How to record via IEEE 1394 (Firewire) to Windows XP

DaveFi · 05-27-04, 11:08 AM

There is no way to get around DTCP/5C protection and it's most likely that the 5C=1 QAM content is encrypted anyways, so a QAM enabled PC Tuner will do you little good on that front as well.

dozens · 05-27-04, 11:16 AM

Is a 5C recording scrambled or just junk ?

Chris Carollo · 05-27-04, 11:31 AM

Even discussing how to bypass 5C encrypition was made illegal by the DMCA, so I'd suggest not continuing down that road of discussion.

If we could somehow make a driver/storage scheme that complies with 5C, on the other hand, that would allow us to record 5C-encrypted material legally.

So...anyone tried any other drivers for these boxes? Any full or partial successes?

rmoore · 05-27-04, 01:00 PM

The live watching with VLAN was what I was trying to do (post #43), and experienced bluescreen when trying to configure as well. I tried the steps ben has listed, but the render was all black, no sound. I did get a nice little "Channel 3" overlay for the first few seconds, so it seemed to be talking at some level. Now that ben has successfully made it work, I'll play with it some more. I should have enough hp with a 2.4G/800M FSB/1G dual-channel ram. perhaps a different channel...

DaveFi · 05-27-04, 01:24 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, 5C isn't encryption- it's a "flag" that tells DTCP compliant hardware how to deal with a program: Copy always, Copy Once or Copy Never. (0,1,2?)

So, for purposes of this thread, the 6200 sees your PC Firewire as a non-compliant DTCP device and blocks the output for 5C=1,2. Unfortunately the 6200 w/7.10 firmware blocks the output to every device if just 1 is non-compliant. I don't think that's how DTCP is supposed to work.

On top of that your cable company will probably encrypt the material, that way a standard QAM tuner like the ones on TVs and PCTuners couldn't receive the programming.

chosenfool · 05-27-04, 03:06 PM

beta-testing a 6208 (single tuner HD DVR). actually a friend of mine works for comcast and he's allowed me to use his 6208. had to bring over my HTPC.

via CapDVHS, i can record LIVE HD programs without any issues, along with analog channels (2-99), and the regular digital channels (102-171, 300s, 400s). Even VOD shows. INterestingly, The DVR itself is NOT able to do this (VOD recording).

to my surprise, i was also able to capture RECORDED shows to my HTPC. i was thinking firewire recording only did streaming shows, not ones recorded onto the 6208's own had drive. Its interesting to note also that no compression was on the DVR-recorded programs. I scheduled the pistons/pacers game 2 on ESPNHD and recorded a short clip LIVE via CapDVHS, and then recorded a clip off of the DVR-captured game. Same bitrate, same aspect ratio.
thats good encouraging news - i can schedule a recording on the 6208, and know its not compressed or converted to a lower bit file. no degradation in PQ. that means i dont have to be there to record a program onto my hard drive - i can simply record via the 6208, and then record that recording to my hard drive (sounds so redundant!). i then simply delete the DVR recording to make room for future recordings.

hopefully this 6208 will be released to the public here soon. i can turn in my 6200, and get rid of my ReplayTV. one less component and one less remote! :P

theswid · 05-27-04, 06:22 PM

1st, when i capture any optional channels from comcast via 6200, there is a file created (i can see the frames of data flying in the capture program as well) but the file type is not defined in the templete (frame rate, resolution, etc). I do assume that this is 5C so it does send data but it is of no value.

2nd, a question for chosenfool: comcast here in St. Hgts. MI does offer the 6208 as a $4 per month option. Since you can copy via fireware to a pc, what firmware is the unit you are using? the 7.10 does catch a non-complient device (say a HTPC) like i stated above. Maybe your unit has an older firmware or maybe your comcast system is not setting the flags correctly yet.

Mark

theswid · 05-27-04, 06:25 PM

since HTPC's with firewire are not able to capture 5C encryption streams, what DVHS decks meet this requirement?

mark

bdraw · 05-27-04, 07:42 PM

5C is compliant at the hardware level, so we have to hope that 5C licenses someone to make a 5C compliant firewire card.

It should be possible to write a driver that doesn't blue screen. Both the mac and Linux have drivers that have more functionality. I think the problem is that most developers don't want to spend time on a project that is a waste of time if/when 5C is enabled for all channels.

If Vividlogic ever comes out with the DTVRecorder(aka firebus) it will be in the same situation, only useful for non-5C content.

There is hope that a PC may be 5C compliant the original presentations on www.dtcp.com show PC's as one of the compliant devices, but none have ever been made.

chosenfool · 05-27-04, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theswid
1st, when i capture any optional channels from comcast via 6200, there is a file created (i can see the frames of data flying in the capture program as well) but the file type is not defined in the templete (frame rate, resolution, etc). I do assume that this is 5C so it does send data but it is of no value.

2nd, a question for chosenfool: comcast here in St. Hgts. MI does offer the 6208 as a $4 per month option. Since you can copy via fireware to a pc, what firmware is the unit you are using? the 7.10 does catch a non-complient device (say a HTPC) like i stated above. Maybe your unit has an older firmware or maybe your comcast system is not setting the flags correctly yet.

Mark

7.10.

5C is set to "0". this means its disabled, no? :

and HDCP is set to "N/A" :

though this is cuz im not using the DVI port. from what ive heard, HDCP is enabled only when its using the DVI port.

chosenfool · 05-27-04, 09:37 PM

im thinking that the ability to record everything at this time (analog, digital, HD, VOD, and even native-STB-recorded shows) is only due to this box being a beta-tester DVR. once its officially released, it may be disabled.
though im hoping its still that way when its finally released to the public....

theswid · 05-27-04, 10:02 PM

YES. Mine does show 5C=1 which means that it does not allow capture with external device without 5C hardware in it too (like a JVC DVHS deck).

I wonder if i get the 6208 that is avail here that it will be set to a zero....

mark

bart745 · 05-28-04, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theswid
YES. Mine does show 5C=1 which means that it does not allow capture with external device without 5C hardware in it too (like a JVC DVHS deck).

I wonder if i get the 6208 that is avail here that it will be set to a zero....

mark

I think that you may see different 5C values in the Status screen depending on the particular channel being watched when the STB is turned off.

Also, I think that the 5C value does not reside statically in the STB but is part of the DTV stream.

theswid · 05-28-04, 10:25 AM

Bart745: you are correct. i just checked my box on a non protected channel & the 5C=0.

So what gives? How come some people can capture the stream & others (like me) cannot? does this vaiy from box to box or is this determined by the headend (comcast) encoding the stream?

mark

DaveFi · 05-28-04, 10:59 AM

Comcast is setting the values. This is the way it's going to be from now on.

It seems "Copy Once" is going to be the norm for pretty much everything.

N3W813 · 05-28-04, 01:51 PM

I can get HBO to record 25-30s.......Just start CapDVHS recording a channel that is not 5C, then change the channel to HBO during recording and it'll capture about 30s worth of HBO before crapping out. CapDVHS will continue recording, but the data is unreadable.

If you send the ts thru tsreader, you get all kinds of continuity errors, and tons of PIDs.

jsb_hburg · 05-28-04, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveFi
Comcast is setting the values. This is the way it's going to be from now on.

It seems "Copy Once" is going to be the norm for pretty much everything.

I talked to a local headend supervisor today and he emphatically said that the programmers are setting the 5C flags not the MSO.

jonnyb · 05-28-04, 04:53 PM

The link in the first post doesn't seem to be working.

http://www.ntut.edu.tw/~s7310308/htm...ore_driver.zip

Does anyone know where else you can get these drivers?

I do have my DVHS deck recognized by Windows XP. I had used the directions oulined here last year. Is there something different in the core_driver.zip package?

Thanks!

Chris Carollo · 05-28-04, 06:08 PM

I mirrored it onto my site:

http://www.cornbread.org/HT/core_driver.zip

jonnyb · 05-28-04, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Carollo
I mirrored it onto my site:

http://www.cornbread.org/HT/core_driver.zip

Thanks!

Chris Carollo · 05-30-04, 11:45 AM

Anyone have any info about how to record the a/v stream via something like DirectShow? If I try to set up a capture session as indicated in the DirectShow documentation I end up consistently bluescreening.

I've got some free time and would be interested in writing a PVR-ish piece of recording software, but I'm not too keen on debugging a bluescreening driver crash.

Alternately, if anyone knows of any other drivers that work and are more stable, that would help immensely too.

theswid · 05-30-04, 12:08 PM

does anyone have information regarding the conversion of a captured .TS transport stream to Windows Media 9 (WM9) HD & maintaining the dolby digital sound? I am not sure what software & process should be used.

Thanks,
Mark

VideoGrabber · 05-30-04, 02:19 PM

bdraw wrote:
> I am sorry but this does not work with w2k. You will have to upgrade to xp. The 1394 stack for XP is completely different from 2k. <

I know this is true, however I don't understand why a compatible protocol stack and drivers couldn't be made available for Win2k as well. Does anyone know why this isn't possible, or is it just that it hasn't been done because moving to XP is less effort?

(All 3 of the Win2k systems I have at home (and the one I use at work) is more stable than any of the XP systems we have at work, so I'd prefer not having to "upgrade" one of mine to XP just for 1394 support... if possible.)

- Tim

edraven · 05-30-04, 06:50 PM

This thread is exactly what I've been looking for. Just got it up and running in a few minutes with a Motorola 6200. So far, I can capture everything I've tried, including HBO-HD.

update: INHD doesn't work. It records, but the file is unplayable. 5C I assume? How can I check?

jimre · 05-30-04, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveFi
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, 5C isn't encryption- it's a "flag" that tells DTCP compliant hardware how to deal with a program: Copy always, Copy Once or Copy Never. (0,1,2?)

5C most definitely encrypts the content, for any mode except copy-freely. If the content wasn't encrypted, it would be trivial to write software that reads the 1394 data stream & simply ignores the flags. See the 5C/DTCP spec here:

http://www.dtcp.com/data/wp_spec.pdf

bdraw · 05-30-04, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VideoGrabber

I know this is true, however I don't understand why a compatible protocol stack and drivers couldn't be made available for Win2k as well. Does anyone know why this isn't possible, or is it just that it hasn't been done because moving to XP is less effort?

(All 3 of the Win2k systems I have at home (and the one I use at work) is more stable than any of the XP systems we have at work, so I'd prefer not having to "upgrade" one of mine to XP just for 1394 support... if possible.)

I always say "Windows is very stable until you install software on it."
I would look to the software that is install on your machine at work rather than blaming XP. After all XP is just windows NT5.1.

Windows XP comes with the necessary components to record 2k doesn't. If you want to write the 2k driver I am sure 2k owners everywhere will be appreciative. But I assure you it is much easier to upgrade to XP.

The only reason not to upgrade to XP is if you have a older piece of hardware that is not compatible with XP.

bdraw · 05-30-04, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theswid
does anyone have information regarding the conversion of a captured .TS transport stream to Windows Media 9 (WM9) HD & maintaining the dolby digital sound? I am not sure what software & process should be used.

See this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=227837

As far as I know WM9 doesn't support an AC3 sound track. I would recomment converting to mpeg with HDTVtoMPEG2 v1.10b. Then convert to Xvid just like one would convert a DVD. Doom9.org is the best place to read up on this type of topic.

bdraw · 05-30-04, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Carollo
Anyone have any info about how to record the a/v stream via something like DirectShow? If I try to set up a capture session as indicated in the DirectShow documentation I end up consistently bluescreening.

I've got some free time and would be interested in writing a PVR-ish piece of recording software, but I'm not too keen on debugging a bluescreening driver crash.

Alternately, if anyone knows of any other drivers that work and are more stable, that would help immensely too.

I would love if this were possible. I think that a driver would have to be written, and I think that the only way someone will spend the time on a driver is if they were sure it would work once 5C was enabled everywhere. I think your best bet may be to use dtcrecord and a IR blaster via serial to control the STB. If you were to write a nice GUI I think it would be a big hit.

The other option would be to use linux which might have a better 1394 driver than this hack.

pierreb · 05-31-04, 08:17 AM

Found out what feels better than sex...

Checking your Mot STB, and finding out you were upgraded from 7.07 to 7.10.

Boston Suburb

pierreb

Chris Carollo · 05-31-04, 11:06 AM

bdraw: yeah, I'm a pretty proficient C++ programmer so I could definitely handle the PVR and GUI and IR-blaster via serial...but I don't think I'm up for any driver writing/debugging. Never done it before, and I expect the specs that I'd need will be pretty hard to come by.

I emailed the author of dctrecord to see if I could some info (or source code) on how he was recording the video stream (since I'd rather not shell out to an external program), but haven't heard back yet.

In the meantime, I think I'm just going to try grabbing the raw 1394 stream and see what I come up with...

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DaveFi AVS Addicted Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Natick MA Posts: 13,644	There is no way to get around DTCP/5C protection and it's most likely that the 5C=1 QAM content is encrypted anyways, so a QAM enabled PC Tuner will do you little good on that front as well. __________________ PSN: Wagg My Sackboy is going to have a really big sack.

05-27-04, 11:16 AM	#62 \| Link
dozens AVS Special Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,043	Is a 5C recording scrambled or just junk ? __________________ http://pid.us.playstation.com//user/dozens.jpg Last edited by dozens; 05-27-04 at 11:51 AM..

05-27-04, 01:24 PM	#65 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
DaveFi AVS Addicted Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Natick MA Posts: 13,644	Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, 5C isn't encryption- it's a "flag" that tells DTCP compliant hardware how to deal with a program: Copy always, Copy Once or Copy Never. (0,1,2?) So, for purposes of this thread, the 6200 sees your PC Firewire as a non-compliant DTCP device and blocks the output for 5C=1,2. Unfortunately the 6200 w/7.10 firmware blocks the output to every device if just 1 is non-compliant. I don't think that's how DTCP is supposed to work. On top of that your cable company will probably encrypt the material, that way a standard QAM tuner like the ones on TVs and PCTuners couldn't receive the programming. __________________ PSN: Wagg My Sackboy is going to have a really big sack.

05-27-04, 06:22 PM	#67 \| Link
theswid Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 33	RE: Is a 5C recording scrambled or just junk ? & 6208 1st, when i capture any optional channels from comcast via 6200, there is a file created (i can see the frames of data flying in the capture program as well) but the file type is not defined in the templete (frame rate, resolution, etc). I do assume that this is 5C so it does send data but it is of no value. 2nd, a question for chosenfool: comcast here in St. Hgts. MI does offer the 6208 as a $4 per month option. Since you can copy via fireware to a pc, what firmware is the unit you are using? the 7.10 does catch a non-complient device (say a HTPC) like i stated above. Maybe your unit has an older firmware or maybe your comcast system is not setting the flags correctly yet. Mark

05-27-04, 06:25 PM	#68 \| Link
theswid Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 33	DVHS alternate for 62xx recording since HTPC's with firewire are not able to capture 5C encryption streams, what DVHS decks meet this requirement? mark

05-27-04, 11:31 AM	#63 \| Link
Chris Carollo Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 879	Even discussing how to bypass 5C encrypition was made illegal by the DMCA, so I'd suggest not continuing down that road of discussion. If we could somehow make a driver/storage scheme that complies with 5C, on the other hand, that would allow us to record 5C-encrypted material legally. So...anyone tried any other drivers for these boxes? Any full or partial successes?

05-27-04, 01:00 PM	#64 \| Link
rmoore New Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 4	The live watching with VLAN was what I was trying to do (post #43), and experienced bluescreen when trying to configure as well. I tried the steps ben has listed, but the render was all black, no sound. I did get a nice little "Channel 3" overlay for the first few seconds, so it seemed to be talking at some level. Now that ben has successfully made it work, I'll play with it some more. I should have enough hp with a 2.4G/800M FSB/1G dual-channel ram. perhaps a different channel...

05-27-04, 03:06 PM	#66 \| Link
chosenfool king of fools Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37	beta-testing a 6208 (single tuner HD DVR). actually a friend of mine works for comcast and he's allowed me to use his 6208. had to bring over my HTPC. via CapDVHS, i can record LIVE HD programs without any issues, along with analog channels (2-99), and the regular digital channels (102-171, 300s, 400s). Even VOD shows. INterestingly, The DVR itself is NOT able to do this (VOD recording). to my surprise, i was also able to capture RECORDED shows to my HTPC. i was thinking firewire recording only did streaming shows, not ones recorded onto the 6208's own had drive. Its interesting to note also that no compression was on the DVR-recorded programs. I scheduled the pistons/pacers game 2 on ESPNHD and recorded a short clip LIVE via CapDVHS, and then recorded a clip off of the DVR-captured game. Same bitrate, same aspect ratio. thats good encouraging news - i can schedule a recording on the 6208, and know its not compressed or converted to a lower bit file. no degradation in PQ. that means i dont have to be there to record a program onto my hard drive - i can simply record via the 6208, and then record that recording to my hard drive (sounds so redundant!). i then simply delete the DVR recording to make room for future recordings. hopefully this 6208 will be released to the public here soon. i can turn in my 6200, and get rid of my ReplayTV. one less component and one less remote! :P

05-27-04, 07:42 PM	#69 \| Link
bdraw AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tampa FL 33602 Posts: 2,332	5C is compliant at the hardware level, so we have to hope that 5C licenses someone to make a 5C compliant firewire card. It should be possible to write a driver that doesn't blue screen. Both the mac and Linux have drivers that have more functionality. I think the problem is that most developers don't want to spend time on a project that is a waste of time if/when 5C is enabled for all channels. If Vividlogic ever comes out with the DTVRecorder(aka firebus) it will be in the same situation, only useful for non-5C content. There is hope that a PC may be 5C compliant the original presentations on www.dtcp.com show PC's as one of the compliant devices, but none have ever been made. __________________ Ben How good could it be if it isn't HD? Engadget HD

05-27-04, 09:37 PM	#71 \| Link
chosenfool king of fools Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37	im thinking that the ability to record everything at this time (analog, digital, HD, VOD, and even native-STB-recorded shows) is only due to this box being a beta-tester DVR. once its officially released, it may be disabled. though im hoping its still that way when its finally released to the public....

05-27-04, 10:02 PM	#72 \| Link
theswid Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 33	5C in 6200 YES. Mine does show 5C=1 which means that it does not allow capture with external device without 5C hardware in it too (like a JVC DVHS deck). I wonder if i get the 6208 that is avail here that it will be set to a zero.... mark

05-28-04, 10:25 AM	#74 \| Link
theswid Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 33	5C (more) Bart745: you are correct. i just checked my box on a non protected channel & the 5C=0. So what gives? How come some people can capture the stream & others (like me) cannot? does this vaiy from box to box or is this determined by the headend (comcast) encoding the stream? mark

05-28-04, 10:59 AM	#75 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
DaveFi AVS Addicted Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Natick MA Posts: 13,644	Comcast is setting the values. This is the way it's going to be from now on. It seems "Copy Once" is going to be the norm for pretty much everything. __________________ PSN: Wagg My Sackboy is going to have a really big sack.

05-28-04, 01:51 PM	#76 \| Link
N3W813 Advanced Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 521	I can get HBO to record 25-30s.......Just start CapDVHS recording a channel that is not 5C, then change the channel to HBO during recording and it'll capture about 30s worth of HBO before crapping out. CapDVHS will continue recording, but the data is unreadable. If you send the ts thru tsreader, you get all kinds of continuity errors, and tons of PIDs.

05-28-04, 04:53 PM	#78 \| Link
jonnyb Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 370	The link in the first post doesn't seem to be working. http://www.ntut.edu.tw/~s7310308/htm...ore_driver.zip Does anyone know where else you can get these drivers? I do have my DVHS deck recognized by Windows XP. I had used the directions oulined here last year. Is there something different in the core_driver.zip package? Thanks!

05-28-04, 06:08 PM	#79 \| Link
Chris Carollo Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 879	I mirrored it onto my site: http://www.cornbread.org/HT/core_driver.zip

05-30-04, 11:45 AM	#81 \| Link
Chris Carollo Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 879	Anyone have any info about how to record the a/v stream via something like DirectShow? If I try to set up a capture session as indicated in the DirectShow documentation I end up consistently bluescreening. I've got some free time and would be interested in writing a PVR-ish piece of recording software, but I'm not too keen on debugging a bluescreening driver crash. Alternately, if anyone knows of any other drivers that work and are more stable, that would help immensely too.

05-30-04, 12:08 PM	#82 \| Link
theswid Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 33	transport stream convert to Windows Media 9 does anyone have information regarding the conversion of a captured .TS transport stream to Windows Media 9 (WM9) HD & maintaining the dolby digital sound? I am not sure what software & process should be used. Thanks, Mark

05-30-04, 02:19 PM	#83 \| Link
VideoGrabber AVS Special Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 2,721	bdraw wrote: > I am sorry but this does not work with w2k. You will have to upgrade to xp. The 1394 stack for XP is completely different from 2k. < I know this is true, however I don't understand why a compatible protocol stack and drivers couldn't be made available for Win2k as well. Does anyone know why this isn't possible, or is it just that it hasn't been done because moving to XP is less effort? (All 3 of the Win2k systems I have at home (and the one I use at work) is more stable than any of the XP systems we have at work, so I'd prefer not having to "upgrade" one of mine to XP just for 1394 support... if possible.) - Tim

05-30-04, 06:50 PM	#84 \| Link
edraven Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 102	This thread is exactly what I've been looking for. Just got it up and running in a few minutes with a Motorola 6200. So far, I can capture everything I've tried, including HBO-HD. update: INHD doesn't work. It records, but the file is unplayable. 5C I assume? How can I check? Last edited by edraven; 05-30-04 at 07:12 PM..

05-31-04, 08:17 AM	#89 \| Link
pierreb Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Boston,MA Posts: 180	Found out what feels better than sex... Checking your Mot STB, and finding out you were upgraded from 7.07 to 7.10. Boston Suburb pierreb

05-31-04, 11:06 AM	#90 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Chris Carollo Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 879	bdraw: yeah, I'm a pretty proficient C++ programmer so I could definitely handle the PVR and GUI and IR-blaster via serial...but I don't think I'm up for any driver writing/debugging. Never done it before, and I expect the specs that I'd need will be pretty hard to come by. I emailed the author of dctrecord to see if I could some info (or source code) on how he was recording the video stream (since I'd rather not shell out to an external program), but haven't heard back yet. In the meantime, I think I'm just going to try grabbing the raw 1394 stream and see what I come up with...