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#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#21,461 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/17707009


millerwill, have you posted anywhere your impressions of adding Wides? I have bought the speakers for it, but need a pre/pro with DSX to make the move.


Jeff

Jeff, I do like the Wides; happy that I made the swap for a new AVR that allows them. Like many have said, though, it's not a 'revolutionary' addition, but a nice 'evolutionary' one.


I'm particularly happy now that I've learned how to get 'Dolby EX DSX' from the Listening Modes on the Onk 1007, when one has 5.1 sources on HDTV. Dolby EX expands the 5.1 input to the 'conventional' 7.1 speakers, and DSX adds the Width speakers. Makes a very nice, all encompassing audio field.


I don't use Dyn Volume since I really don't need to worry about volume (house is isolated enough from neighbors, and my HT room is pretty far from our upstairs bedroom, for when my wife turns in early). I do have Dyn EQ 'on', though I haven't noticed a major contribution that it makes; I'm guessing that this is because I tend to have the volume at approx'ly the same level most of the time. In any event, I don't see any problems that it causes, and maybe it is helping to even out the EQ.


I agonized over replacing my Onk 805 since I really liked it a great deal. It is only because of wanting the Width speakers of DSX that I did it. Fortunately, the Onk 1007 doesn't seem to give anything away audio-wise compared to the 805, and its version of Aud MultEQ XT may be somewhat better, e.g., with the newer mike.
 
#21,462 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/17707794


Check that your AVR has not turned on "night mode" and you have the gain boosted to compensate for that. Something about the way the movie is (mistakenly) coded requires me to manually turn night mode off. I sill needed the additional displacement, but this little quirk didn't help.


Jeff

Seems that "Late Night" mode for Dolby TrueHD sources, my AVR defaults to a "Auto" setting, but can be turned off. Can't test it at higher volume levels right now, but I doubt it would have accounted for the LFE levels that worried me with certain SFX passages in the movie, particularly the low freqs when he takes off with his rocket boosters in his boots. When I get a chance I'll do a better test at higher volumes, and make a note to check this setting when I play a movie, so THANKS.


Onkyo 906 PDF Manual page 109:

With the Late Night function, you can reduce the dynamic range of Dolby Digital material so that you can still hear quiet parts even when listening at low volume levelsideal for watching movies late at night when you don't want to disturb anyone.
 
#21,463 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill /forum/post/17709196


I'm particularly happy now that I've learned how to get 'Dolby EX DSX' from the Listening Modes on the Onk 1007, when one has 5.1 sources on HDTV. Dolby EX expands the 5.1 input to the 'conventional' 7.1 speakers, and DSX adds the Width speakers. Makes a very nice, all encompassing audio field.

Try using DPL-IIx Movie DSX instead. Dolby EX doesn't create 7.1 from the 5.1, since EX only creates a single band-limited rear channel which is then played back identically in both rear speakers. DPL-IIx Movie, on the other hand, creates unique full range rear channels based on the phase/level relationship of the sound in the side surround channels. Dolby has said that for home playback, EX-enabled 5.1 tracks should be played back using DPL-IIx Movie on 7.1 systems. It should give you more precise steering across the rear soundstage.
 
#21,464 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson /forum/post/17709486


Try using DPL-IIx Movie DSX instead. Dolby EX doesn't create 7.1 from the 5.1, since EX only creates a single band-limited rear channel which is then played back identically in both rear speakers. DPL-IIx Movie, on the other hand, creates unique full range rear channels based on the phase/level relationship of the sound in the side surround channels. Dolby has said that for home playback, EX-enabled 5.1 tracks should be played back using DPL-IIx Movie on 7.1 systems. It should give you more precise steering across the rear soundstage.

Very interesting, Jeremy; thanks for the info. I actually use only one Sur Back speaker, i.e., have a conventional 6.1 setup before adding the Width speakers. So would Dolby EX DSX or PLIIx Movie DSX be any different in this case?
 
#21,465 ·
I do not understand the recommendation for the Highs placement


Looking at the graphic on the Audyssey site, it appears that they should be


1.) 45* to the right and left of center of the listener position.


or, as it sounds from this quote from Audyssey site:

The next most important acoustical and perceptual cues come from reflections above the front stage. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Height channels (LH and RH) that should be ideally positioned at a 45° elevation angle.
2.) Elevation angle implies to me that would be 45* up.


Now given that my seating is abougt 13' back from the screen, that would seem that in the case of:


1) The speakers would need to be in the walls on left and right about half way toward the screen, (High of course), and aimed at teh listener.


or


2.) Again, about half way toward the screen, mounted on the ceiling.


Neither seem logical to me.


Here's a diagram and pic of my room:






I'm thinking of putting them in the soffitt, and they would be more or less directly over the L and R speakers. But based on how I'm interpreting the specs from the site, I'm wondering if I should figure out somcething closer to the seating in the soffits (or ceiling).


Thoughts?


P.S. - As you probably can tell, I really don't have a good room for wides.


Thanks for any thoughts.
 
#21,466 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill /forum/post/17709642


Very interesting, Jeremy; thanks for the info. I actually use only one Sur Back speaker, i.e., have a conventional 6.1 setup before adding the Width speakers. So would Dolby EX DSX or PLIIx Movie DSX be any different in this case?

Ah, if you only have 6.1 + widths, use DPL-IIx Music DSX. On 6.1 setups, DPL-IIx Music Mode is your only DPL-IIx option. It does the same thing as Dolby EX, but creates a full range rear channel and leaves a slight bit of the rear channel sound in the side surrounds to help reduce the odds of perceived reversal (i.e. the phenomenon where a single point source behind you can sound like it's coming from in front of you). Don't let the "Music" label fool you - it works great for movies.
 
#21,467 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind /forum/post/17705575


It has XT. If it does not have the $100 DynEQ/DynVol firmware upgrade installed you should purchase that from Denon online. GREAT price, if that is a new unit.

It's a used 3808ci demo-unit from an authorized denon seller. I'm not sure if it has the Audyssey upgrade package installed or not. Is there a way to find that out once I plug in the unit?


Thanks for the help.
 
#21,468 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aswforte /forum/post/17710696


It's a used 3808ci demo-unit from an authorized denon seller. I'm not sure if it has the Audyssey upgrade package installed or not. Is there a way to find that out once I plug in the unit?

Still a great deal, with new 2 yr warranty no doubt. You must be excited, that's a nice model. Yes when you get it you can check the firmware version or just see if the DynEQ/DynVol options are on the GUI. Hint: you might want to do a "reset the microprocessor" to clear out all the prior settings before you run Autosetup.


There's lots of stuff available on the usa.denon website under Support, Document Archives, such as the OM here:
http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-3808CI-...E-PG36_000.pdf

"Ultimate Feature Package Ugrade" here:
http://www.usa.denon.com/upgrade/

BTW I do not have this model and I recommend you post in the owner's thread I linked for you before, where all this is also more on topic, see my PM.
 
#21,469 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 /forum/post/17707832


I don't understand that comment either, but I have not read the 3007 manual that closely. My TX SR-706 sets levels and distances independently for each speaker. Crossovers are set in pairs (Center (alone), Front L/R, Side L/R, Back L/R). On my latest run my speakers came back as Front L/R = Full Band, Center = Full Band, Side Surrounds = 90 Hz, and Back Surrounds = 40 Hz. I set everything to 80 Hz (except the side surrounds that stayed at 90 Hz) with the LFE LPF set to 120 Hz. None of my speakers are THX but 80 Hz is a good, all around crossover value.

I'm not sure where this leaves me or what I should set to be sure my SUB is doing the bass and the small NHT Super Zeros aren't.


For anyone interested in chiming in, here are the posts for this particular 'thread':

Original Question

Original answer

Where I"m at now, with latest response to this in quote above
 
#21,470 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewingr /forum/post/17710137


I do not understand the recommendation for the Highs placement


Looking at the graphic on the Audyssey site, it appears that they should be


1.) 45* to the right and left of center of the listener position.


or, as it sounds from this quote from Audyssey site:

The next most important acoustical and perceptual cues come from reflections above the front stage. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Height channels (LH and RH) that should be ideally positioned at a 45° elevation angle.
2.) Elevation angle implies to me that would be 45* up.


Now given that my seating is abougt 13' back from the screen, that would seem that in the case of:


1) The speakers would need to be in the walls on left and right about half way toward the screen, (High of course), and aimed at teh listener.


or


2.) Again, about half way toward the screen, mounted on the ceiling.


Neither seem logical to me.


I'm thinking of putting them in the soffitt, and they would be more or less directly over the L and R speakers. But based on how I'm interpreting the specs from the site, I'm wondering if I should figure out somcething closer to the seating in the soffits (or ceiling).


Thoughts?


P.S. - As you probably can tell, I really don't have a good room for wides.


Thanks for any thoughts.

It's all about the angles. Wherever they say the speakers need to be, that's where they need to be.


Many of us have sized our screens to fit the room width, and L&R speakers are placed based on the screen. Many times, that leaves no front wall space at +/-60° for the wides. And with those wide screens, viewing distances to make the most of our screen size and typical residential ceiling heights, for many that puts the Highs on the ceiling.



Nonetheless, I have bought the additional speakers for Wides and only need to wait for the right pre/pro to replace my OP 885. With the 885 being relatively new and having just upgraded my projector, that probably won't be soon. But I will need that time to decide how to mount the right Wide speaker on a carpet-covered 3/4" particle board covering a window opening.


Jeff
 
#21,471 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson /forum/post/17710319


Ah, if you only have 6.1 + widths, use DPL-IIx Music DSX. On 6.1 setups, DPL-IIx Music Mode is your only DPL-IIx option. It does the same thing as Dolby EX, but creates a full range rear channel and leaves a slight bit of the rear channel sound in the side surrounds to help reduce the odds of perceived reversal (i.e. the phenomenon where a single point source behind you can sound like it's coming from in front of you). Don't let the "Music" label fool you - it works great for movies.

One word of caution: DPLIIx-Music will spread the center channel to the L and R and this could cause some artifacts with dialog. DPLIIx Cinema doesn't do that. It's not an issue with music where the vocals are almost always mixed in the three front channels, but it is an issue with movies.
 
#21,472 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewingr /forum/post/17710137


I do not understand the recommendation for the Highs placement


Looking at the graphic on the Audyssey site, it appears that they should be


1.) 45* to the right and left of center of the listener position.


or, as it sounds from this quote from Audyssey site:

The next most important acoustical and perceptual cues come from reflections above the front stage. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Height channels (LH and RH) that should be ideally positioned at a 45° elevation angle.
2.) Elevation angle implies to me that would be 45* up.

It's both: 45° horizontal angle and 45° vertical angle as shown in the diagram. If the ceiling is not high enough to support a 45° vertical angle then the recommendation is to put the Height speakers on the front wall (outside the front L and R) and as high up as possible. Also, try to point them down to the listener. MultEQ will take care of the distances.
 
#21,473 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/17711172


Many of us have sized our screens to fit the room width, and L&R speakers are placed based on the screen. Many times, that leaves no front wall space at +/-60° for the wides.

In most rooms, 60° puts the Wides on the side walls (near the front). You would need a pretty wide room to get the Wides at 60° on the front wall.
 
#21,474 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/17711246


One word of caution: DPLIIx-Music will spread the center channel to the L and R and this could cause some artifacts with dialog. DPLIIx Cinema doesn't do that. It's not an issue with music where the vocals are almost always mixed in the three front channels, but it is an issue with movies.

I was talking specifically about using DPL-IIx Music to create 6.1 from 5.1 instead of Dolby EX. It doesn't change the LCR at all - just uses the DPL-IIx Music mode to create the rear channel. DPL-IIx Movie is unavailable for use on 6.1 systems when playing 5.1 sources (whereas both forms are available for 2-channel sources, but that's not what we were talking about).


He's wanting to use DSX but still have the rear channel active on an 8.1 setup, and was formerly using Dolby EX DSX, whereas I'm recommending using DPL-IIx Music DSX because it will provide a full range rear channel and steer the rear surround between the 3 surround speakers to prevent perceived reversal from having a single source directly behind the listener.
 
#21,475 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson /forum/post/17711379


I was talking specifically about using DPL-IIx Music to create 6.1 from 5.1 instead of Dolby EX. It doesn't change the LCR at all - just uses the DPL-IIx Music mode to create the rear channel.

Got it. My comments were about upmixing, but you're right that's not the issue here.
 
#21,476 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/17711258


It's both: 45° horizontal angle and 45° vertical angle as shown in the diagram. If the ceiling is not high enough to support a 45° vertical angle then the recommendation is to put the Height speakers on the front wall (outside the front L and R) and as high up as possible. Also, try to point them down to the listener. MultEQ will take care of the distances.

In the same context, will it ever "take care of" the angles as well, e.g. the Heights in this room are at +/-45° angle and 35° elevation while the Heights in this room are at +/-50° angle and 40° elevation? My apologies as I seem to remember you posting the "tolerance" already; is it pretty much unnecessary that the exact angles/elevations be known because most installations will fall within the tolerance?
 
#21,477 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewingr /forum/post/17711163


I'm not sure where this leaves me or what I should set to be sure my SUB is doing the bass and the small NHT Super Zeros aren't.


For anyone interested in chiming in, here are the posts for this particular 'thread':

Original Question

Original answer

Where I"m at now, with latest response to this in quote above

Where this leaves you is right where I left it.


Hook the speakers and sub up as I recommended.


Run Audyssey.


The results will give you the recommended crossover points.


Save the results if they look good.


In the Speaker Setup menu change the crossovers to that you want. You can raise the crossover (higher in frequency) if you desire, but never lower the crossover from the recommended setting.


Above all, read and understand the owner's manual. The only thing that is not clear is how flexible the crossover setting is on your model, but it will still do what you need it to do.
 
#21,478 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/17711487


In the same context, will it ever "take care of" the angles as well, e.g. the Heights in this room are at +/-45° angle and 35° elevation while the Heights in this room are at +/-50° angle and 40° elevation? My apologies as I seem to remember you posting the "tolerance" already; is it pretty much unnecessary that the exact angles/elevations be known because most installations will fall within the tolerance?

That's a much more difficult problem. To create a "virtual" angle requires using multiple speakers to generate a phantom. Stereo does that well in the horizontal plane by using amplitude panning, but even then it only really works for one listener. However, once you try to create a vertical phantom things start to fall apart because you have to rely on head-related transfer functions that are very different from person to person.


The tolerances on the placement of Wides and Heights can be ±10°.
 
#21,480 ·
Chris,


Lest this give someone gets the wrong idea, you mean if the user is unwilling/unable to mount them on/in the ceiling, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/17711258


If the ceiling is not high enough to support a 45° vertical angle then the recommendation is to put the Height speakers on the front wall (outside the front L and R) and as high up as possible.
 
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