gifted, but I won't dispute that claim if you can provide a souce... the public story has always been that he was an investor of funds at some point in the companies history, whether or not some shares were gifted... not an important point, but I'd love some of your insight if you wish to share.

Speilberg got his share in exchange for allowing Jurassic Park to be the sole digital format in the US. It had been planned as a Dolby Digital presentation and was overseas.

they might have made a new DTS print-master... which would support all of the speculation that hovers around this title...

From what I've been told this is exactly what they did. It was not the one used for the DD version.

There's a few films out there with different printmasters. For example Star Trek: Generations used one different from the THX DD LD for the first DVD (which sounded smoother but much less dynamic), and then went back to the LD one for the SE DD/DTS version.

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

From what I've been told this is exactly what they did. It was not the one used for the DD version.

Peter... would you care to share where you are getting all of this information from?

Meant as no offense, but it's a lot of "I've heard" and "I've been told" but I think it's beneficial for all those reading your posts to understand the validity and source of your information, as a lot of it comes off as informed, definitive, inside information...

You know where I get all of my hot air from.

[RBFC]

Another example previously used is Spiderman3, where the Dolby TrueHD track is 24 bit, and the uncompressed PCM track is 16 bit. There are apparently audible differences between the two tracks. Therefore, it's also possible that a different bit depth encode of the SAME master might produce differences. I believe the master was 24 bit, IIRC.

Lee

[kinglerxt]

Cant wait to get my copy.

How would you compare it to Rush's Snakes and Arrows BD which has also received high marks for PQ and SQ?

Originally Posted by Toe

The Police Certifiable..........................REFERENCE!!!!

We have a new concert audio champ in this one guys (IMO of course). UN-FRICKEN-BELIEVABLE! This is how concert audio should sound and be mixed on disc. This is one of those concert discs that NAILS what the low end should be like. I felt like I was given a nice soothing massage for the past 109 minutes. This is one of those discs that will test your systems low end capabilities not just in power but in quickness and response. A great one for a well eq'd sub(s). Infact, how good your sub is eq'd/calibrated to the mains could have a big part in your opinion of this disc as you dont want/need to run your sub hot for this one and any bumps in the sub FR could make the bass lines to loud and seem bloated which they are not.

[Toe]

Originally Posted by kinglerxt

Cant wait to get my copy.

How would you compare it to Rush's Snakes and Arrows BD which has also received high marks for PQ and SQ?

Understand that I prefer a very present type mix/recording and one that gives my subs something to do and does not try and recreate being in the audience so to speak.

Having said that and after watching the Rush Snakes and Arrows BD last night, it is night and day between the 2 soundtracks/mixes/recordings. The Police disc is MUCH better as far as recording/mix IMO. I actualy checked to see if my subs were on watching the Rush disc last night and even though they were, they were hardly moving at all. Check out how hard Geddy is working that bass and Neil on the drums......Huge dissapointment for me, but the Rush mix was obviously going for a sound experience that not only tries to replicate being in the audience (distant type sound) but also tried to capture the particular venue the band was playing at as far as acoustics (echo/harshness type of thing that only a nice arena can give you) and in the process lost the low end that should be there in the drums/bass guitar. I personaly was not impressed, but again you may like it as some like this type of recording/mix of trying to recreate being at the show. I personaly want the most uber quality recording of the music possible as I could not care less about recreating that atmosphere in my calibrated HT as I simply want the purest recording/mix of the music which should include a nice low end foundation. Here is what I wrote in the Snakes and Arrows thread in response to 3 other members who also did not like this mix and felt the same way I did....




Uhgggg! Agreed with all this. Just watched this and this is not my kind of concert AQ on disc. This sounds like a very high quality audience recording. I DONT WANT THAT AT HOME listening on a nice calibrated system! I want a nice, crispy board feed coming through my speakers/sub. I guess some may like this type of sound for a BR recording to watch at home as obviously it is trying to capture the sound of not only being in the audience, but the particular arena acoustics/echo as well, but not me. What is up with the guitar volume in the rear speakers? Where is the low end foundation? You should be able to feel the bass drum in your gut (refer to Police BR) you should be able to FEEL those low notes penetrate your body when Geddy hits them(refer to Police BR). Sorry for the rant, but I dont personaly like this type of recording/mix for a home presentation. Just my opinion as I am sure some prefer this.

One more thing is the show itself, IMO, is killer which is probably why I am as dissapointed as I am with the recording/mix/sound. I think this band is amazing and I was realy hoping this would finaly be the Rush disc that had that very present, crisp, thick sound, especialy in the low end, as I was never that fond of the mix on Rio or R30 either, but oh well.




Like I said though, take my comments with a grain of salt as I am picky about my concert recordings/mixes and the Police disc, John Mayer, NIN, Dave and Tim, Live from Abbey Road: Best of season 1... all nail it (or close enough) while some fall way short for me. Best to listen for yourself though as you may realy like it since some like what they were going for with the recording/mix.

[FilmMixer]

Originally Posted by Toe

Understand that I prefer a very present type mix/recording and one that gives my subs something to do and does not try and recreate being in the audience so to speak.

Having said that and after watching the Rush Snakes and Arrows BD last night, it is night and day between the 2 soundtracks/mixes/recordings. The Police disc is MUCH better as far as recording/mix IMO. I actualy checked to see if my subs were on watching the Rush disc last night and even though they were, they were hardly moving at all. Check out how hard Geddy is working that bass and Neil on the drums......Huge dissapointment for me, but the Rush mix was obviously going for a sound experience that not only tries to replicate being in the audience (distant type sound) but also tried to capture the particular venue the band was playing at as far as acoustics (echo/harshness type of thing that only a nice arena can give you) and in the process lost the low end that should be there in the drums/bass guitar. I personaly was not impressed, but again you may like it as some like this type of recording/mix of trying to recreate being at the show. I personaly want the most uber quality recording of the music possible as I could not care less about recreating that atmosphere in my calibrated HT as I simply want the purest recording/mix of the music which should include a nice low end foundation. Here is what I wrote in the Snakes and Arrows thread in response to 3 other members who also did not like this mix and felt the same way I did....




Uhgggg! Agreed with all this. Just watched this and this is not my kind of concert AQ on disc. This sounds like a very high quality audience recording. I DONT WANT THAT AT HOME listening on a nice calibrated system! I want a nice, crispy board feed coming through my speakers/sub. I guess some may like this type of sound for a BR recording to watch at home as obviously it is trying to capture the sound of not only being in the audience, but the particular arena acoustics/echo as well, but not me. What is up with the guitar volume in the rear speakers? Where is the low end foundation? You should be able to feel the bass drum in your gut (refer to Police BR) you should be able to FEEL those low notes penetrate your body when Geddy hits them(refer to Police BR). Sorry for the rant, but I dont personaly like this type of recording/mix for a home presentation. Just my opinion as I am sure some prefer this.

Like I said though, take my comments with a grain of salt as I am picky about my concert recordings/mixes and the Police disc, John Mayer, NIN, Dave and Tim, Live from Abbey Road: Best of season 1... all nail it (or close enough) while some fall way short for me. Best to listen for yourself though as you may realy like it since some like what they were going for with the recording/mix.

Toe.. you know I stay away from most criticism for film tracks for obvious reasons, but I'll gladly chime in with you on these concert discs.

I mix dialog and music, and the film I just finished mixing has 4 different Rush "scenes".... and they filmed a scene with the band playing a live gig ("Limelight.") I only had a stereo board mix to work from... needless to say, IMHO and with pride, my two minute scene sounds worlds better than this disc (plenty of sub for you )... and we mixed it so that we are more with the main characters in the audience rather that as a concert scene.

Biggest disappointment in a mix for me... Ever!

When I first put it in and started listening, it thought my center speaker went away or died... where was the vocal? As I listened more and more, it occurred to me that maybe they lost the stage vocal mics.. it sounds like all ambience and no direct.... did they have technical issues the nights they filmed? It doesn't sound like discrete, multi-track recordings at all..

I could go on, but you nailed it... one of the worst live music presentations I've ever heard...

[Kevin12586]

I watched The Sentinel (DTS-MA 5.1) a few nights ago and I rate it tier 0, if others feel it is reference, I would have a hard time disagreeing with them. It is a mostly dialouge driven movie so there isn't much bass, but this doesn't take away from the movie at all. I can't put my finger on why I am holding back from recommending reference though.

Surround use is excellent thoughout, the scene that stands out in my mind is when a bunch of school kids are singing and the song can be heard from all speakers. I have a 7.1 setup and had sound coming at me from all directions.

With the exception of one scene where the actors accent was the cause, dialouge was never a problem.

The movie is also better than I thought it would be.

[Toe]

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

it sounds like all ambience and no direct.... did they have technical issues the nights they filmed? It doesn't sound like discrete, multi-track recordings at all..
...

EXACTLY.

I would LOVE to hear/see that 2 minute scene you mixed just to get a sample of what live Rush should sound like on disc when coming right off the board. I have no doubt it would be WAY better than this recording/mix off Snakes and Arrows. The latest Foo Fighters show was very similar to this Snakes and Arrows show to my ears as far as recording/mix or however this was done. I hope this does not become a trend with BR concerts!

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by FilmMixer

Peter... would you care to share where you are getting all of this information from?

Meant as no offense, but it's a lot of "I've heard" and "I've been told" but I think it's beneficial for all those reading your posts to understand the validity and source of your information, as a lot of it comes off as informed, definitive, inside information...

You know where I get all of my hot air from.

Check your PM.