**The Ultimate Rainbow Discussion Thread**

[Kysersose]

The Ultimate Rainbow Discussion Thread

Please post all of your R A I N B O W thoughts and questions related to DLP projectors in this thread and this thread ONLY!

All new threads discussing R A I N B O W S will be deleted so please post all of your questions and opinions here and here only!

The regular rules of the forum apply, any post that breaks the rules will be deleted.

For some great information right off the bat you can try this X1 Rainbow Thread

Thanks for cooperating and don't forget to keep it clean.

Kysersose

[simmike]

I just did a search in this group for the word "rainbow." Only one other thread in the first page of search results, besides this new one, had the word rainbow in the title. (There were plenty of X1 threads though.)

Giving rainbows it's own official thread blows out of proportion a very minor annoyance for most people. I just hope it isn't a sticky thread because I would hate to see the word "rainbow" everytime I opened the under $3500 group.

In the interest of fairness I hope we have a dedicated sticky thread related specifically to premature LCD panel failure.

[Kysersose]

You don't get to see how many threads we delete and close on a daily basis. I own an LT240K and have no problems with rainbows.
IMHO "Rainbows" are blown WAY out of proportion in this forum.
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

Just look at it this way... this is the only place to talk about rainbows from now on. If you don't want to read about rainbows then this should be the only thread that you have to avoid. We're not picking on DLP, we're just trying to avoid multiple rainbow threads day after day.

[Kysersose]

EDIT: It won't be a "sticky" forever.
Just until the point gets across.

[Cyrano]

I can see what simmike is saying but when I first saw this sticky I felt it was a good idea. I own an X1 and see most movies without ever seeing a rainbow. On the rare occasion I see one it is nothing. I have not had anyone mention seeing one who has viewed my set up. None of them read AVSFORUM. I can make my self see a rainbow effect if the visual circumstances are right in a projected image. I just don't do that. And I don't react if I do see one. The reaction and the searching bring them forth. It's like an audiophile listening for that one bad (and rare) slight audible imperfect sound in an otherwise perfect sound system.
Sometimes you've got to look through the screen to see the movie.
My PJ has improved a lot since I first got it. Some of the improvements were in the hardware and software. Some weren't.

[rickster904]

Yes, this has been ARGUED about too much. For people that don't see it, it's overblown. For people that see it, it's not. It's a personal experience. There is nothing to argue and get upset about. Just ignore the posts and it will drop out of sight even before the mods can spot and delete them.

There are also many posts that discuss possible remedies. Just do a search. Try different setups. Don't throw in the towel the moment you see rainbows for the first time.

We MAY see more LCD panel failures in one or two years. Or we may not. We don't know. The nature of the two 'issues' are quite different. Don't make this DLP vs LCD. Someone has already pointed out a $80 part replacement solution (or hopefully a $200-$300 service solution). So if we're lucky that our bulb last at least 2000 hours, we can save some money and get a qualified technician to change the part. And whoever manages to change the panel polarizer himself and not screw up his/her pj will definitely get saluted by fellow forum members.

Enough of my ranting. NEXT!

[bosng]

i went to an electronics show with a couple of friends and we were watching "blackhawk down" (i think) on a dlp projector. after a minute i thought to myself---hey not too shabby. my friends had sour faces because they saw rainbows and i said "what do you mean" the explained it to me and suddenly i saw it everywhere. if you know how to look==you will see them. the thing i'm not sure about is if you just give it time--will you eventually "teach yourself how to see them?" sadly i'll never know.
can anyone shed some light on this? (no pun intended)

[majozx3]

Originally posted by simmike
I just did a search in this group for the word "rainbow." Only one other thread in the first page of search results, besides this new one, had the word rainbow in the title. (There were plenty of X1 threads though.)

Giving rainbows it's own official thread blows out of proportion a very minor annoyance for most people. I just hope it isn't a sticky thread because I would hate to see the word "rainbow" everytime I opened the under $3500 group.

In the interest of fairness I hope we have a dedicated sticky thread related specifically to premature LCD panel failure.

Wow, does someone have an inferiority complex!
I will deal with the LCD panel failure when and if it comes. I can deal with the slightly less contrast my Z2 provides over a great DLP.
What I cannot and will not accept is rainbows CONSTANTLY ruining my viewing experience.
I have seen rainbows from the first second I laid my eyes on a (good) DLP projector (the Dwin Transvision back a few years ago at AVS in Rochester).
I was really hoping that that would be my first projector. Sadly I could not live with rainbows. They are VERY real to me. My wife could not see them, but they bothered me too much to accept them. I will admit my eyes dart around when I watch movies. That's how I use my eyes all the time. Because of this life time habit (that contributes to my great eye sight btw,) I cannot just stop my eyes from moving around, nor do I want to.
Maybe soon we'll have a 8x speed color wheel that will finally let me enjoy an otherwise great picture. Until then my new not too bad looking Z2 will do.
Zed

[RandyVS]

I had an X1 demo at my house over Thanksgiving, as I wanted to see if I had any trouble with rainbows before purchasing one. I did not see rainbows, even when I tried. More than 20 people saw different movies over the long weekend (Shrek, TTT, North by Northwest), and none said anything about seeing rainbows. (I did not ask if anyone saw them, but I have the kind of family that would say "what the $&#* are all those flashes/colors/lightspots", etc. if they saw something that looked wierd.) Mostly comments about how god the image was for under a grand.

I have to agree that the rainbow issue is one that is VERY case by case, and anyone contemplating an X1 or any other DLP get a demo to see what, if any, effect it has on you.

[Dean Martin]

IMHO "Rainbows" are blown WAY out of proportion in this forum.
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

I just leapt out of my chair and gave you a standing ovation. Here, here!
This is the best post I have read on this forum in a month.

Let it be known that I own two DLP based displays and no one gets sick, starts vomiting, head spins or anything else looking at these devices.
I BELIEVE people ARE distracted by them, the FEW that DO see them but I am starting to think there is some Anti-DLP stuff going on to scare people away from these displays.
Let it also be known that there is a number of people that ALMOST passed on DLP displays because of lack of information. THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE is to try out a display for YOURSELVES.

Some displays have slower color wheels and seeing the individual colors is more likely than a faster color wheel. I own teo diferent speed color wheel displays and see no rainbows. My guests don't see them, my family doesn't see them.

I REALIZE some of you have seen them so I don't want to be flamed.

There's also the factor that people that DID see colors initially STOPPED seeing them after a couple weeks. Try it and give it some time.

[David777]

Hopefully TI will introduce their SCR wheel sometime in the near future. Then maybe we won't have to have any threads about rainbows.

Does any one know if TI is close to bringing it to reality or did it get thrown on the back burner?

[jayw]

Originally posted by Dean Martin

Let it be known that I own two DLP based displays and no one gets sick, starts vomiting, head spins...

Man, I hate it when that happens!

Folks, as has been said before, buy one with a good return policy, get a loaner, go to a friends house or whatever but don't rule out the X1 or any other DLP-based device based upon RFE (rainbow fear effect). RFE, yep that one could catch on.

JayW
A Happy X1 Owner with no vomiting, head-spinning, rainbow-seeing friends or family...

[Shrouder]

I for one am glad there are rainbow discussions here. If I had not known about them, I would not have been "forewarned" about them when I demo'ed an X1 recently. Since I did see flashes and distracting colors while viewing the picture, and especially when I turned my head to talk to the salesman, I was glad to know what I was experiencing. If I had not known about the effect, and bought the projector thinking I just had tired eyes that day, it would have been a mistake because YES, the DLP 2x images do tire my eyes and distract me.

LCD has more screen door problems, imo, but is still the choice for me because the rainbow effect drives me bonkers.


IMO - the X1 is a great projector with many happy owners, but do yourself a favor and make sure you do a live demo or buy from a place with a liberal return policy just in case you do find the rainbows bothersome.

[Cyrano]

Since I did see flashes and distracting colors while viewing the picture, and especially when I turned my head to talk to the salesman, I was glad to know what I was experiencing.

To those who may be interested in a DLP PJ: Watch an entire movie without reacting to or looking for these rainbows. I saw them, too, in a hi-end A/V store.
We have used our X1 since July and have logged 400 hours. No one who has viewed it has mentioned rainbows. When I have pointed them out I am aware that the person really didn't need to be alerted to looking for distracting visuals on the screen. They see more after that. If I persist they may even eventually become a videophile but I stop short of that. Better they just remain unaware of technical concerns and watch the movie.
It's good to get real intense about creating an excellent HT but then it's good to just be in the audience.

Rainbows go away and their fleeting and rare reminders are nothing to me now. But when I purchased my X1 the store manager had to sign my receipt asserting that there would be no restocking fee. I was sure the X1 would be returned. It wasn't

[Psych1]

OK. I'll say it here. Rainbows don't bother me but they are there if that is what you are looking for. They may go away when you watch the movie instead. That is the problem with the demo.

It is true that some are more bothered by them and at different times you will see more of them and that screen size and settings matter and that some films seem to have more of them. The other night I watched "Castaway" with Tom Hanks and they were all over the place. Not a clue why - everything else was the same - except that it was me being sensitive to them - no one else said a word about them, and maybe didn't even see them, but I haven't sent my guests to this forum yet. They just ask me which projector they should buy and I tell them to get the X1.

Also. sometimes I "think" I see a quick rainbow at the CineMax or when watching TV now. What is that about? And Darin said he went from DLP to LCD and then saw them when he went back to DLP. What is that?

I agree that this topic is way overblown, and don't pass up on the X1 because of it, but there is something there and I have often learned something new and interesting from the different RB threads. We ought to pull up some of the old ones where we had opthomologists and vision engineers arguing/informing/sharing. It is an interesting topic.

[Alan Wong]

Thanks everyone for your informative info. I think it may have been me who got this sticky thread started as I asked the question a few days ago. Some good responses in that thread and some a bit rude but the replies were as expected in a large public forum such as this one.

I brought home an X1 from Best Buy today and watched Matrix Reloaded on a 75" wall. I saw quite a bit of rainbows in the first 45 minutes and decided this was not to be my first PJ I own.

I'm glad that rainbows are discussed because I would have thought it was the DVD or something having to do with ALL projectors, as I've never owned one before and without this forum, I may have been turned away for good. My wife didn't see any rainbows though, even though I told her what to look for. I guess it really does just come down to some people being able to notice this stuff and other not. My wife is surprised can I read a book in the car because she gets sick when she tries. Guess we all have different sensitivity levels for this stuff. I really thank all of the knowledgable discussion in this forum.

Back to my original question in the thread earlier this week. If I see rainbows on the X1, which I did, what's the next step up PJ to rid them? Is it the NEC 240K? That's within my budget. But if people say it has to be at least an HT1000, I'll have to heavily lean towards LCD for my budget of staying less than $3K at all cost.

I saw the Sharp PG-A10X which competes in the price range of the X1 and liked it quite a bit. It may just be the fact that it's the first PJ I've watched in my house. I'm glad there are some choices in the $1K range.

Thanks all for making me a PJ junkie now,
Alan

[nicko]

Nice one Psych1.

I also think is more of a mental thing. I saw the X1 (actually the 4800), the other day, with my wife, in a high-end dealer, and the only thing I was loocking for were for those nasty things.
In a demo such as this, we always want to see the worst things we can probably buy (specially if you spend a lot of time in this forums ), and don't really see the film, or the really cool image it can provide.

The wife loved it. Of course I didn't mentioned the rainbow. I slightly start to explain her... but then I realized how ridiculous I was being. And she didn't even care. Her opinion (sometimes) matters most than others. Not only because she's my wife, but because she is a 'tech' free mind. She will only see what she's liking. In opposition of my way of seeing things. Is very important this kind of input.
And it isn't entirely passive:
For example: she remind me, out of the blue, how great the image was, even better than the projector we used to watch, at my brother's.
He have a Panasonic AE300! And she were right! And add this 'it hasn't the same resolution, but overall is better'. 'Resolution'... What were you smoking? Are you reading the same stuff I am!?

In conclusion, I agree this is more of a non-issue, or a issue for us guys that over study this problems, always seeking the best, and for that piking and exaggerating with the worst. Even when you probably didn't notice them, if you were never told about!

AB

[nicko]

But since we'll probably wont change, I think it would be nice that, in this thread, we talk about all the tweaks to minimize them.
I can always see threads talking about 'I can see them' or 'I can't', but few that talk how to get rive of them.
I'm going to buy the X1. I have no doubt about it now. But, as everything, I would like it to give me the better image I can provide.
How does the 'rainbow effect' is affected with this factors:

Bigger/smaller image versus seating distance;
Ambient light;
Screen - white v gray;
filters;
contrast/brightness/color...;
others

AB

[JeffStickney]

The problem of rainbow-thread-clutter had already been adressed when the old threads had been merged together into one "official x1-rainbow thread."

When you deleted that thread to start agian from scratch, you threw away dozens of useful rainbow-reduction tips.

[superflysocal]

no kidding, I was hoping this thread would include remedies for rainbow, not just "I see it" or "i don't see it".

[technut Canada]

Originally posted by JeffStickney
The problem of rainbow-thread-clutter had already been adressed when the old threads had been merged together into one "official x1-rainbow thread."

When you deleted that thread to start agian from scratch, you threw away dozens of useful rainbow-reduction tips.

I do like the idea of having this more generic rainbow thread instead of one that is specific to the X1, since rainbows are not specific to the X1.

The old "Official" X1 thread still exists here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=324164

But I agree this new thread added some confusion. Perhaps it would make sense to merge these threads rather than have TWO Official threads?

[Kysersose]

I do like the idea of having this more generic rainbow thread instead of one that is specific to the X1, since rainbows are not specific to the X1.

Exactly!

I will add a link to the X1 thread in the opening post but I don't think I'll merge them just yet.

[stevethewheel]

Originally posted by simmike

Giving rainbows it's own official thread blows out of proportion a very minor annoyance for most people. I just hope it isn't a sticky thread because I would hate to see the word "rainbow" everytime I opened the under $3500 group.

I think that having a thread where folks who don't see / are not bothered by rainbows (I assume you don't have a problem with them) can post is a great idea.

Some see 'em. Most don't. Having this thread will keep rainbows from becoming a distraction (pun intended) in other threads.

Our official home statistics during X1 demo: 3 didn't. 1 did. 1 got a headache but no idea why - could also be from watching a bright screen in an otherwise dark room.

[AnthonyP]

I think this thread is a good idea

[AnthonyP]

IMHO "Rainbows" are blown WAY out of proportion in this forum.
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

that is like saying doctors make people sick since all the people at his office are sick

people that don't come here do see them, they just don't know to call them rainbows

[Kysersose]

people that don't come here do see them, they just don't know to call them rainbows

I've had family, friends, co-workers & guests that total over 50 people now. All of them have watched numerous movies (and sporting events) in my HT, not one of them have ever seen a rainbow or even begun to understand what one is when asked. Whenever I have AVS members over... there's always a couple of them who see them. Might it be that they read about them on this forum and instinctively look for them? Maybe.

I do know that some people can spot them without even knowing about them, It's just that I've yet to meet such a person.

For what it's worth... when I bought my first DLP a few years back I had a lot of trouble finding rainbows. But with a little help from this forum... I figured out how to find them. Then I went back to watching the movie (not looking for rainbows) and they went away in a heartbeat.

I'm still waiting for a non AVS'er to walk in my house and say... "what the hell was that!?" If it turns out to be 1 in a hundred... I can live with that.

[edwardr132]

I have non AVS' members come over and all have been shell shocked in terms of how good the picture is on the X1. All of them are in disbelief that you can have such a huge/great picture for so little money. I invite two AVS members over who of course run the "flying fingures in your face method" and see them immediately. They both own LCD projectors and need to justify it in their own minds......

[Alan Wong]

Kysersose, I think you may be right. If a person doesn't know it's there, he won't notice it but once he learns what to look for, it's real noticeable.

This may be like those funky squiggly prints at malls a decade ago with the 3D image hidden in it. You only saw it when you defocused the picture and looked past it. It took me awhile to notice it but then when I learned how to see the picture, it became real easy. Same can be said about those guide wires in Trinitron CRTs. Before someone pointed them out to me, I never noticed but now I always see them.

Not sure if one has to be trained to see these rainbows. After explaining to my wife what to look for, she still hasn't seen a single rainbow after viewing a few movies. She thinks the X1 I brought home produces an awesome picture. She agrees that the Sony HS20 produces a better picture but it's not 3x better so, why isn't the Sony $1500? I don't know how to argue against that.


Alan

[Imageek2]

Originally posted by Kysersose
I'm still waiting for a non AVS'er to walk in my house and say... "what the hell was that!?" If it turns out to be 1 in a hundred... I can live with that.

I know I haven't been to your house , but I am one of the people that happened to. Long before I became a member here and before I had ever heard of a DLP television I was walking by the TV display area at my local Fry's. I took a quick look at one of the sets on display and literally said to my friends "What the hell was that?" I had seen a rainbow. My friends didn't see it and of course thought I was nuts, and even I wasn't sure as I didn't see any more while I was looking at the set. It took me finding my way here to figure out what it was I had seen.

[Grandarf]

I went to see an X1 demo this weekend, in about 30 minutes, TRYING to see rainbows, I saw none...