Movies that use 7.1 surround?

[DavidML3]

Im sure there are plenty of threads on this but since the search engine wont allow me to search "7.1" then I need to post a thread. Maybe a huge collaboration of this type of info should be stickied somewhere.

Are there any programs, movies, or music that allow 7.1 audio?

[4DHD]

I'm not sure about 7.1 but DTS-ES discrete is 6.1 That's about as good as it gets.
Check out this link.
http://www.dts.com/consumer/

[ekb]

There is no such thing as a 7.1 source for the consumer. 2.0, 5.1 and 6.1 needs to be proccessed by DD PL IIx or Logic 7 to produce 7.1 channels.

Ed

[DavidML3]

Originally Posted by ekb

There is no such thing as a 7.1 source for the consumer. 2.0, 5.1 and 6.1 needs to be proccessed by DD PL IIx or Logic 7 to produce 7.1 channels.

Ed

Im sorry but this is a tad too technical for me. What are you saying? How can I get the most out of my 7.1 receiver with movies?

[thecrazykevy]

Originally Posted by DavidML3

Im sorry but this is a tad too technical for me. What are you saying? How can I get the most out of my 7.1 receiver with movies?

Translation: There is no discrete 7.1 movies or music. However, there are some 6.1 movies. Your receiver can make the 7th channel from 6.1 sources. It might just duplicate the sound from the 6th channel, the rear back/center speaker its usually called. Your receiver can also produce 7.1 audio from 5.1 sources. It takes the sound from the left surround and right surround speakers to make the 6th and 7th channel.

Or just read this: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...logic_IIx.html

[avscienceforurm]

Originally Posted by thecrazykevy

Translation: There is no discrete 7.1 movies or music. However, there are some 6.1 movies. Your receiver can make the 7th channel from 6.1 sources. It might just duplicate the sound from the 6th channel, the rear back/center speaker its usually called. Your receiver can also produce 7.1 audio from 5.1 sources. It takes the sound from the left surround and right surround speakers to make the 6th and 7th channel.

Or just read this: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...logic_IIx.html

Interesting. So 7.1 is mostly hype? I have a 6.1 channel receiver and try to watch my DVDs in DTS (5.1) mode, as I have found the most pleasing audio effects in that mode with my setup. I don't have a rear speaker set up for 6.1 mode yet, but probably will end up mounting a small satellite on my wall behind my chair eventually. The speaker would actually be more above my head rather than behind it, given the configuration of the room my HT is in.

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by avscienceforurm

So 7.1 is mostly hype?

Nope, mostly science.

Sanjay

[DavidML3]

Originally Posted by thecrazykevy

Translation: There is no discrete 7.1 movies or music. However, there are some 6.1 movies. Your receiver can make the 7th channel from 6.1 sources. It might just duplicate the sound from the 6th channel, the rear back/center speaker its usually called. Your receiver can also produce 7.1 audio from 5.1 sources. It takes the sound from the left surround and right surround speakers to make the 6th and 7th channel.

Or just read this: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...logic_IIx.html

Ok thanks for that bit of info. So to answer my initial question Is there a list of movies that use 6.1 audio?

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by DavidML3

Is there a list of movies that use 6.1 audio?

A third surround channel (called the surround-back channel) is used by 3 formats: Dolby Digital EX, DTS ES, DTS ES Discrete 6.1.

A thorough and well updated list of DVDs (broken down by all three formats) can be found here.

Even though the surround-back channel is mono, Dolby and DTS and THX all recommend that it be played back through 2 speakers behind you.

Sanjay

[Art Sonneborn]

I think the question still hasn't ben answered. Since there is no discrete left and right rear surround software and 6.1 is the highest number of discrete channels, in reality 7.1 IS mostly hype IMO.

Art

[ekb]

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn

I think the question still hasn't ben answered. Since there is no discrete left and right rear surround software and 6.1 is the highest number of discrete channels, in reality 7.1 IS mostly hype IMO.

Art

Maybe this is still not clear. But DD PLIIx and Logic 7 are two methods that take either 2.0, 5.0, 5.1, 6.0 or 6.1 sources and turn them into 7.1 or 7.0 (ie the 2 rear surround channels are different, not dual mono). The effect is as good as if it was a 7.1 discrete source IMO.

Ed

[Kevin12586]

I don't believe that 7.1 is hype as I have gotten more enjoyment from my 7.1 system then from my 5.1 system.

Also, just because a DVD isn't DD EX or DTS 6.1, if you apply PLIIx to the source (DVD) your receiver will give you the impression of 7 channels in a 7.1 setup.

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn

Since there is no discrete left and right rear surround software and 6.1 is the highest number of discrete channels, in reality 7.1 IS mostly hype IMO.

In reality, there is no hype involved. 7.1 systems claim they deliver independent signals to each of the 7 main speakers, and in fact that is exactly what they do.

You're confusing the number of discrete channels in the delivery media with the number of speakers used for playback. Historically, they've had very little to do with one another. For example: Dolby Surround soundtracks were 4 channels of sound, delivered on discrete 2-channel media and played back using at least 5 speakers. Notice that none of those numbers coincide.

Likewise, 7.1 pre-pros have been around for 20 years (Fosgate in 1986, Lexicon in 1988). That's a full 8 years before there was any discrete 5.1 material being delivered to consumers. Obviously 7.1-speaker set-ups were never designed with discrete multi-channel sources in mind, let alone discrete 7.1-channel soundtracks. The technologies behind those pre-pros have nothing to do with "hype" and everything to do with psychoacoustics.

The concept of mapping one discrete channel to one speaker is a recent development (roughly the last 12 years) and limited to those with little to no prior experience with surround sound. That concept (i.e., anything not discrete must be "hype") is as naive now as it was over two decades ago. Thankfully, most of the folks that have moved to 7.1 systems during the last 20 years never bought into that concept.

Sanjay

[4DHD]

Originally Posted by DavidML3

Ok thanks for that bit of info. So to answer my initial question Is there a list of movies that use 6.1 audio?

I guess you didn't click on the link I provided in my last post. Oherwise you would not be asking that question. So try THIS LINK. All you have to do is fill in the various pull downs.

http://www.dts.com/consumer/hometheater/dvd-titles.php

[Gary McCoy]

The information in this thread is out of date anyway. The Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD encoding used with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks are lossless encoders capable of delivering discrete 7.1 channel sound.

Unfortunately there are no consumer receivers that decode these formats as of yet. The workaround is to either use the analog outputs of the HD disk player, or to output eight channel Linear PCM over an HDMI interface to a digital surround receiver capable of playing LPCM format.

The majority of the HD movies available so far are 5.1 channel audio mixes. However we are just seeing some soundtracks released in 7.1 on the HD disks, then downmixed to 5.1 or 6.1 for the standard DVDs.

The bad news is even the new receiver you just bought will be obsoleted by receivers that offer Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding. I think we'll see those by Summer.

Gary

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

The Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD encoding used with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks are lossless encoders capable of delivering discrete 7.1 channel sound.

DTS-HD is a lossy codec, not lossless.

However we are just seeing some soundtracks released in 7.1 on the HD disks, then downmixed to 5.1 or 6.1 for the standard DVDs.

The one or two Blu-ray titles with 7.1 soundtracks have special mixes created specifically for home video. The 5.1/6.1 versions of those soundtracks are from the theatrical release, not downmixes of the 7.1 track.

The bad news is even the new receiver you just bought will be obsoleted by receivers that offer Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding.

All HD DVD soundtracks are authored in the 'advanced' mode, which mandates decoding in the player. When BD goes interactive, the same will be required of their soundtracks. With the decoders in upcoming receivers getting little use, current HDMI equipped models won't become obsolete anytime soon.

Sanjay

[Gary McCoy]

If you want 7.1 discrete channels, you will use a receiver with a DSP that supports the new formats. The problem with the player decoders is that even 7.1 receivers have 5.1 channel analog inputs, forcing one to blow off the extra pair of channels.

When using the player decoder the setup menu of the digital receiver is not used. This means that the speaker distance, speaker size, crossover frequency, etc. cannot be configured for the analog input, since all these features depend upon digital processing in the DSP of the receiver. As a consequence the BD and HD soundtracks lack the audio clues that one uses to locate sounds. I have yet to hear any BD or HD soundtracks which really compare to the regular DVD when it comes to a wide sound field with the ability to crisply locate the direction a sound is coming from. I don't see this situation changing, or the audio quality of the new disk formats equalling conventional DVD quality, until the new formats can be decoded in the receiver's DSP.

Gary

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

If you want 7.1 discrete channels, you will use a receiver with a DSP that supports the new formats.

No need because format decoding is done in the player. The receiver simply has to support multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

The problem with the player decoders is that even 7.1 receivers have 5.1 channel analog inputs, forcing one to blow off the extra pair of channels.

So transmit the decoded signal via HDMI instead of analogue connections.

When using the player decoder the setup menu of the digital receiver is not used.

Sure it is. The player only decodes (unpacks or decompresses) the encoded data. The receiver handles everything after that (bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, etc).

As a consequence the BD and HD soundtracks lack the audio clues that one uses to locate sounds. I have yet to hear any BD or HD soundtracks which really compare to the regular DVD when it comes to a wide sound field with the ability to crisply locate the direction a sound is coming from.

What 'audio clues to locate sound' are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

It's the same soundtrack. Nothing has changed but the resolution (and that too, for the better).

I don't see this situation changing, or the audio quality of the new disk formats equalling conventional DVD quality, until the new formats can be decoded in the receiver's DSP.

Decoding in the receiver is not going to happen any time soon (even when receivers have the decoding chips built in). Every HD DVD soundtrack has interactive capabilities, which require decoding in the player for live mixing of various content streams.

Sanjay

[Gary McCoy]

Bass management, time alighnment, surround processing, room correction, etc. are all digital processing functions that take place in the digital domain inside the receiver's DSP, but only if a digital input (SPDIF, TOSLINK, LPCM over HDMI) is used. Receivers do not digitize the analog inputs, the only sound "processing" for the analog inputs is simple volume/bass/treble control.

Only about 2% of the receivers installed today can accept linear PCM over HDMI. The other 98% are obsoleted by the new HD disks. Also while many such receivers can accept six LPCM channels over HDMI (i.e. 5.1 sound), I have never been able to hear one that can accept 8 channels or 7.1 sound.

Time alighnment is the primary problem. You use this receiver setup function to compensate for the varied distances from your ears to the different speakers. Without such alighnment the sounds cannot be correctly localized. There are also odd frequency response problems that arise from non-alighned sounds arriving at your ears simultaneously from two speakers, and phase cancellation occurring near your ears.

So there really is not an integrated solution that gives you 7.1 channels of discrete audio within a normal room. The only solution that gives you a correct 7.1 channel sound field from a new disk format today is a "circle surround" setup, where the speakers are arranged in a semi-anechoic circular room and each is the exact same distance from your ears. The only such listening room I know of was constructed and described by the editors of The Perfect Vision magazine. It is hardly a solution accessable to many, since it requires room construction.

I would gladly blow off every new feature on the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks simply to be able to play them the same way I play conventional DVDs today, using an optical or coaxial signal to a surround receiver. If SPDIF will truely not support that much bandwidth, then use more than one fiber or cable for the digital 8-channel sound with higher resolution than we have heard before.

Because the way things are now, the new disks sound inferior to conventional DVDs in every venue I've heard. The images are very very fine, but the audio which appears to have such promise has not yet demonstrated any audible superiority to me.

Gary

[thehun]

Bass management, time alighnment, surround processing, room correction, etc. are all digital processing functions that take place in the digital domain inside the receiver's DSP, but only if a digital input (SPDIF, TOSLINK, LPCM over HDMI) is used. Receivers do not digitize the analog inputs, the only sound "processing" for the analog inputs is simple volume/bass/treble control.

Where did you get that? Almost all receivers could digitize the 2ch analog inputs, and do apply all of it's digital features including BM TA. And quiet a few receivers digitize it's 6-8ch inputs as well, either as default, or an option.

Only about 2% of the receivers installed today can accept linear PCM over HDMI. The other 98% are obsoleted by the new HD disks. Also while many such receivers can accept six LPCM channels over HDMI (i.e. 5.1 sound), I have never been able to hear one that can accept 8 channels or 7.1 sound.

Denon 2807 for 1 I'm sure there are others.

I would gladly blow off every new feature on the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks simply to be able to play them the same way I play conventional DVDs today, using an optical or coaxial signal to a surround receiver. If SPDIF will truely not support that much bandwidth, then use more than one fiber or cable for the digital 8-channel sound with higher resolution than we have heard before.

Since HDMI can take care of that with 1 cable you proposition is hardly needed.

Because the way things are now, the new disks sound inferior to conventional DVDs in every venue I've heard. The images are very very fine, but the audio which appears to have such promise has not yet demonstrated any audible superiority to me.

Well that makes one of you.

[Josh Z]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

If you want 7.1 discrete channels, you will use a receiver with a DSP that supports the new formats. The problem with the player decoders is that even 7.1 receivers have 5.1 channel analog inputs, forcing one to blow off the extra pair of channels.

My 5 year-old Denon 3803 has 7.1 analog inputs.

I would gladly blow off every new feature on the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks simply to be able to play them the same way I play conventional DVDs today, using an optical or coaxial signal to a surround receiver.

All HD DVD players will downmix DD+ audio to full bit-rate DTS for output over the Toslink or coax outputs, allowing you to connect it the exact same way you connect DVD now.

Because the way things are now, the new disks sound inferior to conventional DVDs in every venue I've heard. The images are very very fine, but the audio which appears to have such promise has not yet demonstrated any audible superiority to me.

And how are things on the Bizarroworld these days?

[sdurani]

Josh and thehun addressed most of the misconceptions you posted. Rather than repeat what they said, I'll add my 2 cents to a couple of your points.

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

Also while many such receivers can accept six LPCM channels over HDMI (i.e. 5.1 sound), I have never been able to hear one that can accept 8 channels or 7.1 sound.

You don't have to spend a lot to hear one that accepts 8 channels of LPCM over HDMI (Onkyo 604 for under $400).

Time alighnment is the primary problem.

Not a problem. Even if your receiver cannot apply speaker delays to an incoming multi-channel analogue signal, every HD DVD and Blu-ray player has time alignment (and bass management) built in.

If SPDIF will truely not support that much bandwidth, then use more than one fiber or cable for the digital 8-channel sound with higher resolution than we have heard before.

If you're hoping that the industry will consider multi-S/PDIF connections, then give up now. It just ain't gonna happen, especially when they have a single connection (HDMI) that has the audio bandwidth needed AND transmits video AND (most important to them) overcomes the limited copy protection capabilities of S/PDIF.

Because the way things are now, the new disks sound inferior to conventional DVDs in every venue I've heard.

I haven't run into anyone else that's experienced the limitations you have. Every single time I've heard Blu-ray or HD DVD, the sound has been as good (if not better) than DVD.

Sanjay

[Gary McCoy]

So you believe the current audio situation with these HD disks will continue? It has all the elegance of an elephant wearing a tutu!

But YES I hang out in the high-end A/V stores a lot and even with all the the various implementations I have heard, all the 7.1 setups are flawed.

1) One local store has seven monoblock tube amps and a solid state powered sub. This sounds the best but he doesn't have a volume control (he has eight volume controls and no bass/treble control).

2) I've heard three high-end receivers that digitize the analog inputs. They all seem to lack the same resolution as conventional DVD, let alone the HD formats. I hear less dynamic range, a higher noise floor, and alterations in frequency response. This is entirely undertsandable, the output has gone through another generation of copy, (A/D followed by DSP followed by D/A) and it shows. Even the best consumer receiver is NOT comparable to good studio audio gear, this is a poor alternative, definately inferior to a good conventional DVD soundtrack.

3) Where I've heard the HD formats down-mixed to 5.1 DTS (only the Toshiba HD-A1 that I can remember) the sound did indeed approach conventional DVD quality. However now we have 7.1 soundtracks and this solution only gives 5.1 output. Not to mention a lossy 5.1 encoding of a 7.1 lossless source, at lower resolution.

If anybody knows of an HD audio scheme free of these flaws, detail it and I'll go find it and listen. I repeat, I HAVE LISTENED not just LOOKED. I love the HD image, I find the quaint interim sound schemes lacking.

If HDMI is the interface, so be it. I have such an input on my Westinghouse. It has some quirks. So where is the receiver that accepts 7.1 discrete sound/video over HDMI, then outputs 7.1 sound to the speakers with full setup options, and passes through 2.1 for the monitor over yet another HDMI cable? (The wife thinks the sound needs to come out of the TV in spite of all my efforts, so this option is needed when she listens alone.)

Gary

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

So you believe the current audio situation with these HD disks will continue?

If you mean decoding in the player, then yes: moving forward, that will be the norm. Even when HDMI 1.3 equipped receivers show up, you still won't be able to transmit HD DVD soundtrack in their native bitstream form for decoding in the receiver.

It has all the elegance of an elephant wearing a tutu!

Only because you don't understand it. For the rest of us, the solution is quite elegant: as newer formats and players come out, in-player decoding means that receivers only have to deal with an incoming PCM signal, thereby minimizing obsolecense of current HDMI equipped receivers (the opposite of what you believe).

Sanjay

[Gary McCoy]

OK, one final question, does 8-channel LPCM-over-HDMI compromise audio quality at all if the original format on the disk was Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD with 7.1 channels?

Gary

[ekb]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

OK, one final question, does 8-channel LPCM-over-HDMI compromise audio quality at all if the original format on the disk was Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD with 7.1 channels?

Absolutely not at all. The PCM is an uncompressed version of *exactly the same* information that is stored in a compressed format in Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD.

Ed

[Josh Z]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

But YES I hang out in the high-end A/V stores a lot

Well that would be your problem right there. You might as well have said you were hanging out at Voodoo Central, with all the crystal faith healers and snake oil salesmen.

[Gary McCoy]

Originally Posted by Josh Z

Well that would be your problem right there. You might as well have said you were hanging out at Voodoo Central, with all the crystal faith healers and snake oil salesmen.

While I understand your statement I don't fall victim to those folks. Being an EE helps wade through the bull. There is a lot of gear there that interests me that I can't afford, and some more you couldn't pay me to own.

But it is amusing to hear one of them bragging about how much better 99.9999% pure copper oxygen-free wires sound.

I've seen 1080p three-chip DLP and other things that are too pricey for me as yet. But these places and the major chain stores are great for setting the new bar for your next upgrade, and deciding how much to spend. I've had 1080p for a year on an LCD monitor, but I'm not yet ready to jump on a 1080p projector.

Gary

[thehun]

^^^

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by Gary McCoy

does 8-channel LPCM-over-HDMI compromise audio quality at all if the original format on the disk was Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD with 7.1 channels?

First let's clarify some nomenclature. Dolby and DTS have both introduced new audio codecs. The lossy ones are DD+ (Dolby Digital Plus) and DTS-HD (High Definition). The lossless codecs are Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA (Master Audio).

Think of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA as zipping a computer file to save space. None of the data is discarded, just packed more efficiently to take up less storage space. When you unzip the file, 100% of the data is still there, and you get a bit-for-bit copy of the original.

If you had a zipped document that you wanted to send me on disc, you would have two choices. You could unzip it on your computer before putting it on the disc. Or you could send it to me as a zipped file (would take up less space on the disc) and I could unzip it on my computer. Either way, I end up with the exact same document, down to the last letter.

Likewise, decoding (unpacking) a soundtrack in the player or in the receiver will yield the exact same results. It's not like high end receivers have a special secret version of TrueHD decoding reserved for them that cheap players aren't allowed to have. It's just format decoding. If certain audio data is flagged for the left front channel, then decoding in the worlds most expensive receiver won't place that data somehow "more" into the left front channel than decoding in the world's cheapest player.

Going back to the zipped document analogy. If you wanted to change anything in the document, from simple correction of spelling mistakes to complex re-formatting for a better look, you would first need to unzip that document. You wouldn't be able to manipulate it while it was still zipped.

Similarly, everything a receiver does to the soundtrack, upto and including D/A conversion, requires the soundtrack to be in uncompressed PCM form. In fact, when you send your receiver a DD or DTS bitstream, the first thing it does is decompress the soundtrack to linear PCM. Only then can it apply things like bass management, time alignment, etc.

Soundtracks on HD DVD (and eventually on Blu-ray, when it goes interactive) operate very differently than they do on DVD. With current DVDs, you need entirely separate soundtracks for things like foreign languages and filmmaker's commentary. This is actually a pretty wasteful approach.

With HD DVD, soundtracks can be authored in the 'Advanced' mode, which allows multiple content streams to be live-mixed (mixed in real time). You don't need another soundtrack for foreign languages. Just swap out the English centre channel stream with one of the foreign centre channel streams. You don't need another soundtrack for commentary. Just reduce the level of the main soundtrack and mix in the commentary stream. Same with button sounds and other interactive features, like picture-in-picture.

Just like editing the document requires unzipping the file first, doing any of this live-mixing to the soundtrack requires decoding it to linear PCM first. This is why it has to be done in the player. They're not going to transmit every option to your receiver, just one soundtrack. You choose what you want to hear, it is mixed in the player (i.e, the soundtrack you want to hear is literally built in real time inside the player) and transmitted as a final mix to your receiver.

Current HDMI allows 8 channels of 96/24 PCM to be transmitted (more than enough resolution for any soundtrack), but not the new codecs in their native form. When HDMI 1.3 arrives, it will allow the new codecs mentioned above to be transmitted in their native bitstream, but only if they were authored in 'Basic' mode (no interactivity). If the soundtrack was authored in Advanced mode, then it cannot be transmitted in undecoded form; decoding in the player is mandatory because of live mixing.

So far, all HD DVD soundtrack have been authored in Advanced mode. Which means nothing will change when new receivers arrive on the market. Despite having HDMI 1.3 transmission and decoders built into the receiver, decoding will still have to take place in the player.

Currently, Blu-ray discs are authored in Basic mode, since they haven't gotten interactivity yet. As soon as BD Java is up and working, they'll all be authored in Advanced mode too. At that point, what are the decoders in the receivers going to do? Decode the relatively few BD titles that were released before interactivity? Most of those titles will be re-issued anyway.

Personally, I'm glad that decoding is shifting to the player. I wish it had always been that way. Since receivers need the data in PCM form anyway, that's what every player should be outputting (irrespective of what format is used to store the data on the disc). As mentioned before, when new audio codecs and formats arrive, you'll have to buy a new player. But as long as the players keep outputting the audio in PCM form, current receivers will always remain compatible with anything that shows up in the future. How elegant is that!

Sanjay