Official OPPO BDP-83SE Analog Audio Discussion Only Thread

Techlord · 12-14-09, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salmonsc

Not qualified to comment on the rest of your post - but your closing comment confused me:

So, are you saying mods don't make much of a difference to the AQ of SE - or that they do but only b/c of the quality of the other components?

I think what sillysally was trying to convey is for a noticeable difference in SQ depends on many different components than just any one mod.

salmonsc · 12-14-09, 11:24 PM

Yeah - & no offence - but that's a little banal. Obviously SQ depends on a great deal of things. But the reason we mod is b/c we believe some components are more important that others - no?

sillysally · 12-14-09, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ted_b

SS,
The only thing Ric said was "abyssmal" is the power supply! And as I stated in my own reviews and post-comments, if you look at the pictures on the Oppo site, it's clear that the newer SE power supply is not beefier or large by any great extent, just a different switching PS that has different voltages for the Sabre DACs. It's still a very minor league PS compared to what Ric, Dan and others replace into their flagship modifications. And it shouldn't surprise you that any incremental NuForce one (NuForce never said they were going to add a HUGE PS) wouldn't pass muster with Ric. I wouldn't get all excited about the comment in either direction. I surely didn't read it as NuForce "bashing".

Whether or not the PS in the SE or NE is "abyssmal" is not really the point. What we are working with is the Oppo audio board and how you go about changing that printed audio circuit board to accommodate a beefier PS along with Sabre DACs. And that is what I was playing with, not the PS but the audio board itself and how it relates to the PS. Don't forget we are not starting from the ground up, we are using the audio board and trying to work around it for the better.
Also lets not forget about firmware updates from Oppo, will they work with radically changed PS and audio board.

And what my conclusions are, is that by changing a few key circuits will work and work well. The risk of radically changing the PS and audio board is a very complex proses and can open up a whole new can of worms if you are going to use the Oppo audio board.

The easy way to understand this BD player or any, is think of it as you would a desk top computer. Would you do a big mod to a audio board or just swap it out? Would you mod the PS or just swap it out? I think in both cases you would swap it out and then do some other mods to accommodate the swapping mods that you did.

I am sure Dan is very good at what he does, and for a price he will over come these pitfalls and have a better sound for some audio rigs than the SE or NE probably. And yes imo the SE/NE are better suited to handle a wider range of audio equipment but at a cost of slightly less audiophile AQ.

btw, did you try Ric's mod for the BD-83 that he has posted?

Bottom line is, I am not saying that the mods you are suggesting are wrong. I am just saying Buyer Beware.

ss

sillysally · 12-14-09, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techlord

I think what sillysally was trying to convey is for a noticeable difference in SQ depends on many different components than just any one mod.

Yes that is correct.

ss

nuforce-jason · 12-15-09, 05:03 AM

Ric has been bashing his "competition" since SE and NE came out. First he used derogatory terms to trash Oppo's parts, after a stern warning from Oppo, the posting was removed. Nuforce continues to be his target on his website going on and on about the NE couldn't sound as good as his mod, the Nuforce mod consisted of only a few swapped parts etc.

We prefer to take the high ground and not get into any argument. The ultimate judge is the customer. We believe that there is no need to disparage another company to earn our business. In our brief history since 2005, we have never talk down on any competitors. We let reviewers and customers be the judge.
You can tell people how great your work is, but hey, trashing competitor is not cool. Similarly, is it cool for Nuforce to bring out our high price lawyer and drag a small competitor to court to shut him up? Off course not.

But I feel that I have to say something about our NE mod. NE is not an after thought or over the weekend mod. Nuforce has access to SE board circuit and we have been involved in evaluating the SE sound for many months before the release. Our modification is not a trial and error or "lets swap out this parts and see if it sound good". There are more than 30 changes to the SE board that we have to setup a production line to do the mod.

A lot of work has been invested in studying the circuit and carefully compare NE sound versus reference quality CD player to ensure that customers will get a world class player.

We have built a reputation of providing exceptional quality products (from $49 earphones to $5000/pair mono amp) with rave reviewers by customers. The OPPO BDP-83SE Nuforce Edition is no different.

Jason

Highlander_AVS · 12-15-09, 05:26 AM

Thanks Jason

Anyway, imho, this always happens because there's is a space in mods due isn't out a machine with ALL the Extreme improvements as I suggested you via PM ....

You as NuForce have the knowledge, the structure and the possibility to do the Best Machine Ever shuting up the mouth to all competitors if you'll planed it or want it to do, realizing a product that can compete with 20k mrsp devices

Think at that ... there's a market and space even for this

My last 2 cents

Techlord · 12-15-09, 06:29 AM

Nice to hear from you again Jason,

I understand it takes a lot of R&D to design and implement design changes in a circuit board such as your NuForce Edition version of the Oppo BDP-83. If the SE does what I think it does I will be seriously considering the NuForce Edition. From what one of our members have been saying about it, he really enjoys listening to its 2ch stereo whether it be movies or music! I was so impressed with your NE circuit board I saved the picture and put it on as my desktop background.

EyeintheSky · 12-15-09, 08:50 AM

Well, my SE arrives today according to FEDEX. Can't wait.
It's coming up the driveway this very moment!!
Gotta get the door. . .

RobJK · 12-15-09, 11:24 AM

I recently was able to conduct a head-to-head comparison of the Oppo BDP83-SE and the NuForce Edition. I will apologize up front for the delay is getting this review out, as well as its length. But I wanted to be as complete as I could in presenting a hopefully useful review. If you only want to know my conclusions and would prefer to avoid my philosophizing, please skip to the last section. For the rest of you, here are the details and philosophizing: Both players had at least 100 hours on them before serious listening tests were conducted. Each player was connected to my Aesthetix Janus preamp using identical cables. To help me further differentiate between the sonic contribution of the cables and the contribution of the players, I listened with three different sets of identical cables: (1) Tara Labs RSC Reference, a fairly transparent $200 cable, (2) BlueJeans LC-1 cables, a surprisingly excellent high-value $40 cable, and (3) AudioQuest Jaguar, at $400 a pair. None of these cables are quite as transparent and smooth as my reference AudioQuest Colorado, but I didn’t want to spend another $1000 on a second set just to perform the comparison. The predominant sound characteristics of each player were obvious with all the cables I used. More of the differences and benefits were obvious with the best cables. I won’t again list all the other components which make up my system, as they are mentioned in my previous posts and my profile.

After reading the more than sixty pages of this thread’s comments, and the varying perspectives of objective versus subjective listening, I thought I’d try to incorporate both views as much as possible. I attempted both the rigorous, left-brain dominated, engineering and scientifically based blinded testing procedure; as well as the right-brain dominated, subjective, experiential procedure. As someone trained in engineering and science, I have most often trusted the objective approach. But as I gain more experience under various listening conditions and learn more about the functioning of the human brain, I find myself more willing to entrust subjective perspectives with equal validity. Much of my awareness of these two perspectives is enlivened by recently reading two fascinating books: The first is a book intended to be primarily a business primer on the new economic reality facing the United States. It is Richard Pink’s book entitled “A Whole New Mind,” which explores the ways our didactic human two-hemisphere brain interprets our experiences and translates its analysis and emotions. The second book is “Musicophilia, Tales of Music and the Brain” by Oliver Sacks. Although I won’t get into the specifics of either of these books in detail here, I highly recommend both books in gaining a better understanding of how we as audiophiles interpret what we hear. Anyhow, on to the review...

For both my subjective and objective tests, I attempted to eliminate all variables other than the two players. Specifically, the interconnect cables were identical, the power cables were the identical stock cables, the same power conditioning was applied to each player, the latest firmware (a yet to be released beta version) was installed in each player, and identical CDs and SACDs were used. Checking the firmware version in setup screen showed that each player had the same Main version (BDP83-46-1210), Sub version (MCU83-24-0630), and Chip version (0B.00.01.00). However, the Loader version was different (BE2600 85752600 in the SE, BT0300 85750300 in the NE). Perhaps someone from Oppo or NuForce with greater technical knowledge can explain whether that variance should produce any audible difference. I used the same remote control to commence playback, and the players responded precisely. This made A-B loop comparisons very easy.
For CD sourced selections, I made a digital image of the original CD using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) on my PC, which corrects any read errors by making multiple reads of the data on the CD. I then burned two identical CD-R copies from the image file. The reason I made two copies was because EAC can actually improve the sound quality over the original CD. This isn’t magic, but rather a function of how digital data can be restored by using non-linear multi-pass reading and re-reading of the data, instead of the built-in, real-time, linear error correction of typical CD players. I’ve had many original CDs with audible drop-outs or spatially muddied sections which I’ve run through this process and the data has been restored. A consistently audible side effect is that the CD-R almost always sounds better overall as well. I used these two identical CD-Rs as my CD comparison material.

The CDs I used with this method include: “Just a Little Lovin” by Shelby Lynne -- One of the better sounding CDs I own, mastered by Doug Sax; “Parachutes” by Coldplay; “No Line on the Horizon” by U2 which exhibits some very complex layering of very low frequency information; “Forget About It” by Alison Krauss which highlights female vocal clarity and proper fundamental to harmonic balance; “Fox Confessor Brings the Flood” by Neko Case, which showcases a rich reverberant sound field; and “I’m still the Same” by Bonnie Bramlett, which I just love if only because of Bonnie’s sassy, brassy performance. It is also a wonderful audiophile class soulful jazz recording.

I only wish that EAC could be used to make duplicate copies of SACDs as well. Of course with Sony’s copy protection implemented as part of the SACD protocol, it can’t. However, because I sometimes forget that I already own a particular SACD, or I receive a second copy as a gift, I do own three sets of duplicate SACDs. They are:

“The Quintet” Jazz at Massey Hall, a 1953 recording of Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Charles Mingus, and Max Roach. Although the original recording was of course not done directly to DSD, the audio quality is quite good, and performance is outstanding.

“Herb Pomeroy Big Band Jazz Live at Sandy’s” an SACD-only disc recorded by Mark Levinson using only two microphones on a Studer A80 with 1” tape at 30ips, then transferred directly to DSD. The ambient information within this recording is really amazing and life-like.

“Mahler Symphony No. 6 in A minor” by the San Francisco Symphony and Michael Tilson Thomas, recorded live, direct to DSD, in September 2001 at Davies Symphony Hall, and produced by Telarc. I believe this to be a world class recording of the classical genre.

For my non-head-to-head subjective listening I also used many other SACDs, too numerous to list here.

First Impressions:
When I first hooked up the NE, I had been listening continuously for more than a week to the SE, and therefore was quite accustomed to its sonic signature. I wanted to get a quick first impression of the NE even before its dielectrics were fully stabilized. I had been playing the Herb Pomeroy SACD extensively in the SE and put the second copy in the NE. I immediately noticed two things: First, the NE exhibited a bit more body—meaning that the lower mid-range and bass were more fully fleshed out. Secondly, and somewhat surprisingly, the high end seemed to lose a little bit of its “life.” It wasn’t drastic, but there was a noticeable reduction in the “air” and sparkle of cymbals, and trumpets seemed to lose just a bit of their spit. I thought that I should just let the player warm up for a while, and then check back for a direct head-to-head comparison later. Then, a few hours later, I realized that I hadn’t yet fully set up the player via its HDMI to video display connection. In my enthusiastic rush to listen, I forgot to enter the Setup screen and set the SACD processing to DSD, from its PCM default. From listening to the original BDP83 and the SE version, I greatly preferred keeping DSD in its native format processing. Turning this setting to DSD immediately restored the high frequency life that I was accustomed to. I then set the disc to repeat indefinitely, and waited a few days before making any direct head-to-head comparisons.
Also, thanks to the information provided in this forum’s thread, I learned that I should not try to play any SACD with the player connected via HDMI to an active monitor. I was always puzzled why the player would skip back to the beginning of a track whenever I turned my display on. Doing so forced the Oppo player to PCM mode and restarted the music to the beginning of the track. So, all subsequent listening was done with the monitor off and the processing set to DSD.

Subjective Head-to-Head Impressions:So, after a few days of warm-up, I began attempting to characterize the sounds from each player. As I indicated earlier, the most obvious difference I heard was that the NE seemed to have more body or warmth in the bass and lower midrange. The SE was somewhat leaner. But which one is correct? After listening to many different discs I came to prefer the NE because it seemed to present not just more warmth, but the feeling of greater harmonic integrity. This is difficult to describe, but for anyone who is familiar with live musical instruments such as a piano or guitar, you’ll probably understand what I mean. When a bass cord is struck, you expect that you’ll feel the fundamental and perhaps the second harmonic, with the higher harmonics presented in balance. I suppose someone with an already warm sounding system might prefer the SE’s lighter balance. But in my system, I thought the NE just sounded more harmonically accurate. Perhaps more importantly, when playing very complex bass passages, the NE was better able to delineate each instrument. Both the Mahler and U2 recordings were particularly illustrative of this trait. Although warmer in balance, the NE exhibited more composure and coherence when the music called for multipart bass lines.

The second predominant characteristic I heard was the smoothness, or ease, with which the NE presented the music. I thought that the SE was already very good in this regard. Up until I heard the NE, I wouldn’t have expected a noticeable improvement in this area. My thought is that the SE got the digital part of this characteristic right, and the NE took it even further with the analog section. In my opinion, Alison Krauss’s voice comes very close to demonstrating an analogy to the crystal clarity of a bell. On lesser CD players, this characteristic can sometimes take on an over-bright quality. The original BDP83 was very good at presenting Alison’s voice in a very natural manner. The SE further improved the smoothness and articulateness of her voice. The NE takes another step forward by removing yet another veil from the recording while further softening any rough edges. I’ve heard Alison perform live on many occasions. The presentation from the NE is the closest I’ve heard any digital player present her voice. Dare I say; it’s very analog-like?

The third characteristic I noticed was the precision with which the NE could recreate the sound stage. Again, this is an area where I thought the SE showed considerable improvement over the original BDP-83. And here the NE takes it to a higher degree of precision. In particular, the depth and width of the sound stage is in better focus. The optical analogy is fitting here. The NE seems to fine tune the focus so that the fields surrounding the instruments or voices are slightly better defined. It is easier to hear the layering of instruments from the front of the stage to the back. When I close my eyes and just listen. . . . . I can more easily imagine the musicians sitting right in front of me. The sound stage of the NE isn’t necessarily wider or deeper than the SE. It is just more tightly focused.

Lastly, the NE seems better able to reproduce the textures in high frequency content like cymbal splashes and brushes. Together with the additional mid and high frequency smoothness, this ability to better highlight high frequency textures adds up a very convincing sonic illusion of “you are there.”

Objective Head-to-Head Comparisons:
After a few days of subjective un-blinded listening, I had formed an impression of the sound characteristics of each player. This series of listening test should prove whether I could reliably identify those characteristics I subjectively formed. So, I set out to perform a direct, blinded, head-to-head test in the most objective way I knew. The SE was connected to Input 1 on the Aesthetix Janus preamp, and the NE was connected to Input 2. All cables were identical. Both discs were identical. A thirty second A to B segment was selected from each of six discs to highlight specific sound characteristics. When switching between sources on the preamp, there is a quarter second silence as the output mutes. This muting also occurs when selecting the same input a second time. This aspect allows a type of single-blinded A-B-X comparison, with only the remote operator knowing whether the input source is the same, or has changed. Both of the players and the preamp are behind closed doors, preventing both the listener and the remote operator from seeing the preamp’s input indicator. An infrared repeater is located inside the cabinet to relay the remote commands. I tried this method first as the listener, unbeknownst to me whether the operator selected the same or different input after each 30 second selection. As it turns out, the operator didn’t always know if the input selection changed either! We eventually learned that sometimes the Janus would mute for a quarter second, but not actually change inputs. Firmly pressing the remote button for a fraction of a second longer would ensure the change of inputs would occur. We finally decided that it would be prudent that after I announced my verdict of which player I thought I was listening, he would open the cabinet door and check the preamp’s display to ensure that it was set as he expected. After some trial and error, we got the procedure to the point where it was reliable. We repeated this switched listening for a few hours with most of the discs I previously listed. Unfortunately, by that time we were finished, we were both stressed and aggravated, and weren’t really enjoying the process at all.

Although my guesses at identifying each player were about 70% correct, the entire process induced tremendous “aural strain.” I swear that my ear drums and brain hurt! This wasn’t pain caused by a defect in the players, but apparently by the process itself. This was not the result that I usually experience while listening to music for enjoyment. For the remainder of the time I had the NE in my possession, I listened un-blinded, relaxed, subjectively, all the while enjoying the music. Although I am still sitting on the fence concerning the validity of double-blind listening tests, I know that it is not how I usually listen to music. It was not very enjoyable even though it provided some confidence in supporting my subjective results, albeit with only a C- grade. The very act of trying to analyze and choose seemed to reduce my hearing acuity. I couldn’t fully synthesize the experience. I had thought that the differences I heard when subjectively listening to the two players were pronounced enough for me to blindly identify the correct player every time. Perhaps I just don’t perform well under pressure. Or perhaps intellectual analysis occurs in a different part of the brain from where musical enjoyment and insight reside. Referring back to the two books I mentioned may provide some perspective. Specifically, the hypothesis is that “The left hemisphere handles logic, sequence, literalness, and analysis. The right hemisphere takes care of synthesis, emotional expression, context, and big picture”. {1} Whereas I don’t pretend to understand enough about the human mind to be sure, it seems to me that listening to music, when at its most fulfilling, is predominately a right brain activity.

Conclusions:
The NuForce upgrade of the Oppo BDP-83SE produces a similar overall audible degree of improvement as the upgrade from the regular BDP-83 to the SE version. It is a worthwhile refinement of the SE’s originally competent platform. I would imagine that further improvements are possible, but perhaps at a much higher cost, and with progressively diminishing returns. Others involved in making modifications could provide a better basis for that decision. For me, the $396 upgrade price over the SE is money well spent, as I have paid more for interconnects or power cables with less overall sonic impact. As I indicated in one of my earlier posts, I initially purchased the original BDP-83 to serve primarily as a Blu-ray player which could also serve as a temporary universal audio player. The SE upgrade caused me to reconsider the temporary aspect of that intention. With the NE upgrade I believe I can comfortably live with this player for a very long time. Although I still haven’t been able to directly compare the NE to the best mid-priced CD player I previously heard—the Cambridge Audio 840C--if I can trust my aural memory I’d say the NuForce is smoother and more refined in its soundstage presentation, and about equal in bass impact, balance, and control. This just speaks to CD playback. With the additional superior high resolution playback capabilities of SACD, DVD-Audio, and Blu-ray discs, the NuForce Edition more than one-ups the competition in the $1200 to $2000 disc player range.

Footnote:
{1.} Pink, Daniel H., A Whole New Mind (The Berkley Publishing Group, 2005,2006)

Perpendicular · 12-15-09, 11:33 AM

I still trust Ric's impressions and he does have a right to speak his mind like everyone else here. It is that person's right to do so, whether you like what people have to say and/or believe it about your product, or not. Just like I and others have a right to their opinion regarding Ric and other modders.

Personally, I have not heard or even seen a BDP-83 SE, NE or any of Rics 83 mods.
So, until I do, I will reserve my comments about one mod or upgrade being better than the other, as I and others have that right too.

Denophile · 12-15-09, 11:58 AM

sweet, satiating, and forthright review robJK!!!

Stimby · 12-15-09, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuforce-jason

Ric has been bashing his "competition" since SE and NE came out. First he used derogatory terms to trash Oppo's parts, after a stern warning from Oppo, the posting was removed. Nuforce continues to be his target on his website going on and on about the NE couldn't sound as good as his mod, the Nuforce mod consisted of only a few swapped parts etc.

We prefer to take the high ground and not get into any argument. The ultimate judge is the customer. We believe that there is no need to disparage another company to earn our business. In our brief history since 2005, we have never talk down on any competitors. We let reviewers and customers be the judge.
You can tell people how great your work is, but hey, trashing competitor is not cool. Similarly, is it cool for Nuforce to bring out our high price lawyer and drag a small competitor to court to shut him up? Off course not.

But I feel that I have to say something about our NE mod. NE is not an after thought or over the weekend mod. Nuforce has access to SE board circuit and we have been involved in evaluating the SE sound for many months before the release. Our modification is not a trial and error or "lets swap out this parts and see if it sound good". There are more than 30 changes to the SE board that we have to setup a production line to do the mod.

A lot of work has been invested in studying the circuit and carefully compare NE sound versus reference quality CD player to ensure that customers will get a world class player.

We have built a reputation of providing exceptional quality products (from $49 earphones to $5000/pair mono amp) with rave reviewers by customers. The OPPO BDP-83SE Nuforce Edition is no different.

Jason

This needed to be said. It's important to understand that Ric Schultz has a vested interest in creating the belief that the Oppo BDP-83 is not sufficiently good quality on its own. Understand that if you have your player modded, you will not be able to return the player, and that at the same time, comparison will be difficult unless you have a second BDP-83SE/NE.

Ric mods may not actually improve audio output, but merely make it louder.

Quote:

With this mod, the size of the instruments gets larger and it sounds about 2db louder at the same volume (no, we did not raise the gain, it is just that the natural dynamics and soundstage are no longer squashed!). The bass is way more controlled, deep and dynamic. Instruments in complex music now stand out from each other with amazing detail. The soundstage is bigger and much more air and space is revealed. It sounds more natural and real.

If the sound is 2db louder, then the comparison isn't really a good one. If not level matched, the louder output will almost always sound better.

It's also important to ask yourself serious questions if you're purchasing a mod. If some rather simple modifications would make the player radically better at music, then why is it not included by the factory then? If you believe either Oppo or NuForce is so incompetent as to ignore such basic ways to improve the player, then it is advisable you stay away from their products. As both companies have designed excellent products, it is rather unlikely that the engineers on either team are incompetent. Understand that the analog output stage from the SE/NE is a direct take on the reference ESS board, so that the ESS engineers would have had to miss the same modifications as well.

Secondly, as a response to Ric's claim that the power supply is simply "absymal", its important to ask yourself the same question. If a better power was so simply implemented, then why hasn't Oppo or NuForce done so? As for the fact that the power supply isn't "beefy", it doesn't have to be. DACs do not draw a significant amount of power, the player is not an amplifier, and clean power doesn't require a brick. I am fairly certain that the ABT chipset consumes substantially more power than the analog output stage.

I have a feeling that the tweakaudio mods don't improve the sound at all, in fact, many of his modifications might have a negative effect. But by raising the sound levels, coupled with the inability to directly compare two players and the natural placebo effect, will create the impression of an improvement where none exists.

rhcorolla · 12-15-09, 12:25 PM

RobJK, Tip of the hat for an excellent review. Job well done.

Unless I missed it, your cable references seem to indicate 2 ch review only. Could you please clarify ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobJK

Each player was connected to my Aesthetix Janus preamp using identical cables. To help me further differentiate between the sonic contribution of the cables and the contribution of the players, I listened with three different sets of identical cables: (1) Tara Labs RSC Reference, a fairly transparent $200 cable, (2) BlueJeans LC-1 cables, a surprisingly excellent high-value $40 cable, and (3) AudioQuest Jaguar, at $400 a pair

Perpendicular · 12-15-09, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stimby

This needed to be said. It's important to understand that Ric Schultz has a vested interest in creating the belief that the Oppo BDP-83 is not sufficiently good quality on its own.

This is flat out not true!
He has stated numerous times that the stock BDP-83 is a great sounding player on it's own, albeit, with room for improvement.

Rob,

Great write up!

salmonsc · 12-15-09, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stimby

I have a feeling that the tweakaudio mods don't improve the sound at all, in fact, many of his modifications might have a negative effect. But by raising the sound levels, coupled with the inability to directly compare two players and the natural placebo effect, will create the impression of an improvement where none exists.

You are entitled to your opinion - of course - but without having done any testing or comparison, I'm not sure how you can arrive at this conclusion(?).

Highlander_AVS · 12-15-09, 12:52 PM

@Stimby

Sorry, I don't think it's so easy as you made ....

Surely the things must be eared ..

Anyway, keep in mind that even with the direct ESS support, the best experience and engneers over the world, a Company at last could "loose the train" due to Price Point ...

So, some things are optimized in that direction leaving and forgot about esoteric that could cost too much and didn't assure anyway big sales due to price increase for this way ...

This is where GOOD and Honest Mod. can supply their knowledge and competence, studing and suggest solutions where price isn't an issue and extreme performance and results is the Target

RobJK · 12-15-09, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doak

RobJK: You obviously have no first hand experience with Ric or his work - no doubt to you own detriment.

Doak

That's true. I never claimed I did. I can only assume that you misread something in my post. My review had nothing to do with Ric's products, only the SE & NE.

RobJK · 12-15-09, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhcorolla

RobJK, Tip of the hat for an excellent review. Job well done.

Unless I missed it, your cable references seem to indicate 2 ch review only. Could you please clarify ?

rhcorolla: Yes. I only performed a head-to-head with the stereo outputs. My A/V controller only has one set of 7.1 inputs. Additionally, the Janus is capable of a higher level of resolution than my multichannel controller.

BigHat · 12-15-09, 01:46 PM

Am I alone in thinking it's a pretty good time to start a separate thread (BDP-83SE Mods?) where the modification companies and their advocates can go argue with each other to their heart's content and spare the rest of us? This is taking an ugly turn.

Ric Schultz · 12-15-09, 01:55 PM

There are different levels of expertise in all fields. Go to the Ayre thread and ask Charles Hansen if he would use 3 twenty five cent integrated circuits in series to power a very critical analog supply for the DAC. Then ask him if he would use steel leaded very inexpensive power supply caps that sound hard and use 1 cent ceramic bypass caps right on the DAC chip. He would have a giggle. From his standpoint and mine.....this is abysmal. He uses discrete zero feedback regulators, really good electroylic caps and film caps. Of course, his products not only sound better but are very expensive. What I can do is give you the same kind of expertise but at a seriously lower price(price of components plus $50 an hour and 30 years of tweaking experience).

There are those that are offended when you mention another company and tell it like it is. There is kind of an unwritten code in high end audio that as a manufacturer you should never mention another company or compare your products to theirs. This is not true in other fields.....look at the car ads.....our car gets blah blah, there's does not. The only difference is that there is nothing in high end audio that is very objective. I could tell you my analog power supply to the DAC using a highly modified discrete regulator with polyproplyne film caps has higher horsepower that is measureable.....but I cannot. However, I can tell you it sounds better....but then that is just my opinion. Obviously, everything I write is my opinion.

There is nothing on my site that is an attack on Nuforce or anyone else. All I am doing is describing what I see and what I hear. I do have a Nuforce unit here so this is not some willy nilly thing. I can hear....and so can you. I know good value and you can know it too. There is no reason why I cannot compare on my site the relative value of my mods versus anyones. This is not immoral. It is clearly written on my site that I feel the Nuforce mod is fair. $50 worth of parts and 2 hours labor is what you generally get at a $400retail pricepoint. And their $400 mod does improve the stock SE.....no doubt.

If I was saying my $200 mod to an SE sounds better than a $20,000 plus all out wacko dacko machine then I could see some eyes rolling for sure. But at the level we are talking.....who has the best tweaking skills? Who has been doing it longer? Who works for less money? Who has less overhead? Who makes things totally by hand?

The only thing that matters is the results. My products stand on their own. Go to Audioreview and read the reviews of my Millennium DAC I made some years ago....and also my attenuators.....every review is a 5.....Do you think I paid all those people to write those reviews? There will always be those that are cynical and will believe that I am just out to make a buck and have no idea of what I am doing. I am an enthusiast first. I love tweaking. I love improving things and giving incredible value to my customers.....so that they can enjoy music and life more.

I will try and stay off this site unless there is something else to clear up. My products speak for themselves.

Jim Hef · 12-15-09, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric Schultz

...I will try and stay off this site unless there is something else to clear up....

Although I don't know you or your products, read the post above yours and open a thread dedicated to your mods if that is allowed on this Forum.

Ric Schultz · 12-15-09, 02:06 PM

Yes, we could start another thread on Oppo mods. Why this is here is that the Nuforce version is just a mod. So, if the Nuforce thang can be discussed here than so can anything else. A thread for Oppo mods would be great. This would allow all the mod companies to chime in when they felt the need to explain something not stated clearly.

You have to realize that the Oppo represents a new level of product. They have created a MONSTER!!!! The public likes the fact that it does so much, so well and for so little. And the more serious enthusiasts like the fact that it can be modded for some serious way out there sound and still have all the functionality on top. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Usually there is a one year run on modding a machine....then something else comes along and you start modding that.....I just don't see that happening here. We are going to be modding these things for a few years. And as we play with them more they will just get better and better. Horray for Oppo. Horray for us all.

Here is a partial list of the people modding Oppos:
EVS
RAM
Asi-tek
Modwright
VSI...Allen Wright
There maybe more.....let us know.

Extremephono · 12-15-09, 02:21 PM

Can Ric explain why MBL and ASR Emitter used NE5532 or TL072? Those $0.25 op-amps in a $20K machine, and nobody complained that they sounded lean or opaque. Macintosh used the ESS Sabre DAC with 5532 in their $6000 CDP as well. Can they not afford a more expensive opamp?

If we check out brands like 47lab, you probably would comment that the parts look like cheap chinese made components, but the sound is nothing but.

I think the design plays very important key, yes, to many casual consumer, discrete output stage sounds sexy. However, how would one match transistors to as tight a tolerance as laser-trimmed op-amps? How do we deal with DC-offset, and the necessary evil of capacitors in the signal path (yes, throw money and buy a Jensen oil cap, for $80 each, and then would a $80 capacitor along the signal path sounding better than no capacitor?
Discrete transistors are notorious in terms of their gain HFE consistency both in gain and gain vs. frequency - no 2 transistors are alike. That's why we have op-amps that are internally compensated to become a linear device.

sbjork · 12-15-09, 02:24 PM

Stimby:

Fair questions. Not particularly popular ones with some people around here, but fair nonetheless.

videoaddikt · 12-15-09, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigHat

Am I alone in thinking it's a pretty good time to start a separate thread (BDP-83SE Mods?) where the modification companies and their advocates can go argue with each other to their heart's content and spare the rest of us? This is taking an ugly turn.

Excellent idea! And let's start THAT topic with RobJk's review of NF, as his seems the most consistent, non-argumentative, and objective. Of course, keep his base to SE review in this thread where it belongs..and SHOULD be the only kind of review in this thread.
Let's keep baseless assumptions also out of the thread, or any thread for that matter.
Whether one agrees with an approach or implementation, there is no reason to go off on a tangent topic beyond our control or knowledge. Positive or negative, report your impressions and move on. At least I thought that was the objective of this thread from the start, my apologies if I'm mistaken.

salmonsc · 12-15-09, 02:27 PM

+1! I think a thread for Oppo mods would be a good idea - I'm really interested in the potential of mods but they have led us a little OT in this thread.

JohnAV · 12-15-09, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric Schultz

There are different levels of expertise in all fields. Go to the Ayre thread and ask Charles Hansen if he would use 3 twenty five cent integrated circuits in series to power a very critical analog supply for the DAC. Then ask him if he would use steel leaded very inexpensive power supply caps that sound hard and use 1 cent ceramic bypass caps right on the DAC chip. He would have a giggle. From his standpoint and mine.....this is abysmal. He uses discrete zero feedback regulators, really good electroylic caps and film caps. Of course, his products not only sound better but are very expensive. What I can do is give you the same kind of expertise but at a seriously lower price(price of components plus $50 an hour and 30 years of tweaking experience

Simply choosing a better part over another part may not yield performance gains against a existing circuit design. Remember these vendors performed extensive testing to achieve perceivable gains in Analog performance.

In its self audio tweeking or modding should be in its own thread so we readers don't have to experience hyped claim's or views that are clearly veiled attempts of sale of services.

Perpendicular · 12-15-09, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnAV

In its self audio tweeking or modding should be in its own thread so we readers don't have to experience hyped claim's or views that are clearly veiled attempts of sale of services.

Done.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post17725854

videoaddikt · 12-15-09, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perpendicular

Done.

+++1! There's a place for everything, and everything in it's place

doak · 12-15-09, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobJK

That's true. I never claimed I did. I can only assume that you misread something in my post. My review had nothing to do with Ric's products, only the SE & NE.

Mea culpa Rob. My comment was not for you at all.
Pardonnez-moi s'il vous plaît.

12-15-09, 11:24 AM	#1839 \| Link
RobJK New Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 13	Head-to-Head Review of SE and NuForce Edition I recently was able to conduct a head-to-head comparison of the Oppo BDP83-SE and the NuForce Edition. I will apologize up front for the delay is getting this review out, as well as its length. But I wanted to be as complete as I could in presenting a hopefully useful review. If you only want to know my conclusions and would prefer to avoid my philosophizing, please skip to the last section. For the rest of you, here are the details and philosophizing: Both players had at least 100 hours on them before serious listening tests were conducted. Each player was connected to my Aesthetix Janus preamp using identical cables. To help me further differentiate between the sonic contribution of the cables and the contribution of the players, I listened with three different sets of identical cables: (1) Tara Labs RSC Reference, a fairly transparent $200 cable, (2) BlueJeans LC-1 cables, a surprisingly excellent high-value $40 cable, and (3) AudioQuest Jaguar, at $400 a pair. None of these cables are quite as transparent and smooth as my reference AudioQuest Colorado, but I didn’t want to spend another $1000 on a second set just to perform the comparison. The predominant sound characteristics of each player were obvious with all the cables I used. More of the differences and benefits were obvious with the best cables. I won’t again list all the other components which make up my system, as they are mentioned in my previous posts and my profile. After reading the more than sixty pages of this thread’s comments, and the varying perspectives of objective versus subjective listening, I thought I’d try to incorporate both views as much as possible. I attempted both the rigorous, left-brain dominated, engineering and scientifically based blinded testing procedure; as well as the right-brain dominated, subjective, experiential procedure. As someone trained in engineering and science, I have most often trusted the objective approach. But as I gain more experience under various listening conditions and learn more about the functioning of the human brain, I find myself more willing to entrust subjective perspectives with equal validity. Much of my awareness of these two perspectives is enlivened by recently reading two fascinating books: The first is a book intended to be primarily a business primer on the new economic reality facing the United States. It is Richard Pink’s book entitled “A Whole New Mind,” which explores the ways our didactic human two-hemisphere brain interprets our experiences and translates its analysis and emotions. The second book is “Musicophilia, Tales of Music and the Brain” by Oliver Sacks. Although I won’t get into the specifics of either of these books in detail here, I highly recommend both books in gaining a better understanding of how we as audiophiles interpret what we hear. Anyhow, on to the review... For both my subjective and objective tests, I attempted to eliminate all variables other than the two players. Specifically, the interconnect cables were identical, the power cables were the identical stock cables, the same power conditioning was applied to each player, the latest firmware (a yet to be released beta version) was installed in each player, and identical CDs and SACDs were used. Checking the firmware version in setup screen showed that each player had the same Main version (BDP83-46-1210), Sub version (MCU83-24-0630), and Chip version (0B.00.01.00). However, the Loader version was different (BE2600 85752600 in the SE, BT0300 85750300 in the NE). Perhaps someone from Oppo or NuForce with greater technical knowledge can explain whether that variance should produce any audible difference. I used the same remote control to commence playback, and the players responded precisely. This made A-B loop comparisons very easy. For CD sourced selections, I made a digital image of the original CD using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) on my PC, which corrects any read errors by making multiple reads of the data on the CD. I then burned two identical CD-R copies from the image file. The reason I made two copies was because EAC can actually improve the sound quality over the original CD. This isn’t magic, but rather a function of how digital data can be restored by using non-linear multi-pass reading and re-reading of the data, instead of the built-in, real-time, linear error correction of typical CD players. I’ve had many original CDs with audible drop-outs or spatially muddied sections which I’ve run through this process and the data has been restored. A consistently audible side effect is that the CD-R almost always sounds better overall as well. I used these two identical CD-Rs as my CD comparison material. The CDs I used with this method include: “Just a Little Lovin” by Shelby Lynne -- One of the better sounding CDs I own, mastered by Doug Sax; “Parachutes” by Coldplay; “No Line on the Horizon” by U2 which exhibits some very complex layering of very low frequency information; “Forget About It” by Alison Krauss which highlights female vocal clarity and proper fundamental to harmonic balance; “Fox Confessor Brings the Flood” by Neko Case, which showcases a rich reverberant sound field; and “I’m still the Same” by Bonnie Bramlett, which I just love if only because of Bonnie’s sassy, brassy performance. It is also a wonderful audiophile class soulful jazz recording. I only wish that EAC could be used to make duplicate copies of SACDs as well. Of course with Sony’s copy protection implemented as part of the SACD protocol, it can’t. However, because I sometimes forget that I already own a particular SACD, or I receive a second copy as a gift, I do own three sets of duplicate SACDs. They are: “The Quintet” Jazz at Massey Hall, a 1953 recording of Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Charles Mingus, and Max Roach. Although the original recording was of course not done directly to DSD, the audio quality is quite good, and performance is outstanding. “Herb Pomeroy Big Band Jazz Live at Sandy’s” an SACD-only disc recorded by Mark Levinson using only two microphones on a Studer A80 with 1” tape at 30ips, then transferred directly to DSD. The ambient information within this recording is really amazing and life-like. “Mahler Symphony No. 6 in A minor” by the San Francisco Symphony and Michael Tilson Thomas, recorded live, direct to DSD, in September 2001 at Davies Symphony Hall, and produced by Telarc. I believe this to be a world class recording of the classical genre. For my non-head-to-head subjective listening I also used many other SACDs, too numerous to list here. First Impressions: When I first hooked up the NE, I had been listening continuously for more than a week to the SE, and therefore was quite accustomed to its sonic signature. I wanted to get a quick first impression of the NE even before its dielectrics were fully stabilized. I had been playing the Herb Pomeroy SACD extensively in the SE and put the second copy in the NE. I immediately noticed two things: First, the NE exhibited a bit more body—meaning that the lower mid-range and bass were more fully fleshed out. Secondly, and somewhat surprisingly, the high end seemed to lose a little bit of its “life.” It wasn’t drastic, but there was a noticeable reduction in the “air” and sparkle of cymbals, and trumpets seemed to lose just a bit of their spit. I thought that I should just let the player warm up for a while, and then check back for a direct head-to-head comparison later. Then, a few hours later, I realized that I hadn’t yet fully set up the player via its HDMI to video display connection. In my enthusiastic rush to listen, I forgot to enter the Setup screen and set the SACD processing to DSD, from its PCM default. From listening to the original BDP83 and the SE version, I greatly preferred keeping DSD in its native format processing. Turning this setting to DSD immediately restored the high frequency life that I was accustomed to. I then set the disc to repeat indefinitely, and waited a few days before making any direct head-to-head comparisons. Also, thanks to the information provided in this forum’s thread, I learned that I should not try to play any SACD with the player connected via HDMI to an active monitor. I was always puzzled why the player would skip back to the beginning of a track whenever I turned my display on. Doing so forced the Oppo player to PCM mode and restarted the music to the beginning of the track. So, all subsequent listening was done with the monitor off and the processing set to DSD. Subjective Head-to-Head Impressions:So, after a few days of warm-up, I began attempting to characterize the sounds from each player. As I indicated earlier, the most obvious difference I heard was that the NE seemed to have more body or warmth in the bass and lower midrange. The SE was somewhat leaner. But which one is correct? After listening to many different discs I came to prefer the NE because it seemed to present not just more warmth, but the feeling of greater harmonic integrity. This is difficult to describe, but for anyone who is familiar with live musical instruments such as a piano or guitar, you’ll probably understand what I mean. When a bass cord is struck, you expect that you’ll feel the fundamental and perhaps the second harmonic, with the higher harmonics presented in balance. I suppose someone with an already warm sounding system might prefer the SE’s lighter balance. But in my system, I thought the NE just sounded more harmonically accurate. Perhaps more importantly, when playing very complex bass passages, the NE was better able to delineate each instrument. Both the Mahler and U2 recordings were particularly illustrative of this trait. Although warmer in balance, the NE exhibited more composure and coherence when the music called for multipart bass lines. The second predominant characteristic I heard was the smoothness, or ease, with which the NE presented the music. I thought that the SE was already very good in this regard. Up until I heard the NE, I wouldn’t have expected a noticeable improvement in this area. My thought is that the SE got the digital part of this characteristic right, and the NE took it even further with the analog section. In my opinion, Alison Krauss’s voice comes very close to demonstrating an analogy to the crystal clarity of a bell. On lesser CD players, this characteristic can sometimes take on an over-bright quality. The original BDP83 was very good at presenting Alison’s voice in a very natural manner. The SE further improved the smoothness and articulateness of her voice. The NE takes another step forward by removing yet another veil from the recording while further softening any rough edges. I’ve heard Alison perform live on many occasions. The presentation from the NE is the closest I’ve heard any digital player present her voice. Dare I say; it’s very analog-like? The third characteristic I noticed was the precision with which the NE could recreate the sound stage. Again, this is an area where I thought the SE showed considerable improvement over the original BDP-83. And here the NE takes it to a higher degree of precision. In particular, the depth and width of the sound stage is in better focus. The optical analogy is fitting here. The NE seems to fine tune the focus so that the fields surrounding the instruments or voices are slightly better defined. It is easier to hear the layering of instruments from the front of the stage to the back. When I close my eyes and just listen. . . . . I can more easily imagine the musicians sitting right in front of me. The sound stage of the NE isn’t necessarily wider or deeper than the SE. It is just more tightly focused. Lastly, the NE seems better able to reproduce the textures in high frequency content like cymbal splashes and brushes. Together with the additional mid and high frequency smoothness, this ability to better highlight high frequency textures adds up a very convincing sonic illusion of “you are there.” Objective Head-to-Head Comparisons: After a few days of subjective un-blinded listening, I had formed an impression of the sound characteristics of each player. This series of listening test should prove whether I could reliably identify those characteristics I subjectively formed. So, I set out to perform a direct, blinded, head-to-head test in the most objective way I knew. The SE was connected to Input 1 on the Aesthetix Janus preamp, and the NE was connected to Input 2. All cables were identical. Both discs were identical. A thirty second A to B segment was selected from each of six discs to highlight specific sound characteristics. When switching between sources on the preamp, there is a quarter second silence as the output mutes. This muting also occurs when selecting the same input a second time. This aspect allows a type of single-blinded A-B-X comparison, with only the remote operator knowing whether the input source is the same, or has changed. Both of the players and the preamp are behind closed doors, preventing both the listener and the remote operator from seeing the preamp’s input indicator. An infrared repeater is located inside the cabinet to relay the remote commands. I tried this method first as the listener, unbeknownst to me whether the operator selected the same or different input after each 30 second selection. As it turns out, the operator didn’t always know if the input selection changed either! We eventually learned that sometimes the Janus would mute for a quarter second, but not actually change inputs. Firmly pressing the remote button for a fraction of a second longer would ensure the change of inputs would occur. We finally decided that it would be prudent that after I announced my verdict of which player I thought I was listening, he would open the cabinet door and check the preamp’s display to ensure that it was set as he expected. After some trial and error, we got the procedure to the point where it was reliable. We repeated this switched listening for a few hours with most of the discs I previously listed. Unfortunately, by that time we were finished, we were both stressed and aggravated, and weren’t really enjoying the process at all. Although my guesses at identifying each player were about 70% correct, the entire process induced tremendous “aural strain.” I swear that my ear drums and brain hurt! This wasn’t pain caused by a defect in the players, but apparently by the process itself. This was not the result that I usually experience while listening to music for enjoyment. For the remainder of the time I had the NE in my possession, I listened un-blinded, relaxed, subjectively, all the while enjoying the music. Although I am still sitting on the fence concerning the validity of double-blind listening tests, I know that it is not how I usually listen to music. It was not very enjoyable even though it provided some confidence in supporting my subjective results, albeit with only a C- grade. The very act of trying to analyze and choose seemed to reduce my hearing acuity. I couldn’t fully synthesize the experience. I had thought that the differences I heard when subjectively listening to the two players were pronounced enough for me to blindly identify the correct player every time. Perhaps I just don’t perform well under pressure. Or perhaps intellectual analysis occurs in a different part of the brain from where musical enjoyment and insight reside. Referring back to the two books I mentioned may provide some perspective. Specifically, the hypothesis is that “The left hemisphere handles logic, sequence, literalness, and analysis. The right hemisphere takes care of synthesis, emotional expression, context, and big picture”. {1} Whereas I don’t pretend to understand enough about the human mind to be sure, it seems to me that listening to music, when at its most fulfilling, is predominately a right brain activity. Conclusions: The NuForce upgrade of the Oppo BDP-83SE produces a similar overall audible degree of improvement as the upgrade from the regular BDP-83 to the SE version. It is a worthwhile refinement of the SE’s originally competent platform. I would imagine that further improvements are possible, but perhaps at a much higher cost, and with progressively diminishing returns. Others involved in making modifications could provide a better basis for that decision. For me, the $396 upgrade price over the SE is money well spent, as I have paid more for interconnects or power cables with less overall sonic impact. As I indicated in one of my earlier posts, I initially purchased the original BDP-83 to serve primarily as a Blu-ray player which could also serve as a temporary universal audio player. The SE upgrade caused me to reconsider the temporary aspect of that intention. With the NE upgrade I believe I can comfortably live with this player for a very long time. Although I still haven’t been able to directly compare the NE to the best mid-priced CD player I previously heard—the Cambridge Audio 840C--if I can trust my aural memory I’d say the NuForce is smoother and more refined in its soundstage presentation, and about equal in bass impact, balance, and control. This just speaks to CD playback. With the additional superior high resolution playback capabilities of SACD, DVD-Audio, and Blu-ray discs, the NuForce Edition more than one-ups the competition in the $1200 to $2000 disc player range. Footnote: {1.} Pink, Daniel H., A Whole New Mind (The Berkley Publishing Group, 2005,2006)

12-15-09, 11:33 AM	#1840 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Perpendicular Signal Initiator AVS CLUB MEMBER Join Date: May 2008 Location: Newbury Park, CA Posts: 1,246	I still trust Ric's impressions and he does have a right to speak his mind like everyone else here. It is that person's right to do so, whether you like what people have to say and/or believe it about your product, or not. Just like I and others have a right to their opinion regarding Ric and other modders. Personally, I have not heard or even seen a BDP-83 SE, NE or any of Rics 83 mods. So, until I do, I will reserve my comments about one mod or upgrade being better than the other, as I and others have that right too. __________________ May all of my fellow AVS Forum associates have a wonderful day! Last edited by Perpendicular; 12-15-09 at 12:26 PM.. Reason: spelling

12-15-09, 01:55 PM	#1850 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Ric Schultz Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 80	clarity There are different levels of expertise in all fields. Go to the Ayre thread and ask Charles Hansen if he would use 3 twenty five cent integrated circuits in series to power a very critical analog supply for the DAC. Then ask him if he would use steel leaded very inexpensive power supply caps that sound hard and use 1 cent ceramic bypass caps right on the DAC chip. He would have a giggle. From his standpoint and mine.....this is abysmal. He uses discrete zero feedback regulators, really good electroylic caps and film caps. Of course, his products not only sound better but are very expensive. What I can do is give you the same kind of expertise but at a seriously lower price(price of components plus $50 an hour and 30 years of tweaking experience). There are those that are offended when you mention another company and tell it like it is. There is kind of an unwritten code in high end audio that as a manufacturer you should never mention another company or compare your products to theirs. This is not true in other fields.....look at the car ads.....our car gets blah blah, there's does not. The only difference is that there is nothing in high end audio that is very objective. I could tell you my analog power supply to the DAC using a highly modified discrete regulator with polyproplyne film caps has higher horsepower that is measureable.....but I cannot. However, I can tell you it sounds better....but then that is just my opinion. Obviously, everything I write is my opinion. There is nothing on my site that is an attack on Nuforce or anyone else. All I am doing is describing what I see and what I hear. I do have a Nuforce unit here so this is not some willy nilly thing. I can hear....and so can you. I know good value and you can know it too. There is no reason why I cannot compare on my site the relative value of my mods versus anyones. This is not immoral. It is clearly written on my site that I feel the Nuforce mod is fair. $50 worth of parts and 2 hours labor is what you generally get at a $400retail pricepoint. And their $400 mod does improve the stock SE.....no doubt. If I was saying my $200 mod to an SE sounds better than a $20,000 plus all out wacko dacko machine then I could see some eyes rolling for sure. But at the level we are talking.....who has the best tweaking skills? Who has been doing it longer? Who works for less money? Who has less overhead? Who makes things totally by hand? The only thing that matters is the results. My products stand on their own. Go to Audioreview and read the reviews of my Millennium DAC I made some years ago....and also my attenuators.....every review is a 5.....Do you think I paid all those people to write those reviews? There will always be those that are cynical and will believe that I am just out to make a buck and have no idea of what I am doing. I am an enthusiast first. I love tweaking. I love improving things and giving incredible value to my customers.....so that they can enjoy music and life more. I will try and stay off this site unless there is something else to clear up. My products speak for themselves.

12-15-09, 02:06 PM	#1852 \| Link
Ric Schultz Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 80	re new thread Yes, we could start another thread on Oppo mods. Why this is here is that the Nuforce version is just a mod. So, if the Nuforce thang can be discussed here than so can anything else. A thread for Oppo mods would be great. This would allow all the mod companies to chime in when they felt the need to explain something not stated clearly. You have to realize that the Oppo represents a new level of product. They have created a MONSTER!!!! The public likes the fact that it does so much, so well and for so little. And the more serious enthusiasts like the fact that it can be modded for some serious way out there sound and still have all the functionality on top. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Usually there is a one year run on modding a machine....then something else comes along and you start modding that.....I just don't see that happening here. We are going to be modding these things for a few years. And as we play with them more they will just get better and better. Horray for Oppo. Horray for us all. Here is a partial list of the people modding Oppos: EVS RAM Asi-tek Modwright VSI...Allen Wright There maybe more.....let us know.

12-14-09, 11:24 PM	#1832 \| Link
salmonsc Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 149	Yeah - & no offence - but that's a little banal. Obviously SQ depends on a great deal of things. But the reason we mod is b/c we believe some components are more important that others - no?

12-15-09, 05:03 AM	#1835 \| Link
nuforce-jason New Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 14	Ric has been bashing his "competition" since SE and NE came out. First he used derogatory terms to trash Oppo's parts, after a stern warning from Oppo, the posting was removed. Nuforce continues to be his target on his website going on and on about the NE couldn't sound as good as his mod, the Nuforce mod consisted of only a few swapped parts etc. We prefer to take the high ground and not get into any argument. The ultimate judge is the customer. We believe that there is no need to disparage another company to earn our business. In our brief history since 2005, we have never talk down on any competitors. We let reviewers and customers be the judge. You can tell people how great your work is, but hey, trashing competitor is not cool. Similarly, is it cool for Nuforce to bring out our high price lawyer and drag a small competitor to court to shut him up? Off course not. But I feel that I have to say something about our NE mod. NE is not an after thought or over the weekend mod. Nuforce has access to SE board circuit and we have been involved in evaluating the SE sound for many months before the release. Our modification is not a trial and error or "lets swap out this parts and see if it sound good". There are more than 30 changes to the SE board that we have to setup a production line to do the mod. A lot of work has been invested in studying the circuit and carefully compare NE sound versus reference quality CD player to ensure that customers will get a world class player. We have built a reputation of providing exceptional quality products (from $49 earphones to $5000/pair mono amp) with rave reviewers by customers. The OPPO BDP-83SE Nuforce Edition is no different. Jason

12-15-09, 05:26 AM	#1836 \| Link
Highlander_AVS Advanced Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 738	Thanks Jason Anyway, imho, this always happens because there's is a space in mods due isn't out a machine with ALL the Extreme improvements as I suggested you via PM .... You as NuForce have the knowledge, the structure and the possibility to do the Best Machine Ever shuting up the mouth to all competitors if you'll planed it or want it to do, realizing a product that can compete with 20k mrsp devices Think at that ... there's a market and space even for this My last 2 cents

12-15-09, 06:29 AM	#1837 \| Link
Techlord AVS Special Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Orange County, Ca Posts: 1,165	Nice to hear from you again Jason, I understand it takes a lot of R&D to design and implement design changes in a circuit board such as your NuForce Edition version of the Oppo BDP-83. If the SE does what I think it does I will be seriously considering the NuForce Edition. From what one of our members have been saying about it, he really enjoys listening to its 2ch stereo whether it be movies or music! I was so impressed with your NE circuit board I saved the picture and put it on as my desktop background.

12-15-09, 08:50 AM	#1838 \| Link
EyeintheSky New Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 11	Well, my SE arrives today according to FEDEX. Can't wait. It's coming up the driveway this very moment!! Gotta get the door. . .

12-15-09, 11:58 AM	#1841 \| Link
Denophile Master Underachiever Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,297	sweet, satiating, and forthright review robJK!!!

12-15-09, 12:52 PM	#1846 \| Link
Highlander_AVS Advanced Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 738	@Stimby Sorry, I don't think it's so easy as you made .... Surely the things must be eared .. Anyway, keep in mind that even with the direct ESS support, the best experience and engneers over the world, a Company at last could "loose the train" due to Price Point ... So, some things are optimized in that direction leaving and forgot about esoteric that could cost too much and didn't assure anyway big sales due to price increase for this way ... This is where GOOD and Honest Mod. can supply their knowledge and competence, studing and suggest solutions where price isn't an issue and extreme performance and results is the Target

12-15-09, 01:46 PM	#1849 \| Link
BigHat Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Arlington, VA 22204 Posts: 296	Am I alone in thinking it's a pretty good time to start a separate thread (BDP-83SE Mods?) where the modification companies and their advocates can go argue with each other to their heart's content and spare the rest of us? This is taking an ugly turn.

12-15-09, 02:21 PM	#1853 \| Link
Extremephono Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 82	Can Ric explain why MBL and ASR Emitter used NE5532 or TL072? Those $0.25 op-amps in a $20K machine, and nobody complained that they sounded lean or opaque. Macintosh used the ESS Sabre DAC with 5532 in their $6000 CDP as well. Can they not afford a more expensive opamp? If we check out brands like 47lab, you probably would comment that the parts look like cheap chinese made components, but the sound is nothing but. I think the design plays very important key, yes, to many casual consumer, discrete output stage sounds sexy. However, how would one match transistors to as tight a tolerance as laser-trimmed op-amps? How do we deal with DC-offset, and the necessary evil of capacitors in the signal path (yes, throw money and buy a Jensen oil cap, for $80 each, and then would a $80 capacitor along the signal path sounding better than no capacitor? Discrete transistors are notorious in terms of their gain HFE consistency both in gain and gain vs. frequency - no 2 transistors are alike. That's why we have op-amps that are internally compensated to become a linear device.

12-15-09, 02:24 PM	#1854 \| Link
sbjork Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 98	Stimby: Fair questions. Not particularly popular ones with some people around here, but fair nonetheless.

12-15-09, 02:27 PM	#1856 \| Link
salmonsc Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 149	+1! I think a thread for Oppo mods would be a good idea - I'm really interested in the potential of mods but they have led us a little OT in this thread.