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#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#15,981 ·
Is anyone running their front speakers full-range and using Audyssey for 2 channel music? If so, I was wondering what you thought of the results. I ask because the correction for bass frequencies - often the biggest problem - is more effective if you run your speakers small and crossover to your sub. However, I prefer to go full-range, no sub when I listen to music.


Thanks
 
#15,982 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/16744933


So, no, it is not possible to destroy speakers with it or anything else that we would ever develop at Audyssey.

I beg to differ.


I and many others have already brought to your attention an issue Audyssey has that causes it to boost frequencies below the capabilities of users speakers, yet you have continued to ignore this real problem and refuse to do anything to fix it.........the fault is within Audyssey's normalisation process and should be fixed within Audyssey.


Honestly a +10db boost down to DC is enough to cause anyone's speakers/subwoofer distress! Not to mention the loss of headroom at a given volume gain.


I know you have had difficulty replicating this in your test system, but surely looking at the code you can see this problem can occur within the normalisation process...........because it most certainly is for many users.


cheers
 
#15,983 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig /forum/post/16748490


kj - thanks for the investigative reporting
I never knew that about 7ch stereo, i always assumed it would maintain the same bass management as in any other surround mode.







This pedant stands by his statement that the degree of "boost" that dynamic eq is applying is related to the number on the volume dial only. :d


(chris correct me if i misspeak...) dynamic eq isn't actively monitoring the actual spl's in your room with any given content, it is monitoring the number on the volume dial, which it assumes is correctly calibrated to "loudness". For movie content, this works great, as the calibration of your volume dial will be correctly correlated with actual spl... But for other content, this is why we have to resort to various forms of source level tomfoolery to "trick" it into providing pleasing results with stuff that isn't mixed to the same reference standard, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by larrychanin /forum/post/16749226


hi,


thanks for the information.


I think this may provide the last piece in the puzzle regarding why james has a particular problem with his surround speakers while using dynamic eq and the 7 channel stereo listening mode.


Running dynamic eq with the 7 channel stereo listening mode produces a "triple whammy" on surround speakers. First, 7 channel stereo applies a lower crossover than the surrounds are designed for. Then it sends the surround speakers the same signal at the same level as the mains. Finally, thinking the level of a hot music mix is below standard reference, dynamic eq comes in and does two other things, 2) it boosts the overall levels of the surrounds relative to the mains, 3) it boosts the bass (and higher frequencies) while playing at a higher level.


This triple combination of higher surround levels with higher bass and a lower crossover setting results in stressing the surrounds.


Larry
Guys i edited my original post. The behavior i described was for my center speaker, not the surrounds. I did not increase the crossover in testing the surrounds enough to see this, although it could be there. I'll do further testing and report.


Sorry for wasting your time.
 
#15,984 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC /forum/post/16748179


Chris,


All this DYN EQ talk has got me thinking. My general listening levels for movies on my 3808 differs from True HD content(-3) to Master HD content(-8). If my volume settings are that much different to get the same perceived listening levels, how does that translate to what DYN EQ is doing to the recording? Will the Master HD recordings have a bigger boost from the DYN EQ?

Typically, these differences would be 4 dB (you see 5 --close enough) which is due to the fact that Dolby uses dialnorm and DTS does not. Thankfully, the receiver knows if dialnorm is engaged and tells Dynamic EQ.
 
#15,985 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myron_H /forum/post/16748681


What about receivers like the Onkyo 607, where the volume control is represented in positive numbers (0-80)?


How are we supposed to find the 75db SPL?

I believe Onkyo cleverly chose 63 as the reference master volume setting. I have to go back and check, but it's probably also listed in the manual somewhere...
 
#15,986 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/16750939


I believe Onkyo cleverly chose 63 as the reference master volume setting. I have to go back and check, but it's probably also listed in the manual somewhere...

In my Onyko TX-SR876, you can choose wheter to use Relative volume or Absolute volume display but not in the 607.
Absolute: Display range is “Min”, 0.5 through 99.5, “Max”.
Relative: Display range is –∞ dB, –81.5 dB through +18.0 dB.

The absolute value 82 is equivalent to the relative value 0 dB



Edit: hmmm, the 607 only has Absolute Min, 1 through 79 or Max as previously posted so 82 is obviously

not correct for that model. Maybe it is 63 like you thought or maybe 62.
 
#15,987 ·
A few months ago, I posted here concerning an upcoming visit by Jeff Meier (UMR) to calibrate my Kuro 151 display, and also take a look at my audio setup. A lot of responses were generated, mostly stating that adjusting the audio on my Denon 3808 using the manual EQ would never come close to the sophisticated processing Audyssey is capable of.


I didn't think it was possible, either; I've run many Audyssey calibrations over the past couple of years, and each turned out better than the previous one, especially after I read and followed the advice given in the Audyssey Setup Guide posted here.


I always been quite pleased with Audyssey's performance for TV viewing and movies, but I was disappointed with how it sounded with music. (My speakers include a Def Tech 5.1 setup, with subs built into the front towers (BP7000s, CLR2000 and BPX surrounds from 1995) and an SVS PB-13 Ultra. I also have an Anti-Mode connected between the 3808 and the Ultra.)


Jeff used his gear to flatten each speaker in my room using the 3808's 9-band manual EQ. He checked for phase problems, tested the Ultra with and without the Anti Mode inserted in the chain, adjusted the PEQ on the Ultra to boost the bottom octave somewhat, and level matched the whole system. He also recommended the 20Hz lift be activated on the Anti Mode. Speaker distances were left where Audyssey originally had set them.


Afterwards, it was quite easy to compare, since my most recent Audyssey calibration was still active. We listened to a variety of movie soundtracks and music; the difference, I would have to say, was not dramatic, but the manual setting was clearly better in several ways.


My bass is now flatter, deeper, and tighter than ever. Dialogue from the center channel is also much improved. With Audyssey, things sounded good, but everything just seems more focused now, and the system has more presence and detail.


An additional benefit is that things sound good from a variety of listening positions now, rather than just my listening area. Walking around the room, I can't find anyplace where the bass is boomy or overpowering, which was not the case before.


For music, I'm using the manual EQ with the 3808's stereo (plus sub) setting. This is where the biggest improvement lies; I'm enjoying my CD collection all over again.


I've still got more comparing to do, but having the Audyssey calibration and the manual setup both available is a plus; I can switch back and forth and evaluate different sources whenever I want; so far, though, I prefer the manual setting for everything I've tried.


I'm sure I'm opening the door for some critical responses here, but I'm very pleased so far with the results of the manual EQ setup.
 
#15,988 ·
And here is a refresher on what Audyssey says about Manual EQ -


"Manual EQ, on the other hand, is not a method for room correction. It is a series of parametric EQ filters that are used to adjust the content to your personal preference. Think of it as a fancier bass and treble control. The problem is that when you switch to Manual EQ, Audyssey MultEQ filters are turned off. So, you are not starting from a flat curve when you make these personal preference adjustments. Perhaps you can make some content sound good to you, but other content will not because it is at the mercy of the acoustics of the room."
 
#15,989 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J /forum/post/16751434


And here is a refresher on what Audyssey says about Manual EQ -


"Manual EQ, on the other hand, is not a method for room correction. It is a series of parametric EQ filters that are used to adjust the content to your personal preference. Think of it as a fancier bass and treble control. The problem is that when you switch to Manual EQ, Audyssey MultEQ filters are turned off. So, you are not starting from a flat curve when you make these personal preference adjustments. Perhaps you can make some content sound good to you, but other content will not because it is at the mercy of the acoustics of the room."

Yes, but isn't the goal to make these adjustments to end up with a flat curve, rather than start with one? Whatever method is used to EQ the system, getting as close to a flat curve as possible should improve the acoustics of the room, right?
 
#15,991 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike25690 /forum/post/16751529


Yes, but isn't the goal to make these adjustments to end up with a flat curve, rather than start with one?

Here is the much larger issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J /forum/post/16751434


Audyssey MultEQ filters are turned off.
 
#15,992 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin /forum/post/16749226


Hi,


Thanks for the information.


I think this may provide the last piece in the puzzle regarding why James has a particular problem with his surround speakers while using Dynamic EQ and the 7 Channel Stereo listening mode.


Running Dynamic EQ with the 7 Channel Stereo listening mode produces a "triple whammy" on surround speakers. First, 7 Channel Stereo applies a lower crossover than the surrounds are designed for. Then it sends the surround speakers the same signal at the same level as the mains. Finally, thinking the level of a hot music mix is below standard reference, Dynamic EQ comes in and does two other things, 2) it boosts the overall levels of the surrounds relative to the mains, 3) it boosts the bass (and higher frequencies) while playing at a higher level.


This triple combination of higher surround levels with higher bass and a lower crossover setting results in stressing the surrounds.


Larry
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 /forum/post/16750419


I beg to differ.


I and many others have already brought to your attention an issue Audyssey has that causes it to boost frequencies below the capabilities of users speakers, yet you have continued to ignore this real problem and refuse to do anything to fix it.........the fault is within Audyssey's normalisation process and should be fixed within Audyssey.


Honestly a +10db boost down to DC is enough to cause anyone's speakers/subwoofer distress! Not to mention the loss of headroom at a given volume gain.


I know you have had difficulty replicating this in your test system, but surely looking at the code you can see this problem can occur within the normalisation process...........because it most certainly is for many users.


cheers



Wow, a guy takes off for a few hours and look what develops!



Here's where I think I've come with this:


First, I think I overestimated what these Audyssey processes are capable of. This of course is not to say they are not truly sophisticated, mostly easy-to-use technologies that can provide big-time real world benefits, but, you cannot just "push play" and expect Audyssey to play ball for an entire season without a bit of a break (adjustment) here and there.


I feel my example is a rather fine one in that regard. Here's how:


I ran MultiEQ. I figured this clever bugger "knew" my arrangement pretty much dead-nuts: it knew my surrounds were on the small side, seeing it labelled them "small" and set the c-overs at a relatively high (but appropriate, IMO) point. It knew I had LARGE fronts and a LARGE center. Until DYN EQ came along, everything worked beautifully...and I mean BEAUTIFULLY. Great balance, dynamics, extension. Side and back surrounds ran problem free, at any volume, in any mode, including 7 channel stereo.


No matter what I played: music, movies, TV- hell, I even ran a balls-out fireworks display through blu-ray on it. My 7.1 sys played flawlessly, bass response was great- no single speaker in the sys ever sounded stressed to my ears, regardless of the vol level/setting what have you.


Then, along came DYN EQ. And generally, I was issue-free, although it had been awhile since I had put my system through its paces, so to speak.


OK, now along comes this song (and some posts on AVS) which screwed up the whole damn thing
.


Now, I'm "forced" to believe/accept that because this song is "hotter" (which I'm still not convinced it is BTW, as it sounds VERY close in level to multiple songs that I consider "normal") it's causing all of these issues at vol levels substantially lower than where I listen to movies.


Friends: the key word here is SUBSTANTIALLY. I realize that, (for the sake of argument) if indeed this track is hotter than the standardized, ideal, movie soundtracks, that it could encounter problems at identical/lower levels with DYN EQ for obvious reasons. Again, the problem though is, I think that my surrounds would STILL encounter problems with this song EVEN if it was mastered identically at the same levels as your standard movie, if DYN EQ was engaged. I cannot be more clear than that, I'm afraid.


Believe me, I wish I still didn't believe this, but I do. When I went home yesterday and turned DYN EQ OFF, I played it through 7 channel stereo at brain-busting volume with no ill-effects that I could discern. IMO, these levels were at LEAST 20db's higher than the levels the surrounds encounter problems when DYN EQ is enaged. At least 20 db's higher. For those with Denon 3808's the song causes my surrounds to "bottom out" at -14 with DYN EQ ON...with it OFF, I went to +6 with zero issues (besides those unrelated to my equip
). There, for those concerned with the volume dial, there you go. A cosmic difference.


Now, if particular CD's are really THAT much louder than a standard movie, I guess I am patently wrong and this is a dead issue. However, I just don't believe it in this case- maybe for others, but not in this case.


Y-day, I listened to at least 2 dozen songs from 2 dozen artists from multiple genres. Interestingly enough, I found a few that actually sounded "louder" than this one. The one in question here actually sounded very close to the remaining 20 or so.


Now, I ask you, could all 20 of those songs be 10, 15, or even 20 db's hot in comparison to a movie soundtrack? Sorry, but my brain just refuses to allow for that assumption. What my brain tells me is that even though this is a newer rap-song (I mention it being new and rap because both our current times and this genre are oft-accused of being lead agents of the "compression wars", where song volumes continue to escalate), it is nowhere near being 10 or 20 db's louder than a movie.


Earlier, I asked if a simple comparison could be set-up, by playing both at identical vol settings (and others if need be) and comparing their SPL's. No one responded, so I'm assuming such a comparo is flawed?


I for one would be interested in discovering the results.


Alright, sorry for the length. This was almost certainly the longest post in my AVS "career".


In the end, I guess what I feel is that somewhere there is a hiccup in this process. I believe the surrounds in my sys are getting bumped up beyond their capacity by DYN EQ. I currently do NOT believe this is because a particular song is significantly "hotter" than a typical movie score.


I believe it is because my surrounds are likely near their "edge" (an edge I think Audyssey should "know", BTW- one of my unfair expectations
) and DYN EQ simply pushes them over at a moderately high volume. This is prolly where I thought MultiEQ and DYN EQ would "play along"- meaning, regardless of the level of the source material, they would "know" it was louder than the standard and adjust accordingly. I know now that of course that this is an unrealistic expectation. That said however, it still doesn't do much for my problem, since I believe this song is fairly close to this standard, and I'm having problems well-below levels where I've watched many a film.


Mind you, even this belief is unsettling for me, as I can raise the volume dial seemingly without limit and never encounter prob's in 7 channel without DYN EQ (so how close am I really to the "edge" without DYN EQ?).


I'm sorry if my current inclinations upset some here. If it makes anyone feel better, think me a dolt. But, I can say I have (and will continue to) read with great interest what others here have to say, and I look forward to using everything Audyssey has to offer outside of DYN EQ (for the moment, at least). Making input level adjustments seems a bit silly to me, as we've already discussed how music is all over the place, and while I'm sure it would be fine with some of it, other material wouldn't pan out as well.


Respectfully,


James
 
#15,993 ·
mastermaybe,


Do your surrounds play louder than your fronts when listening in 7-channel stereo? Probably easier to tell at lower levels.


Since Audyssey is boosting the surround level when listening below reference, when using 7-channel stereo I'd think that would be the case. And if so, it would seem manufacturers should disable Audyssey in this mode.


The combination of a hot track and boosted surround level would then be your problem.
 
#15,994 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike25690 /forum/post/16751410


A few months ago, I posted here concerning an upcoming visit by Jeff Meier (UMR) to calibrate my Kuro 151 display, and also take a look at my audio setup. A lot of responses were generated, mostly stating that adjusting the audio on my Denon 3808 using the manual EQ would never come close to the sophisticated processing Audyssey is capable of.


I didn't think it was possible, either; I've run many Audyssey calibrations over the past couple of years, and each turned out better than the previous one, especially after I read and followed the advice given in the Audyssey Setup Guide posted here.


I always been quite pleased with Audyssey's performance for TV viewing and movies, but I was disappointed with how it sounded with music. (My speakers include a Def Tech 5.1 setup, with subs built into the front towers (BP7000s, CLR2000 and BPX surrounds from 1995) and an SVS PB-13 Ultra. I also have an Anti-Mode connected between the 3808 and the Ultra.)


Jeff used his gear to flatten each speaker in my room using the 3808's 9-band manual EQ. He checked for phase problems, tested the Ultra with and without the Anti Mode inserted in the chain, adjusted the PEQ on the Ultra to boost the bottom octave somewhat, and level matched the whole system. He also recommended the 20Hz lift be activated on the Anti Mode. Speaker distances were left where Audyssey originally had set them.


Afterwards, it was quite easy to compare, since my most recent Audyssey calibration was still active. We listened to a variety of movie soundtracks and music; the difference, I would have to say, was not dramatic, but the manual setting was clearly better in several ways.


My bass is now flatter, deeper, and tighter than ever. Dialogue from the center channel is also much improved. With Audyssey, things sounded good, but everything just seems more focused now, and the system has more presence and detail.


An additional benefit is that things sound good from a variety of listening positions now, rather than just my listening area. Walking around the room, I can't find anyplace where the bass is boomy or overpowering, which was not the case before.


For music, I'm using the manual EQ with the 3808's stereo (plus sub) setting. This is where the biggest improvement lies; I'm enjoying my CD collection all over again.


I've still got more comparing to do, but having the Audyssey calibration and the manual setup both available is a plus; I can switch back and forth and evaluate different sources whenever I want; so far, though, I prefer the manual setting for everything I've tried.


I'm sure I'm opening the door for some critical responses here, but I'm very pleased so far with the results of the manual EQ setup.

1. We're glad that you are happy with your system.

2. Jeff Meier seems very good at getting glowing testimonials for his manual calibrations posted here on the Audyssey thread.

3. None of us are going to call Jeff to manually adjust our gear.
 
#15,995 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy /forum/post/16751874


mastermaybe,


Do your surrounds play louder than your fronts when listening in 7-channel stereo? Probably easier to tell at lower levels.


Since Audyssey is boosting the surround level when listening below reference, when using 7-channel stereo I'd think that would be the case. And if so, it would seem manufacturers should disable Audyssey in this mode.


The combination of a hot track and boosted surround level would then be your problem.

Good question, but I'd lean towards no. They acutally sound very comparable in level- especially in the middle of the room.


I was wondering that myself and checked it out.


thanks,

James
 
#15,996 ·
If you want to look into this, you could google loudness wars. Heck, I'll even give you a pretty decent youtube comparison of old school music versus loudness war levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ


Check it out. The "loud" is way louder than the 1989 release of the same music. I don't see a scale, but I'm guessing that the average loudness is indeed well over 10 dB louder . . .


Believe what you want to believe. But if you''re listening to CDs mastered in the last decade or so, and they're not jazz or classical, they're likely loudness "enhanced" so that, as on the youtube video, when the drummer hits his snare really hard, it can't be any louder than what's already going on, because there's no "louder' left in the digital realm. Whether you consider them quiet or loud, they're mastered loud.


There may also be oddities that occur in EQing music that has been compressed in the modern manner, with multiband compression, etc. And remember that your amp and speakers react linearly (twice is much power is twice as much power, twice as much excursion). But twice as much power is a 3 dB increase, which is generally in the "I turned it up one notch" range for most people. So once we get our speakers or amps to the edge of their linear capacity, they fall over the edge in a big hurry (faster than our ears tell us they should).
 
#15,997 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike25690 /forum/post/16751529


Yes, but isn't the goal to make these adjustments to end up with a flat curve, rather than start with one? Whatever method is used to EQ the system, getting as close to a flat curve as possible should improve the acoustics of the room, right?

Mebbe. The goal is to get a flat curve and to make the time decay at all frequencies independent of room modes. What tools do you have for doing that?
 
#15,998 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz /forum/post/16752075


If you want to look into this, you could google loudness wars. Heck, I'll even give you a pretty decent youtube comparison of old school music versus loudness war levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ


Check it out. The "loud" is way louder than the 1989 release of the same music. I don't see a scale, but I'm guessing that the average loudness is indeed well over 10 dB louder . . .


Believe what you want to believe. But if you''re listening to CDs mastered in the last decade or so, and they're not jazz or classical, they're likely loudness "enhanced" so that, as on the youtube video, when the drummer hits his snare really hard, it can't be any louder than what's already going on, because there's no "louder' left in the digital realm. Whether you consider them quiet or loud, they're mastered loud.


There may also be oddities that occur in EQing music that has been compressed in the modern manner, with multiband compression, etc. And remember that your amp and speakers react linearly (twice is much power is twice as much power, twice as much excursion). But twice as much power is a 3 dB increase, which is generally in the "I turned it up one notch" range for most people. So once we get our speakers or amps to the edge of their linear capacity, they fall over the edge in a big hurry (faster than our ears tell us they should).


Thanks, I'm well aware of the loudness wars. And I listened to quite a bit material well-over a decade-old including: the police (orginal recordings), the beatles, billy joel, the stones, who, etc. Really, I was surprised at how similar they were more than anything else. Even a decent amount of then more modern recordings I happened to select were reasonable. Admittedly, most of what I listen to is probably less prone to sonic bolstering than some other's collections.


This is of course not to say many others do not violate. Two of my favorite bands of the last 15 years are some of the biggest offenders: Oasis and RH Chili Peppers.


What I think is that I'll eventually come across a passage in a BD that will replicate what is going on in this rap song with DYN EQ and we'll have to find a new point to argue, as now this will be occuring in a "standardized" movie. My guess is people will then contend that movies are not standardized either. sigh.


The truth is though, there isn't a heck of a lotta info back there (surrounds) to begin with in traditional suround modes (in most movies anyway), and what is there certainly isn't the type of material that compares with a rap song being "re-stereoed".


James
 
#15,999 ·
Hopefully you won't be able to replicate the situation with a movie, because of the standardized reference level. Even with EQ, nothing should ever be louder than reference, when you're applying dynamic EQ to a movie, so if your system can handle reference volume you're in the clear. It's music that has a high average vloume so that the reference level would be more like -40 db raghter than-20 dB that creates the problem. Dynamic EQ is trying to restore the balance to a level where it never really existed because it thinks 0 dBfS means a specific level. BUt music is mastered with 0 db FS being much lower, so that you don't utterly destroy your ears in the process - - you've tested that out by playing music at reference or near reference volume - - it's uncomfortable, unpleasantly loud.


And just because I'm hyper about this stuff, if we listen to recent reissues of Beatles music, it's mastered to modern levels (or nearly so) and is much louder than the originals. I know from fooling with my own stuff that 10 dB of compression often sounds very transparent and good, but it's still twice as loud (once I put on the make up gain) as the uncompressed sound.
 
#16,000 ·
I guess the easiest way to put this to rest would be to take an LP (or anything for that matter) containing significant extension, that is also known to be mastered at this standard, and play it with and without DYN EQ at high-levels while observing/comparing/contrasting the results.


no?


James
 
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