How come I don't see that many posts on Runco projectors?

Vancomycin · 11-04-09, 07:58 PM

I have talked to some home theater builder and they have mostly recommend Runco projectors.

So I tried to come here and do a "search" and Runco projectors and I hardly see any useful topics on Runco projectors.

Are they not discussed much because of its high price or performance? (good or bad).

Some of the topics that I see state that the Runco projector is noisy and often need a box to enclose it.
Other than that, not much else.

scottyb · 11-04-09, 09:00 PM

They are more of a custom install and not a good value?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=14095890

GeorgeAB · 11-04-09, 09:34 PM

Runco displays are only available from exclusive dealers when new. Runco dealers are typically high-end custom systems designers and installation companies. Their clients are not usually hobbyists and rely on their dealer to specify the correct display for their systems. This type of client doesn't care to deal with all the gory details of display performance and just wants a capable professional to deliver a system that looks and sounds good, with ease of use and reliability.

Most of the traffic I've seen in the forums over the years comes from hobbyists and DIYs who pay more personal attention to performance details when shopping for and implementing their equipment. I suspect these characteristics are largely at the root of the issue. Most of my custom installation clients don't devote time to AV technology forums.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Richard Tywoniak · 11-05-09, 01:19 AM

I am starting to see more posts on the Runco LED projector. I suspect that this is because it is the first time they have introduced a projector that was in the realm of realistic prices. Most times they are way out of line on prices. I also am not sure that you can use the old addage - you get what you pay for either

Vancomycin · 11-05-09, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyb

They are more of a custom install and not a good value?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=14095890

That link is not working

Jason Turk · 11-05-09, 10:00 AM

Runco has always been "high end" (meaning sold through CI's with 99% of them requiring installation). But, for that you pay a premium (like anything high end). Because of that, they are often ignored by forums, such as this, since many of the people here are looking for max performance/price. In addition, many here find that they can get better for less money as well (a lot of personal opinions there).

Part of the reason Runco is so pushed at local CI's is they are protected...it's not easy to find them elsewhere for a lesser price, unlike much of the other stuff out there. That is good for the dealers, but potentially bad for the end user.

Dark Rider · 11-05-09, 12:03 PM

One thing to note is that the historical Runco perception may be changing now that they have disolved the Planar lineup and are rebadging those projectors as Runco models... at least as long as the prices stay in-line with what they were selling for as Planar models.

Dan P. · 11-05-09, 12:12 PM

The people who can afford that kind of stuff are brain surgeons, executives, rich people, etc. They don't read AVS forum. They go to a dealer (or send their valet), say they want a theater in their 30,000 sq ft home, and they don't care how much it costs since it just goes on the AMEX black card along with the last sports car they bought.

mhdiab · 11-05-09, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan P.

The people who can afford that kind of stuff are brain surgeons, executives, rich people, etc. They don't read AVS forum. They go to a dealer (or send their valet), say they want a theater in their 30,000 sq ft home, and they don't care how much it costs since it just goes on the AMEX black card along with the last sports car they bought.

You know there is a $20K+ forum here right? There are plenty of people on this forum that has spent a lot (and I mean a lot) of money on the system so that alone is not a reason.

Lots of people on here will spend an extra $5-10K to get a small improvement in the picture and they will change out that PJ the very next year for something better and greater....

I think the reason is what George states below -- they are typically sold through installers. It isn't so much that people that go to installers have a lot of money (since people with lots of money can also have an interest in this and end up on AVS). It is more that people that elect to go to installers are less inclined to being on a forum........ yes I realize there are exceptions.

Just met a friend of ours who was having his HT built. I asked him what PJ, screen etc -- he had no clue. He did remember that the installer has some special brand of speakers that you need to be authorized for and that was it.............. no comments

Daniel Hutnicki · 11-05-09, 01:57 PM

This website is typically frequented by DIYers of all types. As the Runco line is almost exclusively sold and installed by Custom installers, its not a projector that would be seen as something as DIYer could use. Although this forum was on the forefront of using anamorphic lenses (i should know as I bought the original Panamorph one year before it even was delivered) Runco was the first or one of the first major manufacturers to use anamorphic lenses with their projectors, so in their own way they belong in the family of DIYers

elmalloc · 11-06-09, 09:41 AM

One of my local dealers stinks, I walked in and asked to see some projectors (because I hadn't seen one before). He showed me a runco DLP, 100" screen. He showed star wars (non-HD). I asked him if he could close the door to the room, he said it didn't matter (there was a lot of light coming in, in the otherwise dark room).

I knew nothing about projectors at the time but I could tell that was kidna stupid to show a prospective customer a non-HD video (although he may have saw I'm a geek, but then he should know better) and in non-ideal conditions.

I remember leaving that room saying wow projectors suck, 10K for that?

-ELmO

Anthony A. · 11-06-09, 11:40 AM

its unfortunate that far too many install companies (aka dealers) dont give the time of day to people visiting their store. once you bring out your checkbook, they're suddenly your best friend. ticks me off but what are you gonna do. many of them have clients that know zero about home theater, walk in and say give me a theater for 100 grand. they then give them a theater that totally sucks (imo) for that amount and think they're awesome custom installers. there are a few in my area like this that expect the client to not have a say in what thet recommend. all they need from you is the checkbook. im glad im a diy kind of guy who walk right past these business models.

chadly25 · 11-06-09, 12:26 PM

Where are these guys that just come in with $100,000 checks to burn, I'd love to meet one

There are a few bad seeds in every profession, even the one you're in I'm sure. Don't let a bad experience or two give you an unrealistic vision of how the whole industry is and how they treat their clients. Our company wouldn't have been in business for over 20 years now if this was the way we conducted business.

mhdiab · 11-06-09, 03:14 PM

You got to remember that $100K / $50K / $25K or whatever to a customer installer won't give you the same dollar value as if you bought everything yourself and was an expert at setting up everything.

First part is purely spent on labor which isn't cheap. Second Part of the money is spent on them having the expertise and setting things up properly. Can you do better for the money if you do it yourself - probably. Is it a lot more work - definately.

The ones that does this for a living have to say what % of the money is for their work compared to the electronics, but obviously it is a decent amount so they can stay in business.

Otto J · 11-07-09, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhdiab

First part is purely spent on labor which isn't cheap. Second Part of the money is spent on them having the expertise and setting things up properly. Can you do better for the money if you do it yourself - probably. Is it a lot more work - definately.

People that have no clue how to set up or evaluate an AV system (and that includes some people that consider themselves enthusiasts, I might add...), will most likely NOT do better for the money themselves. Part of my business is calibrating setups that people have done themselves, and just buys my services to "fine-tune" it all in the end. A _lot_ of people are stunned at what level of improvement is attainable, however, very often I find myself in a situation where I feel sorry for the customer that he, out of lack of knowledge or from bad counselling (either in-store or in forums), simply bought the wrong equipment. Sometimes people have bought some stuff that are generally highly regarded, but just a bad choice in the specific setup. It's not rare that I leave a customer who is happy with my services because I introduced a noticable improvement, but I feel that if the customer only had chosen other gear, it would have calibrated much better, and provided a much better end result.

IF, and only IF, the CI is capable enough to choose the right equipment for the job and install and calibrate it properly, 20-30% extra on the price tag may be very well spent, compared to the risk of making the wrong purchase. Of course, if the CI isn't capable, you end up paying extra for nothing.

For instance, I've seen 4000 dollar flatscreen tv's, where I would swear that the customer would have gotten a better picture with the best TV I could find at 1000 dollars, plus calibration. So, what would be the better deal: A super special just-for-you price of 3000 dollars on the expensive model, or paying 1600 dollars for something that could have been had for 1000 on the web? If you didn't know what to buy in the first place, a low price doesn't help you.

Kelvin1965S · 11-07-09, 06:23 AM

I'm not rich enough to have a CI come and put in a home theater for me (in fact I haven't even got a spare room for one, so they wouldn't probably bother with me anyway

). But I do appreciate what they can do to help (albeit for a price): I've spent four or five years reading everything I can on here and elsewhere, I've bought various pieces of equipment and gradually upgraded (sometimes making mistakes/sideways moves) to get a system that I feel is really good in my environment.

I appreciate that if I'd had the money, this long learing curve which included calibration and learning about Anamorphic lenses and setting up a video proccesor, would have been far less painful with a CI to do it all for me. I do however appreciate that while I may not have a 'top of the range' setup, I've really maximised what I do have by taking a lot of time to set it up and upgrade it to optimise it for my requirements, much like a good CI would do (It's just taken a loooooong time

).

I was interested in Otto's comment about the cheaper TV being better setup as in some ways it applies to me: My HD350 is setup in a very long throw with an ISCO II lens (secondhand I might add) and a 1.5 gain screen. In this configuration I'm getting close to maximum CR due to long throw and the iris stopped down (I learnt how to adjust it in smaller steps using the service menu), so I may be getting as much CR as some HD750 owners in a short throw low gain screen setup with their iris opened up for example. If only a cheap external CMS was available to perfect the colours, though at least the HDQ does a passable job for now.

Back to the original question though, I wouldn't expect much mention of Runco products on this section due to price. I'd expect to read about them in the $20,000 plus section though if I was really interested (or perhaps found a secondhand one and wanted to read up for example).

Chris Dallas · 11-07-09, 10:21 AM

I love forums like this and especially this one, been here many many years.

I have never used a CI and probably never will. Money is not the issue at all, I just hate when they lie and try to take advantage of consumers and believe me there are plenty of those around.

As for Runco I personally would never buy one for the same reasons stated above. They use to rebadge BenQ projectors and charge the consumer double if not more than what the exact same unit would cost from BenQ even if it was slightly different it was still not worth the difference imo. So who really knows what else they did to the rest of their line.

One would argue why I would pay $650,000 for an Enzo in 2003 when I could get a Viper with the same horsepower as the Enzo for a lot less. Well, that same Viper in 2003 that was say $100K at the time is probably now worth $40K and the Enzo is worth $1.4 million. The BenQ or the Runco have and will never appreciate in value after that initial purchase yet Runco overcharged their customers for that exact same product they could have bought from BenQ.

People remember things, they cannot forget what happened in the past so for that reason imo Runco does not get any attention, there are just not enough users with Runco projectors out there like there used to be.

Gordon McGlade · 11-07-09, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Dallas

As for Runco I personally would never buy one for the same reasons stated above. They use to rebadge BenQ projectors and charge the consumer double if not more than what the exact same unit would cost from BenQ even if it was slightly different it was still not worth the difference imo. So who really knows what else they did to the rest of their line.

..... yet Runco overcharged their customers for that exact same product they could have bought from BenQ.

People remember things, they cannot forget what happened in the past so for that reason imo Runco does not get any attention, there are just not enough users with Runco projectors out there like there used to be.

What a load rubbish and quite frankly you are spouting information you know absolutely nothing about!

Let me correct you, and beleive me I know the details.

Runco use different OEM companies, as do every single other manufacturer of DLP projector without exception. Benq Qalso use one, it just so happens they own that manufacturer. Runco has long been producing Home Cinema projectors before Benq Q jumped on the bandwagon, utlizing the Runco specified product but with vastly inferior, and of course cheaper, optics. They did use the Runco designed video processor nor the Runco designed software.

Runco also use other OEM companies, as do many other manufacturers. The most important and largest is DELTA. They manufacture for SIM2, DPI, Christie, Projection Design, InFocus, Optoma and list goes on. They manufacture based on the customer specification, they do not manufacture all these prodcuts to the same specification.

In fact, DELTA is Texas Instruments prefered OEM company regarding DLP technology and ALL manufacturers must source the initial supply of many new DLP engines from DELTA, thre is no choice on that.

So a Runco is not a Benq Q, nor an InFocus, nor a Digital Projection, nor a SIM2 even if they come out of the same OEM in the Far East.

Runco specification differs from that of another brand and it has always been that way.

I know personally some of the Runco engineers, both from the past and the present Planar team, and they top class engineers in their field and as a company, nothing could ever compare to the service Runco offered. That is fact.

So before you spout out such rubbish again, check your facts and and get your argument right first, it is much less embarrassing!

Gordon

Chris Dallas · 11-07-09, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon McGlade

So before you spout out such rubbish again, check your facts and and get your argument right first, it is much less embarrassing!

Gordon

Sour grapes? My facts are right, and who is arguing? Go back a few years on this forum and read for yourself from many end users.

JimmyR · 11-07-09, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Dallas

Sour grapes? My facts are right, and who is arguing? Go back a few years on this forum and read for yourself from many end users.

Foot in mouth disease has flared up again Chris

.

More than not those "end users" you are using as your vindicating proof were and are habitually misinformed themselves. Anyway, bashing Runco I'm sure will unjustifiably continue on this forum forever.

mhdiab · 11-08-09, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto J

People that have no clue how to set up or evaluate an AV system (and that includes some people that consider themselves enthusiasts, I might add...), will most likely NOT do better for the money themselves. .

I agree with what you said, but if you read the first part of my post (instead of just quoting something in the middle you would have seen that I said:

won't give you the same dollar value as if you bought everything yourself and was an EXPERT at setting up everything.

I fully understand why custom installers are there and my whole point was that you can't look at the cost of a PJ that is installed and say hey I can buy that for X dollars less so it is a rip-off. A good custom installer will take the room into considerations, do the whole setup integration etc etc etc and a lot of their customers have no clue or interest about that stuff.

I fully understand the value of custom installers - I don't want it for me, but know people that definately needed it.....

Gordon McGlade · 11-08-09, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Dallas

Sour grapes? My facts are right, and who is arguing? Go back a few years on this forum and read for yourself from many end users.

Your facts are 100% wrong, as I have tried to explain to you. Read the facts again!

You and many like you love to have a go at Runco but your arguments ( NOT arguing ) are based on unconfirmed rumors and in many cases downright lies which mis-inform others who unfortunately red this rubbish.

I have been on and aroung this Forum for many years and it still goes on however there seems to be less of it now Runco is owned by Planar, who are undisputedly a video engineering compnay.

However, for those others reading this thread, pay attention to the OEM producers role and thier relationship with Texas Instruments. ALL the Home Cine manufacturers use one of the OEM companies for product supply, based on their own specifications and that includes SIM2.

The fact that NONE of the manufacturers mention this is neither here nor there. Sub-contract manufacturing dominates almost everything we consume now.

Who manufactures the Apple computers, DELL, HP etc....? An OEM company in the Far East and even US companies with manufactruing plants in the Far East. Very few products are manufactured in the West now because YOU the publoc want thing cheaper and cheaper.

What next? A GM or a FORD motorcar made in Taiwan? Where would that leave the US carworkers? That is the way thing have gone unfortunately!

So if you are going criticise Runco or any other manufacturer make sure you are singing from the right hymn sheet

Gordon

chadly25 · 11-08-09, 07:50 AM

Don't worry about Chris. I'm not even sure if he believes what he said. His comment just presented another opportunity for him to mention that he owns a very expensive car in his WAY off analogy. The signature is enough Chris, we get it. Congrats!

HogPilot · 11-08-09, 08:28 AM

Chris is talking about the Runco CL-710, which was a re-badged BenQ 8700. If you do a search on AVS for "CL-710" you'll find it discussed in several threads. The MSRP was $2K higher, but rumor was that the CL-710 had different firmware that offered several refinements over the 8700.

I've only had a chance to see a Runco in action once, and it was back on 2006 at a local HT CI shop. Contrary to some of the stories here, the salesman we talked to was very friendly and was more than happy to take us into their "high-end" room and do some demos for us. I was actually quite impressed with the image the Runco threw, although at the time my only reference for a projector was my InFocus SP5000 and my buddy's Toshiba MT-700.

The question is, for the price that you pay for the Runco can you get more "value" depending on your level of knowledge and the price/performance ratio of other brands. For those who don't have the time or the know-how to do things on their own, Runco's customer service and solid network of CIs may be well worth the money.

bgosselin · 11-08-09, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Dallas

One would argue why I would pay $650,000 for an Enzo in 2003 when I could get a Viper with the same horsepower as the Enzo for a lot less. Well, that same Viper in 2003 that was say $100K at the time is probably now worth $40K and the Enzo is worth $1.4 million. The BenQ or the Runco have and will never appreciate in value after that initial purchase yet Runco overcharged their customers for that exact same product they could have bought from BenQ.

People remember things, they cannot forget what happened in the past so for that reason imo Runco does not get any attention, there are just not enough users with Runco projectors out there like there used to be.

The Enzo example is very bad. It's a collector item. No projector would ever be a collector item.

In fact you should compare your 599 and a corvette Z01. In this example your 599GTB would be a Runco. You could have buy a corvette for less than the 599 and get a better performance. But you chose to buy the most expensive model even if it's performance is less or equal to a less expensive car.

Some people buy Runco's for the right of ownership. Most rich people I talk to that don't care about home theater will only tell me they have a Runco projector. They don't know about the performance. But they know it's expensive so it must be good.

For Runco's defense it the higher end they have very bright 3 chip that can lit a huge screen easily. Something you can't get at Benq.

rlsmith · 11-08-09, 09:47 PM

If you buy a Runco, you will get a very high quality product. It is certainly a diminishing returns situation (you spend a lot more to get a relatively small improvement).

I don't think it is fair to suggest that Runco is a rip-off or just for a sense of prestige. Their products are good, period, and you can rely on their commitments to their customers.

[I am absolutely a DIY type myself and always look for a real bargain so I am not a Runco customer but I do respect the company.]

11-04-09, 07:58 PM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
Vancomycin Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 241	How come I don't see that many posts on Runco projectors? I have talked to some home theater builder and they have mostly recommend Runco projectors. So I tried to come here and do a "search" and Runco projectors and I hardly see any useful topics on Runco projectors. Are they not discussed much because of its high price or performance? (good or bad). Some of the topics that I see state that the Runco projector is noisy and often need a box to enclose it. Other than that, not much else.

11-04-09, 09:00 PM	#2 \| Link
scottyb AVS Special Member AVS CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: mound,mn,usa Posts: 3,292 Classified Rating: 100% (4)	They are more of a custom install and not a good value? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=14095890 __________________ I love being married. It's so great to find that one special person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.

11-05-09, 10:00 AM	#6 \| Link
Jason Turk AVS Sales AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Rochester, NY USA Posts: 10,304 Classified Rating: 100% (2)	Runco has always been "high end" (meaning sold through CI's with 99% of them requiring installation). But, for that you pay a premium (like anything high end). Because of that, they are often ignored by forums, such as this, since many of the people here are looking for max performance/price. In addition, many here find that they can get better for less money as well (a lot of personal opinions there). Part of the reason Runco is so pushed at local CI's is they are protected...it's not easy to find them elsewhere for a lesser price, unlike much of the other stuff out there. That is good for the dealers, but potentially bad for the end user. __________________ Jason C. Turk Sales, Installations and ISF Calibrations 585-671-2968 jason@avscience.com NOTE: I work for A/V Science, AVSForum.

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Daniel Hutnicki Sales Join Date: May 2000 Location: On the Internet Posts: 5,543 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	This website is typically frequented by DIYers of all types. As the Runco line is almost exclusively sold and installed by Custom installers, its not a projector that would be seen as something as DIYer could use. Although this forum was on the forefront of using anamorphic lenses (i should know as I bought the original Panamorph one year before it even was delivered) Runco was the first or one of the first major manufacturers to use anamorphic lenses with their projectors, so in their own way they belong in the family of DIYers __________________ Daniel Hutnicki Sales A/V Science, Inc. 585-454-1460 x107 daniel@avscience.com

11-06-09, 09:41 AM	#11 \| Link
elmalloc Eternal Sonata Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brunswick, OH Posts: 2,837	One of my local dealers stinks, I walked in and asked to see some projectors (because I hadn't seen one before). He showed me a runco DLP, 100" screen. He showed star wars (non-HD). I asked him if he could close the door to the room, he said it didn't matter (there was a lot of light coming in, in the otherwise dark room). I knew nothing about projectors at the time but I could tell that was kidna stupid to show a prospective customer a non-HD video (although he may have saw I'm a geek, but then he should know better) and in non-ideal conditions. I remember leaving that room saying wow projectors suck, 10K for that? -ELmO __________________ Theater construction.

11-04-09, 09:34 PM	#3 \| Link
GeorgeAB Manufacturer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,172	Runco displays are only available from exclusive dealers when new. Runco dealers are typically high-end custom systems designers and installation companies. Their clients are not usually hobbyists and rely on their dealer to specify the correct display for their systems. This type of client doesn't care to deal with all the gory details of display performance and just wants a capable professional to deliver a system that looks and sounds good, with ease of use and reliability. Most of the traffic I've seen in the forums over the years comes from hobbyists and DIYs who pay more personal attention to performance details when shopping for and implementing their equipment. I suspect these characteristics are largely at the root of the issue. Most of my custom installation clients don't devote time to AV technology forums. Best regards and beautiful pictures, G. Alan Brown, President CinemaQuest, Inc. A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate "Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

11-05-09, 01:19 AM	#4 \| Link
Richard Tywoniak Advanced Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 619	I am starting to see more posts on the Runco LED projector. I suspect that this is because it is the first time they have introduced a projector that was in the realm of realistic prices. Most times they are way out of line on prices. I also am not sure that you can use the old addage - you get what you pay for either

11-05-09, 12:03 PM	#7 \| Link
Dark Rider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Alpharetta, GA Posts: 272	One thing to note is that the historical Runco perception may be changing now that they have disolved the Planar lineup and are rebadging those projectors as Runco models... at least as long as the prices stay in-line with what they were selling for as Planar models.

11-05-09, 12:12 PM	#8 \| Link
Dan P. Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 298	The people who can afford that kind of stuff are brain surgeons, executives, rich people, etc. They don't read AVS forum. They go to a dealer (or send their valet), say they want a theater in their 30,000 sq ft home, and they don't care how much it costs since it just goes on the AMEX black card along with the last sports car they bought.

11-06-09, 11:40 AM	#12 \| Link
Anthony A. AVS Special Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,482	its unfortunate that far too many install companies (aka dealers) dont give the time of day to people visiting their store. once you bring out your checkbook, they're suddenly your best friend. ticks me off but what are you gonna do. many of them have clients that know zero about home theater, walk in and say give me a theater for 100 grand. they then give them a theater that totally sucks (imo) for that amount and think they're awesome custom installers. there are a few in my area like this that expect the client to not have a say in what thet recommend. all they need from you is the checkbook. im glad im a diy kind of guy who walk right past these business models. __________________ Dedicated Theater Construction Thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1164966 Home Automation Construction Thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1184610

11-06-09, 12:26 PM	#13 \| Link
chadly25 Membership Revoked Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,084	Where are these guys that just come in with $100,000 checks to burn, I'd love to meet one There are a few bad seeds in every profession, even the one you're in I'm sure. Don't let a bad experience or two give you an unrealistic vision of how the whole industry is and how they treat their clients. Our company wouldn't have been in business for over 20 years now if this was the way we conducted business.

11-06-09, 03:14 PM	#14 \| Link
mhdiab AVS Special Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 1,514	You got to remember that $100K / $50K / $25K or whatever to a customer installer won't give you the same dollar value as if you bought everything yourself and was an expert at setting up everything. First part is purely spent on labor which isn't cheap. Second Part of the money is spent on them having the expertise and setting things up properly. Can you do better for the money if you do it yourself - probably. Is it a lot more work - definately. The ones that does this for a living have to say what % of the money is for their work compared to the electronics, but obviously it is a decent amount so they can stay in business.

11-07-09, 06:23 AM	#16 \| Link
Kelvin1965S Advanced Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 855	More CI ramblings...... I'm not rich enough to have a CI come and put in a home theater for me (in fact I haven't even got a spare room for one, so they wouldn't probably bother with me anyway ). But I do appreciate what they can do to help (albeit for a price): I've spent four or five years reading everything I can on here and elsewhere, I've bought various pieces of equipment and gradually upgraded (sometimes making mistakes/sideways moves) to get a system that I feel is really good in my environment. I appreciate that if I'd had the money, this long learing curve which included calibration and learning about Anamorphic lenses and setting up a video proccesor, would have been far less painful with a CI to do it all for me. I do however appreciate that while I may not have a 'top of the range' setup, I've really maximised what I do have by taking a lot of time to set it up and upgrade it to optimise it for my requirements, much like a good CI would do (It's just taken a loooooong time ). I was interested in Otto's comment about the cheaper TV being better setup as in some ways it applies to me: My HD350 is setup in a very long throw with an ISCO II lens (secondhand I might add) and a 1.5 gain screen. In this configuration I'm getting close to maximum CR due to long throw and the iris stopped down (I learnt how to adjust it in smaller steps using the service menu), so I may be getting as much CR as some HD750 owners in a short throw low gain screen setup with their iris opened up for example. If only a cheap external CMS was available to perfect the colours, though at least the HDQ does a passable job for now. Back to the original question though, I wouldn't expect much mention of Runco products on this section due to price. I'd expect to read about them in the $20,000 plus section though if I was really interested (or perhaps found a secondhand one and wanted to read up for example). Last edited by Kelvin1965S; 11-07-09 at 06:49 AM..

11-07-09, 10:21 AM	#17 \| Link
Chris Dallas AVS Special Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada & Malibu California. Posts: 1,126	I love forums like this and especially this one, been here many many years. I have never used a CI and probably never will. Money is not the issue at all, I just hate when they lie and try to take advantage of consumers and believe me there are plenty of those around. As for Runco I personally would never buy one for the same reasons stated above. They use to rebadge BenQ projectors and charge the consumer double if not more than what the exact same unit would cost from BenQ even if it was slightly different it was still not worth the difference imo. So who really knows what else they did to the rest of their line. One would argue why I would pay $650,000 for an Enzo in 2003 when I could get a Viper with the same horsepower as the Enzo for a lot less. Well, that same Viper in 2003 that was say $100K at the time is probably now worth $40K and the Enzo is worth $1.4 million. The BenQ or the Runco have and will never appreciate in value after that initial purchase yet Runco overcharged their customers for that exact same product they could have bought from BenQ. People remember things, they cannot forget what happened in the past so for that reason imo Runco does not get any attention, there are just not enough users with Runco projectors out there like there used to be. __________________ Cheers Chris RS20, 150" width 2.35:1 screen, Proud owner of 1 of 399 Enzo Ferrari's in the world, a gorgeous yellow Ferrari 599GTB, + a 1970 Road Runner see it here

11-08-09, 07:50 AM	#23 \| Link
chadly25 Membership Revoked Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,084	Don't worry about Chris. I'm not even sure if he believes what he said. His comment just presented another opportunity for him to mention that he owns a very expensive car in his WAY off analogy. The signature is enough Chris, we get it. Congrats!

11-08-09, 08:28 AM	#24 \| Link
HogPilot HT Junkie AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Good Ol' US of A Posts: 1,231 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	Chris is talking about the Runco CL-710, which was a re-badged BenQ 8700. If you do a search on AVS for "CL-710" you'll find it discussed in several threads. The MSRP was $2K higher, but rumor was that the CL-710 had different firmware that offered several refinements over the 8700. I've only had a chance to see a Runco in action once, and it was back on 2006 at a local HT CI shop. Contrary to some of the stories here, the salesman we talked to was very friendly and was more than happy to take us into their "high-end" room and do some demos for us. I was actually quite impressed with the image the Runco threw, although at the time my only reference for a projector was my InFocus SP5000 and my buddy's Toshiba MT-700. The question is, for the price that you pay for the Runco can you get more "value" depending on your level of knowledge and the price/performance ratio of other brands. For those who don't have the time or the know-how to do things on their own, Runco's customer service and solid network of CIs may be well worth the money. __________________ There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

11-08-09, 09:47 PM	#26 \| Link
rlsmith AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 5,259	If you buy a Runco, you will get a very high quality product. It is certainly a diminishing returns situation (you spend a lot more to get a relatively small improvement). I don't think it is fair to suggest that Runco is a rip-off or just for a sense of prestige. Their products are good, period, and you can rely on their commitments to their customers. [I am absolutely a DIY type myself and always look for a real bargain so I am not a Runco customer but I do respect the company.]