If Pioneer Kills Its TV Business, How Will It Affect You?

[pilot715]

Originally Posted by [Irishman]

LCD may be making faster headway (some moves are questionable and will fall by the wayside), but that is only because they had farther from which to rise, in the pq department. THEY had to innovate or die. And now, after all these years, LCD is finally becoming a viable alternative to ppl who want a HDTV to look great.

It is interesting to me, what real innovations you observed in LCD for the last years? (except for transition of some models on LED illumination)

[[Irishman]]

Originally Posted by pilot715

It is interesting to me, what real innovations you observed in LCD for the last years? (except for transition of some models on LED illumination)

Fair enough.

1. Better black levels
2. Local dimming
3. Less smearing
4. Better color fidelity
5. More even lighting (most recently due to LED)
6. 24p playback
7. 120 Hz I consider a win-lose. Why? Because to a distinct percentage of us, its accompanying frame interpolation looks cartoony when the effect is at full blast. Thankfully, on some sets like Samsungs 9 series, you can ramp it down, or turn it off altogether.
8. I thought Sharp had it right by simply quickening their response time. I never could understand why Samsung and Sharp, et al, couldn't do it too.

[SystemShock2]

Originally Posted by '[Irishman

Plasma has been the king of the hill from a pq standpoint, and if plasma is 18 months from extinction, then so is LCD.

Thanks largely to Pioneer, plasma definitely has plenty of PQ bragging rights. But it appears that Pio, arguably the leading innovator in plasmas, is leaving the market. So where does that leave plasma then?

LCD has dominant market share in flat panels... in Q1 2008, LCD outsold plasma by about 8 to 1 worldwide: (not rubbing it in, just being realistic)

http://www.digitalhome.ca/content/view/2538/206/

So, while plasma has much to recommend it, the broader market does not seem to understand this, and buys accordingly. I think "18 months from extinction" is an overstatement, but there's definitely a scenario where plasma either goes away or becomes incredibly niche in the next few years.

So, to equate LCD's fate with plasma's seems odd. Why would LCD go away in 18 months if it's doing so well? OLED doesn't look like it's going to be affordable any time soon. SED seems like a pipe dream. Plasma doesn't seem like it will become massively resurgent in market share, in fact more and more companies seem to be shifting resources to LCD. So what would cause the extinction of LCD in 18 months, aside from a giant meteor hitting the earth?

Just wonderin'.

[pilot715]

Originally Posted by [Irishman]

Fair enough.

1. Better black levels

What is this? The screen filter?

2. Local dimming

You wish to tell, there was a black color on LCD? I shall disappoint you, simply switch off light in the room.

3. Less smearing

Basically because of a software

4. Better color fidelity

I agree

5. More even lighting (most recently due to LED)

With brightness at LCD practically never was problems. LED is necessary not for brightness and for exact transfer of colour.

6. 24p playback

soft

7. 120 Hz I consider a win-lose. Why? Because to a distinct percentage of us, its accompanying frame interpolation looks cartoony when the effect is at full blast. Thankfully, on some sets like Samsungs 9 series, you can ramp it down, or turn it off altogether.

Show me that who can precisely explain for what all these Hertz? At their Panasonic even 480!

8. I thought Sharp had it right by simply quickening their response time. I never could understand why Samsung and Sharp, et al, couldn't do it too.

I agree


You have forgotten to add HDMI input

So, the most part of that you have told as it is possible to carry and to plasmas. All it has not something in common with LCD technology, except for time of the response and increase in colour space. I consider that the basic achievement in LCD technology became reduction of the size of pixel at the expense of what began possible to make inexpensive matrixes with a small diagonal and the high definition.

[[Irishman]]

Originally Posted by SystemShock2

Thanks largely to Pioneer, plasma definitely has plenty of PQ bragging rights. But it appears that Pio, arguably the leading innovator in plasmas, is leaving the market. So where does that leave plasma then?

LCD has dominant market share in flat panels... in Q1 2008, LCD outsold plasma by about 8 to 1 worldwide: (not rubbing it in, just being realistic)

http://www.digitalhome.ca/content/view/2538/206/

So, while plasma has much to recommend it, the broader market does not seem to understand this, and buys accordingly. I think "18 months from extinction" is an overstatement, but there's definitely a scenario where plasma either goes away or becomes incredibly niche in the next few years.

So, to equate LCD's fate with plasma's seems odd. Why would LCD go away in 18 months if it's doing so well? OLED doesn't look like it's going to be affordable any time soon. SED seems like a pipe dream. Plasma doesn't seem like it will become massively resurgent in market share, in fact more and more companies seem to be shifting resources to LCD. So what would cause the extinction of LCD in 18 months, aside from a giant meteor hitting the earth?

Just wonderin'.

I just don't agree with your doom and gloom assessment.

What size range performs the best for LCDs? I think it's telling that it's the range in which there is no real plasma competition - the sub 42" range. As you go up in size from 42" up to 65", plasma dominates more and more, largely because the manufacturing costs for equivalent plasma are lower than LCD.

So, depending on the size range (whether or not there is plasma competition), and the relative cost of the panels, either LCD or plasma can dominate a flat panel segment.

Since more and more households are on their 2nd, 3rrd, or even 4th HDTV now, secondary rooms that don't need a big screen, LCD does phenomenally well.

Doesn't mean plasma is sailing without rudder. Doesn't mean plasma is dying.

I could just as easily throw out some comment that if LCD makers don't get their act together and produce panels that are cost-competitive with the largest plasmas, then they're toast.

But it's no more true than your assessment of plasma's future.

[[Irishman]]

Originally Posted by pilot715

So, the most part of that you have told as it is possible to carry and to plasmas. All it has not something in common with LCD technology, except for time of the response and increase in colour space. I consider that the basic achievement in LCD technology became reduction of the size of pixel at the expense of what began possible to make inexpensive matrixes with a small diagonal and the high definition.

Pilot, you may not agree with it, but LCD has improved their PQ.

I still prefer plasma.

[jackass414]

Originally Posted by viper37

The loss is indirect for me.

Pioneer was rated as the best of the best, so others had something to look out for.

There is now a little less incentive for current plasma makers to outdo themselves, and a little less icentive for everyone to develop new technologies (SED, OLED, etc).

THIS.


I am just mad that if something happens in the next 3 years to my 5020, I will have to get it replaced by BB with something that isn't a pioneer. I am sorry I have owner most of em: Sammy, Sony, Panny....all high end models, and none of them have been anywhere near as pleasing as my pioneer.

It makes me sad that the next TV I buy wont be a pioneer.

[Solo4114]

It'll depend on what happens, but I could see Panny snapping up Pio's technology and incorporating it, which would be a good thing. If they could figure out better manufacturing economies and such, the best case scenario would be that Pio's tech lives on (even if it stagnates -- which, honestly, isn't such a bad thing since it's pretty damn good as it is), but is made available to consumers at a the lower prices Panny seems able to handle. While you might lose some amenities as a result (IE: no more detachable speaker or whathaveyou), would this really be such a terrible thing?

[SystemShock2]

Originally Posted by [Irishman]

I just don't agree with your doom and gloom assessment.

I was playing devil's advocate a bit. However, it's difficult to look at facts such as LCD outselling plasma 8-to-1 worldwide, and not wonder if plasma is indeed destined for niche status.

What size range performs the best for LCDs? I think it's telling that it's the range in which there is no real plasma competition - the sub 42" range. As you go up in size from 42" up to 65", plasma dominates more and more, largely because the manufacturing costs for equivalent plasma are lower than LCD.

I tend to agree with that, but I also think the ground is starting to shift away from plasma as LCDs get bigger and bigger.

For example, if you go look at the best-selling TV charts over at Amazon, only 8 of the Top 50 are plasmas, nearly all the rest are LCD. Many of the best-selling TVs are 46- and 52-inch LCDs. Basically, LCD is already encroaching on what was previously 'plasma turf'. I would expect that trend to continue and only intensify.

Since more and more households are on their 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th HDTV now, secondary rooms that don't need a big screen, LCD does phenomenally well.

Actually, HDTV penetration is still pretty low in the US, on the order of only about a third of all homes:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/11/12...-s-households/

Contrary to what you say, most of us really don't have HDTVs coming out of our ears in our homes. Many ppl are still buying their first HDTV set, and they tend to buy LCD even then, as sales figures show.

Doesn't mean plasma is sailing without rudder. Doesn't mean plasma is dying.

I definitely don't want plasma to die. It has several significant advantages over LCD, and it pushes LCD makers to do better.

But the trends seem to be pointing to plasma being pushed into a niche in the very large set category. Many would say that this process is well under way already. And of course, even there, it will still have to compete with LCDs, as those get ever larger.

I could just as easily throw out some comment that if LCD makers don't get their act together and produce panels that are cost-competitive with the largest plasmas, then they're toast.

I don't see why you would. LCD competes on plasma's turf (large sets), but plasma seems unable to compete strongly on LCD's turf (small and mid-size sets). For good or ill, LCD is obviously not the one in danger of becoming heated bread slices.

But it's no more true than your assessment of plasma's future.

I would say that the process of plasma becoming niche is already well under way. Pioneer's possible exit from plasma and attempts to get into the LCD market are only the latest signs.

I would like to see Pioneer technology transferred to a reasonably capable mid-price TV maker, such as Panasonic, which could possibly strengthen plasma's position in the market. Though I have my doubts about that occurring to any very significant degree.

Frankly, I'm not sure what can reverse plasma's slide. It could be as simple as Panasonic's work in increasing plasma brightness... if a plasma can sit right next to a torch-mode LCD on the showroom floor and have the same kind of 'first glance' appeal, then that might be very helpful.

But then again, it may be that the public has written off plasma as 'old technology', dim, prone to burn-in, etc etc, and that their mindshare has gone to LCD in a more or less permanent way until the next major 'new kid on the block' technology shows up.

It would be sad if it plays out that way, because it means that most consumers will be confined to one display technology for the next several years. More competition is nearly always better for the consumer.

[BrownTown]

Well, I think that the Model store has hurt plasma. I remember growing up and going with my dad to HH Gregg & Circuit City etc.... and all of their CRT TV's were in a very dark area. Sometimes you had to get real close to read the price since it was so dark in there.

Now with Walmart, Sams, Costco, Best Buy, CC, ect... the TV isle is as bright as the checkout.

[HarrisonS]

Thankfully, I already have a PRO-150FD KURO. I may get a PRO-111FD as a second set while I can. For the future, I may just wait and see how the technology develops. LCD's continue to make big improvements, and plasmas from other brands are improving too. OLED looks interesting, but I understand that it too has burn-in issues, which are more serious than those with plasmas. In any case, I think it will be a long time before it becomes competetive with plasmas and LCD's in size and price. And then there is SED, which may finally see the light of day, now that a major legal log jam has been broken!

[BrownTown]

Maybe Pioneer will team up with Crapple computers and come out with a white frame SED Kuro in 2012 that will blow everything else away

[mhufnagel]

This isn't really surprising.

A friend of mine was a sales rep for Pio's car audio division. They let him go a few years ago because he was making too much money. Pioneer has had problems long before the current economic crisis, so let's not put all of the blame on that. They really are too small to compete in this business.

[[Irishman]]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Maybe Pioneer will team up with Crapple computers and come out with a white frame SED Kuro in 2012 that will blow everything else away

Maybe. Apple is gaining market share. 10% now.

[uni_panther]

I doesn't really affect me other than being pretty surprised by it is all. I think it is the first sign of the death of Plasma. Sad to see a great technology go. As for me I picked up a Kuro 151 in late November and was thinking it would be the last "pure" Kuro but didn't realize it would be the last one period. My plan was to keep it for 5 to 7 years and wait to see how OLED came around. This is still my plan and hope. With Pioneer exiting the PDP business I guess the only way it affects me is next year I won't be envious of the new lineups because more than likely my display will still be the top display on the market. I wouldn't doubt it being the reference display for professional reviews for the next couple of years.

[ROMAN O]

Originally Posted by uni_panther

I wouldn't doubt it being the reference display for professional reviews for the next couple of years.

I would agree with that for sure.

[burnsalkire]

Originally Posted by lightforce18

Which model? A950?

No. It is the LN32A550. I have space constraints in my bedroom and could no larger than 32". It is a decent set but kind of a let down when I start watching a program on my Kuro and then decide to finish watching it on the Samsung. The Samsung PQ is so far behind.

[burnsalkire]

Originally Posted by Yahwey

The smartest thing in the world for Pioneer to do is to get out of the money losing plasma business.

Plasma is a dying and flawed technology, not much else can be done to improve it.

There's much more to PQ than the deepest black levels and ECC.

And Panasonic, LG and Samsung have all modernized Pioneer's panel designs with more efficiency.

One can have a bigger and better PQ on a Panny 58" for $400 more than a 5020 Kuro out of the box.

Granted, real videophiles appreciate the Elites, but also CRT RPs, some FPs/DLP-RPs, Panny 850 and THX models for much cheaper. The Pio 5020 is hardly a consideration but is the 2nd most expensive 50" '08 plasma out there.

And don't forget that LCD tech is 18 months away from making us all finally forget about plasma.

I say to Pioneer, kill the money pit - or the elitest image for non elite products, before it kills you.

I think you should stay away from the cooking sherry

[HarrisonS]

My biggest concern now, I believe, is whether Pioneer will continue to provide parts and service, should we ever need it, for those of us who already have KUROs.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by [Irishman]

Fair enough.

1. Better black levels
2. Local dimming
3. Less smearing
4. Better color fidelity
5. More even lighting (most recently due to LED)
6. 24p playback
7. 120 Hz I consider a win-lose. Why? Because to a distinct percentage of us, its accompanying frame interpolation looks cartoony when the effect is at full blast. Thankfully, on some sets like Samsungs 9 series, you can ramp it down, or turn it off altogether.
8. I thought Sharp had it right by simply quickening their response time. I never could understand why Samsung and Sharp, et al, couldn't do it too.

I Agree with these points. However, LCD is still a JOKE in one huge area: Off angle viewing. Unless you are single and never watch a TV with anyone then LCDs simply dont cut it. Even the recent shootout in Home Theater was very disappointed with the newest Sammy and Sony high-end offerings. the XBR8 is like $7500 bucks and if you move your head like one inch to the left or right the whole picture changes. What the fock is that?

Oh well... glad my Pio plasma is running well and will satisfy my needs for many years to come.

[CETA1]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

I Agree with these points. However, LCD is still a JOKE in one huge area: Off angle viewing. Unless you are single and never watch a TV with anyone then LCDs simply dont cut it. Even the recent shootout in Home Theater was very disappointed with the newest Sammy and Sony high-end offerings. the XBR8 is like $7500 bucks and if you move your head like one inch to the left or right the whole picture changes. What the fock is that?

Oh well... glad my Pio plasma is running well and will satisfy my needs for many years to come.

You are at least $2000 too high on your pricing for the XBR8. The viewing angles are better than most LCD's but not as good as Plasma of course.

I have never been a cheer leader of either technology. I just want to escape for a while during the weekend with a good blu-ray flick.

Not too much to ask really and the high end of either tech will give you that in spades.

I only had one Pioneer and it was and is a great set. I needed 55 inches this time and I am giving the XBR8 a whirl this time. Should be here in a couple of hours.

Pioneer was the cream. The XBR8 is pretty dang nice.

I think I am like many and this last set will tie me over until OLED comes. The XBR8 may not be perfect but I think it will be just fine until we step into the next era of technology. It is just a matter of time.

Go enjoy a blu-ray with either current technology.

Rick

[optivity]

Since Pioneer announced plans to terminate their display manufacturing operations this has compelled me to purchase an SC-07 receiver.



What closed the deal is Pioneer's ICEPower® Class-D Amplifier included w/the 'Elite' series receivers and my assumption that when these products are sold-out, Pioneer will cease to make any more 'Elite' class products.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally Posted by Yahwey

One can have a bigger and better PQ on a Panny 58" for $400 more than a 5020 Kuro out of the box.

I think most who know would disagree very much with this.

[HarrisonS]

Originally Posted by uni_panther

I doesn't really affect me other than being pretty surprised by it is all. I think it is the first sign of the death of Plasma. Sad to see a great technology go. As for me I picked up a Kuro 151 in late November and was thinking it would be the last "pure" Kuro but didn't realize it would be the last one period. My plan was to keep it for 5 to 7 years and wait to see how OLED came around. This is still my plan and hope. With Pioneer exiting the PDP business I guess the only way it affects me is next year I won't be envious of the new lineups because more than likely my display will still be the top display on the market. I wouldn't doubt it being the reference display for professional reviews for the next couple of years.

I believe that all the reports of the death of plasma "are greatly exaggerated"!

[creemail]

I love this poll, but I believe something will be better by next year. I know that many people are scrambling for a Kuro at this time, but its all about having patience!

Chris

[HarrisonS]

Originally Posted by optivity

Since Pioneer announced plans to terminate their display manufacturing operations this has compelled me to purchase an SC-07 receiver.

What closed the deal is Pioneer's ICEPower® Class-D Amplifier included w/the 'Elite' series receivers and my assumption that when these products are sold-out, Pioneer will cease to make any more 'Elite' class products.

A great consolation prize! Let us hope that Pioneer will continue its Elite line, even if only in the audio realm. And let us hope that "audio" includes AVR's!

[optivity]

Originally Posted by creemail

I love this poll, but I believe something will be better by next year.

I doubt it. Pioneer is going with the "cheap" mass-produced, south-of-the-border approach.

There will be no more 'Elite' series products coming out and the 2nd tier A/V manufacturers will not be filling this void anytime soon.

Coincidentally, Dell's Studio XPS platform, w/Core i7 processor, is an excellent buy right now. If anyone is interested, PM me for the price of this 64-bit 6 GB 1066 MHz PC w/Dell E-Value Code.

[optivity]

Originally Posted by HarrisonS

A great consolation prize! Let us hope that Pioneer will continue its Elite line, even if only in the audio realm. And let us hope that "audio" includes AVR's!

To be paired with a PRO-150FD.

Now I need speakers and WOW... are they expensive.

However, the speaker upgrade will have to wait awhile until the WAF "gets over" my latest purchase(s) (also bought a Dell XPS Studio i7 PC).

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally Posted by optivity

I doubt it. Pioneer is going with the "cheap" mass-produced, south-of-the-border approach.

There will be no more 'Elite' series products coming out and the 2nd tier A/V manufacturers will not be filling this void anytime soon.

Coincidentally, Dell's Studio XPS platform, w/Core i7 processor, is an excellent buy right now. If anyone is interested, PM me for the price of this 64-bit 6 GB 1066 MHz PC w/Dell E-Value Code.

Is that a stand alone?

[[Irishman]]

Originally Posted by Yahwey

The smartest thing in the world for Pioneer to do is to get out of the money losing plasma business.

Plasma is a dying and flawed technology, not much else can be done to improve it.

There's much more to PQ than the deepest black levels and ECC.

And Panasonic, LG and Samsung have all modernized Pioneer's panel designs with more efficiency.

One can have a bigger and better PQ on a Panny 58" for $400 more than a 5020 Kuro out of the box.

Granted, real videophiles appreciate the Elites, but also CRT RPs, some FPs/DLP-RPs, Panny 850 and THX models for much cheaper. The Pio 5020 is hardly a consideration but is the 2nd most expensive 50" '08 plasma out there.

And don't forget that LCD tech is 18 months away from making us all finally forget about plasma.

I say to Pioneer, kill the money pit - or the elitest image for non elite products, before it kills you.

*smells your cup of Kool-Aid*

What HAVE you spiked that with, sir?