Houston, TX - OTA

[bobchase]

Originally Posted by mikemikeb

As long as 11-1 and 11-3 point to the same exact piece of bandwidth, it's OK for now. So, have KHOU engineers redistributed old multicasting bandwidth to the HD channel? Does anybody have a virtual analyzer to figure it out?

P.S. Ursa, can you please update the #1 post in the thread to reflect KHOU and KPRC?

The PSIP table for KHOU shows only 11.1 being broadcast at a very high video rate of 17.2 mbs.

The PSIP table for KPRC shows 02.1 at a video rate of 13.95 mbs and 02.2 at a video rate of 2.81. This is nearly the same rate that KHCW & KUHT use for their HD main channel and SD sub-channel.

If your tuner, TV, or STB still shows the old sub-channels, try to do a manual delete for those channels. Manufacturers menu trees vary, so I can't be more specific on how to do it. Some of the devices only rescan for new RF channels and get persnickety about sub-channels.

Bob Chase
KHCW-TV

[JKohn]

KHOU is definitely using more bandwidth for the HD feed now. I use SageTV to record OTA, and it records in program stream format, stripping out the extra subchannels so by looking at filesizes I can get a pretty good idea of the actual bandwidth used for the HD channel. Tonights airing of CSI clocked in at 7.7GB, which is a good 2.5GB larger than what 1-hour shows on CBS were previously averaging and puts the average bitrate somewhere around 16mbs.

[mikemikeb]

Originally Posted by bobchase

The PSIP table for KHOU shows only 11.1 being broadcast at a very high video rate of 17.2 mbs.

Now let's hope that the bitrate stays that high until a new encoder's purchased, or after this year's Masters, or both

I wonder if the consistent and periodic breakups that some have experienced are gone?

Originally Posted by bobchase

The PSIP table for KPRC shows 02.1 at a video rate of 13.95 mbs and 02.2 at a video rate of 2.81.

I hope that the testing isn't completed. There are two football games on NBC this weekend and I don't see why the bandwidth should be that low again.

[bergerong]

The ota KHOU dropouts are still there on my Directv H20 receiver. They occur twice a minute even though my signal strength is 100%. The digital 14-1, 2, 3. . channels suffer from dropouts also. My old Hughes E86 hd receiver (that even has a better hd picture than the H20) does not have the KHOU dropout problem but it no longer picks up all the Directv satellites. I hate that! I still wonder if Directv did something to disable my old E86 and force me to go to this clunker H20. Would the people on this forum who own the new Directv HR20 dvr please let me know if KHOU is dropping out while using that receiver's ota tuner. If the HR20 clears up this problem I will get Directv to switch my H20 to a HR20. Please give me some feedback because I am tired of watching KHOU in "hd lite" via Directv's mpeg 4.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Originally Posted by bergerong

My old Hughes E86 hd receiver (that even has a better hd picture than the H20) does not have the KHOU dropout problem but it no longer picks up all the Directv satellites. I hate that! I still wonder if Directv did something to disable my old E86 and force me to go to this clunker H20.

I have 3 of the old E86s still subscribed and running fine (fan kit-modified). What has happened is that D* has added MPEG-4 compressed HD locals which the E86 is incapable of receiving. In the first place they're of an incompatible format and in the second place they're on a completely separate satellite that the E86 cannot receive (different frequency).

And it's about to get worse. Later this year D* plans to MOVE all of their existing HD tier (ESPN, UHD, HDNet, HDNet Movie, Discovery, etc) to the new satellites and the new MPEG-4 format. In other words, what your E86 can receive today, it eventually will not be able to. About all that will be left in HD for the E86 will be the OTA locals.

Ordinarily I wouldn't complain except that the user interface of the H20 series receivers is such a kludge and current MPEG-4 locals look terrible. I can hardly wait for D* to move everything to MPEG-4.

[JFR0317]

Originally Posted by bergerong

The ota KHOU dropouts are still there on my Directv H20 receiver. They occur twice a minute even though my signal strength is 100%. The digital 14-1, 2, 3. . channels suffer from dropouts also. My old Hughes E86 hd receiver (that even has a better hd picture than the H20) does not have the KHOU dropout problem but it no longer picks up all the Directv satellites. I hate that! I still wonder if Directv did something to disable my old E86 and force me to go to this clunker H20. Would the people on this forum who own the new Directv HR20 dvr please let me know if KHOU is dropping out while using that receiver's ota tuner. If the HR20 clears up this problem I will get Directv to switch my H20 to a HR20. Please give me some feedback because I am tired of watching KHOU in "hd lite" via Directv's mpeg 4.

I have an HR20 and have not have the twice a minute drop-out problem with KHOU-DT via OTA.

[JKohn]

My problem with KHOU 'dropouts' still exist, but I really don't think it's a signal dropout. I think something about the way the actual MPG program stream is encoded is causing my HTPC's HDTV decoder to have a hard time keeping the audio and video in sync. Reason I say this is that under my standard configuration the video will occasionally 'hitch', and basically skip several frames (I think it's trying to catch up). But if I use a filter called Reclock to slave the audio clock to the video card (usually it's the other way around), the video hitches go away and instead I get periodic audio dropouts (in other words, instead of the video skipping frames to catch up, the audio drops out waiting for the video to catch up).

Apparently some decoders handle this better than others, for instance my TV's internal decoder doesn't have the problem. And it may be worth pointing out that as a DVR the HR20 probably has more in commmon with my HTPC than it does with internal TV tuners or the older, non-DVR HD receivers. But the fact that some decoders don't exhibit the problem doesn't necessarily mean the MPEG stream isn't at fault.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing this problem won't go away until KHOU replaces their first-gen encoder.

[sbmanuel]

Originally Posted by JKohn

My problem with KHOU 'dropouts' still exist, but I really don't think it's a signal dropout. I think something about the way the actual MPG program stream is encoded is causing my HTPC's HDTV decoder to have a hard time keeping the audio and video in sync. Reason I say this is that under my standard configuration the video will occasionally 'hitch', and basically skip several frames (I think it's trying to catch up). But if I use a filter called Reclock to slave the audio clock to the video card (usually it's the other way around), the video hitches go away and instead I get periodic audio dropouts (in other words, instead of the video skipping frames to catch up, the audio drops out waiting for the video to catch up).

Apparently some decoders handle this better than others, for instance my TV's internal decoder doesn't have the problem. And it may be worth pointing out that as a DVR the HR20 probably has more in commmon with my HTPC than it does with internal TV tuners or the older, non-DVR HD receivers. But the fact that some decoders don't exhibit the problem doesn't necessarily mean the MPEG stream isn't at fault.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing this problem won't go away until KHOU replaces their first-gen encoder.

I have a Samsung SIR-T451 STB and an E* VIP622. Neither have problems with KHOU-DT, with either my CM3021 antenna or my Terk HDTVi.

[Gandalf007]

For CBS network stuff at least, you might try receiving a neighbor-market affiliate. I know KBTX in Bryan (actually the transmitter is near Carlos, in Grimes County) at 3-1 / RF 50 reaches north/west Houston at least. Perhaps you east-siders could get a Beaumont channel instead -- I don't know.

Of course, you should be able to watch your local channels reliably; I'm just suggesting workarounds. At least you guys have all your channels in HD; we have several -LP stations up here that won't be going digital any time soon.

[mikemikeb]

Originally Posted by JKohn

My problem with KHOU 'dropouts' still exist, but I really don't think it's a signal dropout. I think something about the way the actual MPG program stream is encoded is causing my HTPC's HDTV decoder to have a hard time keeping the audio and video in sync. ... Apparently some decoders handle this better than others, for instance my TV's internal decoder doesn't have the problem. ... Unfortunately, I'm guessing this problem won't go away until KHOU replaces their first-gen encoder.

Interesting. Maybe with a few software setting mods on the current encoder, the problem will go away without adverse side effects.

Go ahead and contact the engineering dep't at KHOU if you can. Your explanation seems clear enough for even me to make sense of it, so they should be able to understand it even easier.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Originally Posted by JKohn

My problem with KHOU 'dropouts' still exist, but I really don't think it's a signal dropout. I think something about the way the actual MPG program stream is encoded is causing my HTPC's HDTV decoder to have a hard time keeping the audio and video in sync. Reason I say this is that under my standard configuration the video will occasionally 'hitch', and basically skip several frames (I think it's trying to catch up). But if I use a filter called Reclock to slave the audio clock to the video card (usually it's the other way around), the video hitches go away and instead I get periodic audio dropouts (in other words, instead of the video skipping frames to catch up, the audio drops out waiting for the video to catch up).

Apparently some decoders handle this better than others, for instance my TV's internal decoder doesn't have the problem. And it may be worth pointing out that as a DVR the HR20 probably has more in commmon with my HTPC than it does with internal TV tuners or the older, non-DVR HD receivers. But the fact that some decoders don't exhibit the problem doesn't necessarily mean the MPEG stream isn't at fault.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing this problem won't go away until KHOU replaces their first-gen encoder.

You may be on to something here Jeff. Based on the brief tests we did with the spectrum analyzer recently I'm sufficiently satisfied it's not a signal issue and like you, the internal tuner on my Mits 65732 has no problem with it, nor for that matter does either of my trusty old D* E86s. However, something's going on here that some tuners/STBs are having trouble with.

[AAF]

Wild Card football on NBC is looking pretty good today. Much improved picture quality, IMHO, over the last few Sunday Night games I had seen.

[AAF]

Well call me crazy, but I think the 2nd game from Seattle looks worse than the game at Indy. I need a beer.

[sbmanuel]

Originally Posted by AAF

Well call me crazy, but I think the 2nd game from Seattle looks worse than the game at Indy. I need a beer.

IMHO, it looks dull and softened. It lacks the razor-sharp quality most NFL games have. Maybe it's a lighting issue. Doesn't appear to be a local issue.

[mikemikeb]

Oddly, in the Programming/Official Game Sticky thread, the consensus is that the second game looks better than the first.

[rcbtaw]

I have a 50" Panasonic plasma and D* HD. The football on NBC was odd all year (at least for me). When the camera would go to show the play before the snap, the picture would be fuzzy. After about two seconds and the camera seemingly being zoomed in a little, the picture was more clear. I still believe that FOX HD has the best NFL presentation.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Originally Posted by rcbtaw

I have a 50" Panasonic plasma and D* HD. The football on NBC was odd all year (at least for me). When the camera would go to show the play before the snap, the picture would be fuzzy. After about two seconds and the camera seemingly being zoomed in a little, the picture was more clear. I still believe that FOX HD has the best NFL presentation.

Your observations are RIGHT Robert. Fox (KRIV) does in fact have the best quality HD sports in the metro area, far surpassing NBC (KPRC) and CBS (KHOU). The few football games carried on ABC (KTRK) this year have also been pretty good, certainly better than either NBC or CBS, but still FOX is the best, in my opinion.

Recently KPRC (NBC) has made some changes that have improved their HD picture quality of the NFL games, but it's still not as good as it should be (using the PQ of FOX as the benchmark standard of comparison).

Here for your reading enjoyment is an excellent and extremely informative article, in layman's terms, that explains what you, I and others are seeing.

http://www.multichannel.com/index.as...leid=CA6400524

[sbmanuel]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Your observations are RIGHT Robert. Fox (KRIV) does in fact have the best quality HD sports in the metro area, far surpassing NBC (KPRC) and CBS (KHOU). The few football games carried on ABC (KTRK) this year have also been pretty good, certainly better than either NBC or CBS, but still FOX is the best, in my opinion.

Recently KPRC (NBC) has made some changes that have improved their HD picture quality of the NFL games, but it's still not as good as it should be (using the PQ of FOX as the benchmark standard of comparison).

Here for your reading enjoyment is an excellent and extremely informative article, in layman's terms, that explains what you, I and others are seeing.

http://www.multichannel.com/index.as...leid=CA6400524

I couldn't agree more...ESPN HD is also in the tops in PQ.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Originally Posted by sbmanuel

I couldn't agree more...ESPN HD is also in the tops in PQ.

Yes it is and if you read the article you know why it is. Disney requires in its carriage agreements with cable & satellite operators that ESPN-HD must be carried at 19.2 Mbps.

[ckenisell]

After watching Las Vegas Fri. night on KPRC, I can honestly say that I did notice an improvement, but they still have more work ahead of them.

[hdguru]

No doubt...the KPRC HD signal looks better. The football was obviously better this weekend.

That artifact that occurs when a new shot is selected (especially noticeable in sports/football)...where it briefly loses it's edge detail and it gradually returns to full resolution...has also popped up on Ch-11...though not as often. And guess what? They also have a early Harris encoder. It involves the chroma filtering function, which can "look ahead" to incomiing data...or work only with what's on the screen at that moment. In the "anticipation" mode, when more data than the encoder can efficiently process is coming in...you see that "snap" out of focus briefly. Harris has recommended that the encoder configuration be set to "real time" processing...which is slightly less sharp...but does not "burp" and appear to jump out of focus when hit by a large amount of data (lots of motion, many "datapoints"....like a fairly close, panning crowd shot....or football field with lots of torn up areas in the turf.

The "good news" is that the stations involved are aware that their 1st generation encoders are no longer "state of the art" and plans are to acquire new equipment as budgets allow.

[sbmanuel]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Yes it is and if you read the article you know why it is. Disney requires in its carriage agreements with cable & satellite operators that ESPN-HD must be carried at 19.2 Mbps.

I did read the article before my post. Very interesting piece. Since we were talking sports, I only thought it was appropriate to mention.

[mikemikeb]

Originally Posted by hdguru

That artifact that occurs when a new shot is selected (especially noticeable in sports/football)...where it briefly loses it's edge detail and it gradually returns to full resolution...has also popped up on Ch-11...though not as often. And guess what? They also have a early Harris encoder. It involves the chroma filtering function, which can "look ahead" to incomiing data...or work only with what's on the screen at that moment. In the "anticipation" mode, when more data than the encoder can efficiently process is coming in...you see that "snap" out of focus briefly. Harris has recommended that the encoder configuration be set to "real time" processing
....

The "good news" is that the stations involved are aware that their 1st generation encoders are no longer "state of the art" and plans are to acquire new equipment as budgets allow.

The other piece of good news is that since KHOU is dedicating a lot of bandwidth to HD now, they can turn it on "real time" mode right now without much, if any, picture degradation. Does it look like they've done that with the game on now?

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Today's Patriot's game on KHOU/11 was some of the best HD I've seen from them in recent memory.

[ckenisell]

The Pats game on CBS was superb. With all of this talk on here about FOX being the best NFL, I was dissappointed when I started watching the Eagles game.

For one, CBS directed their game better. I love the shot before the center hikes the football to the QB. The shot starts off wide and zooms into the entire offensive line. This helps me, with a DVR, know when to stop fast forwarding so I can view just the play. I watched the entire game in about an hour and fifteen minutes with no commercials and no half time. FOX's directing dictates that they use all kinds of weird close-up shots before the actual play. They get right down to the wire and they even miss the beginning of a lot of plays because of this. Especially with a no-huddle offense.

Also, FOX shades their cameras hot. I've always noticed this. Any jersey that has white in it gets crushed and it way too bright. All the detail is lost. Add to that the annoying dancing robot, and this game was a disaster to watch. Even with a DVR. It took me closer to an hour and fourty-five minutes to watch this game (skipping commercials and half-time.)

[hdguru]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Preshoot

Today's Patriot's game on KHOU/11 was some of the best HD I've seen from them in recent memory.

For one...the weather was good in Foxboro, and, of course, ch-11's weather radar subchannel is down right now = more bandwidth for HD.


BTW: Anyone notice the promo spots on 13 and 11 promoting their HD programming?

[JKohn]

I have to agree with Chet the overall presentation of the game on KHOU was better than KRIV. All 3 networks have annoying graphics/animations/sound-effects during their football games, so I'm not going to comment on that. But I too noticed the hot whites on the FOX broadcast, and also some inconsistencies between cameras. It seemed there were some differences in color balance/saturation between different cameras; also in some of the shots it seemed like there was a fair amount of edge enhancement. There are all issues with the national feed though, not KRIV. And that's not to say that their broadcast was bad, it will still trouble free as far as dropouts, glitches, etc.

Regardless, kudos to KHOU for signifantly improving their broadcast quality. Maybe all our whining really does have an imact. :smile:

[txmetabaron]

Is it just me,or Fox26 has yet to master HDTV broadcast?
That has to be one of the crappiest HD broadcast I''ve seen.
Almost makes me wanna not watch the game.

[sasmallen]

I have not seen anything out of the ordinary while watching the game so far...

[mikemikeb]

Originally Posted by ckenisell

The Pats game on CBS was superb. With all of this talk on here about FOX being the best NFL, I was dissappointed when I started watching the Eagles game.

For one, CBS directed their game better.

I have issues with CBS's sound mix. It's technically 5.1 but I have to put my ear to the rear speakers to hear stuff most of the time. Fox has much more noticeable rear surround on average (and it sounds good, too).

I watch the games OTA thru WUSA and WTTG in Washington, DC.