ATI HDTV Wonder

[xortam]

I noticed HDTVFanAtic posted in another thread his/her recent experience with the new ATI HDTV Wonder card. I haven't investigated this card yet but I'm receiving a myHD MDP-120 tomorrow. I'm wondering if there is now a better choice. Does the ATI card support DVI for HDTV? What are the DVI timing specs? What is the PQ like compared to the myHD? Time to start a search for reviews ...

[pdermody]

Unless I am mistaken, I suspect the ATI HDTV Wonder will be much like the Fusion line of cards and will utilize your main video cards output via overlay or VMR.

-pd

[HDTVFanAtic]

I put the original post in another thread as a wake up call to MIT. I for one would rather know the landscape of what's going on instead of sticking my head in the ground....but regardless.

I played with the ATI HDTV Wonder Card for around 30 minutes total today at the NAB in Las Vegas. It is due out within 4-6 weeks with a $110 retail price.

This card only works with a 9500+ Series Radeon (9500, 9600, 9800 etc). They are not supporting other cards at this time - though they may in the future.

So your DVI or composite output is determined by the Radeon 9500+ card.

As this uses the same basic interface updated for HDTV as the AIW, you cannot use a 9800 AIW and this card together at the same time.

I am not sure if that means it will work with a 9800 AIW as the main video card or not - or just the TV features of the AIW. I could see how the hardware might conflict.

Their card of choice for use with the HDTV Wonder is the 9600XT
For the $110 retail price, that does not include the Remote. That is another $50 retail if you get their newest remote. The older series that is included with the AIW will work as well, but it is older.

Clearly, I could not compare it to MyHD Card in Florida. However, the live PBS HD feed in Vegas looked pretty damn good. It was an unfamilar Monitor and Source feed - so impossible to compare it to my MyHD setup.

Unlike the MyHD card, you could basically use all TIVO like effects - you could pause the live PBS-HD feed and pick it up at that point.....go back any amount of time and restart it from that point etc.

The capture software was amazing as it let you capture in about any format you wanted (transport stream, MPEG, MPEG 2, MPEG 4, Windows Media, AVI etc) - or downconvert it to that format for archival on a DVD or CD. At that point it even told you the size of the different formats so you could choose accordingly.

I was able to make the live feed start stuttering by clicking on a link to a network drive that wasn't there. However, this is the beta software, which they are trying to finish up on, and thus the hold up. I can lock up (not just stutter) MyHD much easier than this - so I am not overly concerned that will be fixed.

I was very blunt with them and told them their hardware has normally been really good for a number of years, but their software and drivers typical suck. They felt that they had a really good team and were trying to correct those past perceptions.

The OSD blew away anything from MyHD.

The only thing I liked more on MyHD was the Reservation Page - a single page where you can see everything. ATI is using a wizard. I don't like Wizards. However, as I had my laptop with wireless capabilities, I logged into my VPN at home and brought up my HTPC from the Convention Floor and showed her the Reservation screen from MyHD. She said that in the future they may make a novice/expert screen, but they originally went with a single page setup and their feedback was it was too confusing and John Q. Public liked the wizard better.....oh well.

Also, they originally made their Radeon Drivers with the Professional accepted overscan of 15%. With the latest set of drivers, they have it more defined where you can pretty much bring it in on a 16:9 - and in the future drivers they intend to have it right on the money.

Overall, I was highly impressed. I intend to get a unit upon release and run it beside MyHD card for Quality and make my decision then which to send back or sell on eBay.

We will know by the end of May.

[xortam]

Thanks HDTVFanAtic for the report. I'm more interested in comparing the HW between these two products. I guess I'm already committed to the myHD since I'd probably be outside any return window by the time we know about the relative quality of the ATI HW.

P.S. pdermody ... What is VMR?

[RTK]

Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
Also, they originally made their Radeon Drivers with the Professional accepted overscan of 15%. With the latest set of drivers, they have it more defined where you can pretty much bring it in on a 16:9 - and in the future drivers they intend to have it right on the money.

could you elaborate what you mean by this? overscan is a function of the display, not the drivers. are you saying the drivers allow you to output a lesser resolution to compensate for display overscan?

[babi_988]

Is this card shipping yet? If it is where can I buy it and if it's not, does anyone know when it will ship?

[Sgt_Strider]

Hi, I'm wondering are there component input for this card? Is this for PCI-Express or PCI? Thx

[flashbacck]

Overall it's neat. The only thing that bugs me is the video card requirements. They're leaving us folks with Radeon 7000s or 8000s behind. And what about people with nvidia cards? And you can't use an AIW at the same time? Bleh.

[tji]

There were pictures of this card linked in another thread here.. It's very similar to the Fusion cards, it just has the tuner and demodulator components, no hardware encode/decode capabilities. So, it relies on the CPU for most of the work. This means the software will play an even bigger role, especially when doing more complex PVR functions. I hope that it works well. But, given my experience with ATI's video drivers, I won't be buying one of these cards until I hear user reports about the quality.


Also, HDTVFanatic, I'm not sure what kind of issues you are having with MyHD, but I don't think frequent lockups are a common issue with the MyHD card. I've been using it since the MDP-100 first came out, and with early software versions I had stability problems, but now I have no stability problems.

As this uses the same basic interface updated for HDTV as the AIW, you cannot use a 9800 AIW and this card together at the same time.

This can not be! Even ATI isn't that stupid!

[Karyk]

Originally posted by RTK
could you elaborate what you mean by this? overscan is a function of the display, not the drivers. are you saying the drivers allow you to output a lesser resolution to compensate for display overscan?

I think they might be saying you won't need Powerstrip--that they will have a pre-defined resolution you can pick that will display on your TV. This card will output through your video card.

[Rick Guynn]

So, it relies on the CPU for most of the work.

Not necessarily. If they are insisting on a 9500+ as a requirement to pair it with, then they are likely using DxVA with DX9-specific calls and possibly not even offering a software-only decode mode. The 9500 was the first ATI card to support DX9 in hardware.

RG

[SteveRo]

Rick, Regarding your statement: "... overscan is a function of the display ..." I think this generally true but in the case of the MyHD there is a routine you can execute (provided by MitInc I think) that adjusts overscan-underscan via the registry. If pushed to far, the picture begins to show horizontal banding - but applied lightly - it does work on both the overlay and in HD mode.

[madpoet]

I'm curious whether or not they included QAm256 capabilities.

[space2001]

I am also curios, I pretty much live right beside ATI and wonder how it will work for people in markham

[Mntneer]

Any idea how sensative a tuner it has? I can pick up all kinda of stations with the MyHD 120 card that I couldn't with many set top STB's.

[space2001]

yah, also here rogers has just a box for tuning for hd, wondering also if I already have rogers hd will I be able to pick it up witht his card since it has QAM

[tji]

Originally posted by Rick Guynn
Not necessarily. If they are insisting on a 9500+ as a requirement to pair it with, then they are likely using DxVA with DX9-specific calls and possibly not even offering a software-only decode mode. The 9500 was the first ATI card to support DX9 in hardware.

I'm not sure what you mean by DX9 specific calls for DxVA. What was added for MPEG2 processing in DxVA for Dx9?

ATI has had acceleration in their cards for a long time now. But, even with DxVA, that's a much different processing situation than with a full hardware decoder like the MyHD.

DxVA (at least the older DxVA) just addresses parts of the MPEG2 processing, the iDCT (Inverse Discrete Cosine Transform) and motion compensation. There is still a lot of work done by the CPU, and a lot of data going across the PCI and AGP bus.

[HiDefDon]

Does anyone know how/if ATI HDTV Wonder plans to enforce the Broadcast Flag requirement? I understood that these types of products will need to comply starting next summer and that products after that time would not be allowed to transfer unencrypted data on the open PCI bus. Does this mean the product will contain a time bomb which gets activated next year?

DonP

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by HiDefDon
Does anyone know how/if ATI HDTV Wonder plans to enforce the Broadcast Flag requirement? I understood that these types of products will need to comply starting next summer and that products after that time would not be allowed to transfer unencrypted data on the open PCI bus. Does this mean the product will contain a time bomb which gets activated next year?

DonP

That IS the $64k question.

[Rick Guynn]

Originally posted by tji
I'm not sure what you mean by DX9 specific calls for DxVA. What was added for MPEG2 processing in DxVA for Dx9?

ATI has had acceleration in their cards for a long time now. But, even with DxVA, that's a much different processing situation than with a full hardware decoder like the MyHD.

DxVA (at least the older DxVA) just addresses parts of the MPEG2 processing, the iDCT (Inverse Discrete Cosine Transform) and motion compensation. There is still a lot of work done by the CPU, and a lot of data going across the PCI and AGP bus.

I have no real idea. It was the only possibility I could think of to explain why they would pick the 9500 as a minimum requirement. The biggest difference between the 9500 and previous Radeons is that the 9500 has DX9 support in hardware. So I was guessing that whatever they have done with the new HD card requires such a feature....

RG

[Jagercola]

Can I pick up QAM HDTV and Off-The-Air ATSC Signals with this card?

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by Jagercola
Can I pick up QAM HDTV and Off-The-Air ATSC Signals with this card?

The ATI press release does not indicate it supports cable QAM.

[xortam]

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
That IS the $64k question.

... and not a question left unasked by me when I decided to order the myHD card while I can. My soon to be LCD/HDTV HP monitor (waiting shipment) doesn't support HDCP either.

[Kei Clark]

My soon to be LCD/HDTV HP monitor (waiting shipment) doesn't support HDCP either.

Nearly none of the LCD PC monitors with DVI support HDCP, which is going to become a problem in the future. Well, at least all have VGA.

[madpoet]

Which is interesting, given how so many of the recent LCD projectors do. *shrug*

[araghava]

will this card support true PVR capabilities. i.e. watch one program while recording another (maybe same). none of the existing HDTV seem to support this capability.

[Kei Clark]

Licensing for several hundred thousand monitors can get very expensive, especially if the feature is not used and little understood.

What will be interesting in the future is the consumer that will expect this stuff to work because they don't understand HDCP.

So, is there any real information available yet on BF? I thought that you could still record to hard disk but the data would somehow be watermarked.

[Mntneer]

Originally posted by Kei Clark
Licensing for several hundred thousand monitors can get very expensive, especially if the feature is not used and little understood.

What will be interesting in the future is the consumer that will expect this stuff to work because they don't understand HDCP.

So, is there any real information available yet on BF? I thought that you could still record to hard disk but the data would somehow be watermarked.

I'm wondering if there will be class action lawsuits filed by people that are promised HD, advertised HD, pay for HD, but end up getting down rezed material because they have older equipment that isn't HDCP compatible.

[quote]Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
____________________________________________________________

As this uses the same basic interface updated for HDTV as the AIW, you cannot use a 9800 AIW and this card together at the same time.

I am not sure if that means it will work with a 9800 AIW as the main video card or not.
____________________________________________________________


What's up with this? I bought the over-priced hot enough to fry an egg on AIW 9800 because I was led to believe from the previews that the ATI HDTV card would only be available for use with newer AIW cards.

Even though the Micro$oft guys are probably on this forum to push their agenda. At least they are hear to answer questions and get input. Where are the ATI guys when you need a straight answer? Oh yeah, counting those record profits!

[Jagercola]

I still don't think the big question is what happens with the broadcast flag goes up. The hardware will still work, they just may be limited on how many they can sell from that point forward. The big question is....

.....Will it support QAM?

[HDTVFanAtic]

Wish you guys (and gals) had asked me this while I still in Vegas. Great questions but I Just got home. I tried to think of everything I could while there - but I will admit I missed some issues.

As I think I stated, I told ATI I thought they had great hardware but their software sucked from my experiences - though most people I know believe the software for the 9800 AIW was a quantum leap for them.

As for QAM, I doubt it, as they said it was only going to do OTA broadcast in HD. It does have the 2 connectors on the back just as MyHD does (one for OTA, the other for a cable box).

I LOVE my MyHD card and would actually buy more of them (and still might if the side by side comparison of the ATI HDTV Wonder Card proves MyHD is better). I just continue to have annoying software issues.

If ATI doesn't have those issues and the same or better Quality at a lower price, then I'm gone.

As many have noted, the ability to stop live HDTV and pick it up without loosing anything is a key here over the MyHD card for most people used to TIVO.

OK....for the Overscan issue - this actually has nothing to do with the HDTV Wonder, but the 9500+ Radeon Family. Yes, you can use powerstrip now. The latest Radeon drivers released allow you to customize the settings more than in the past. Broadcast norm was for 15% overscan, so that's what they provided for Industry Spec.

They realize that now people have this issue on the HTPCs and intend to have settings in forthcoming drivers for the Radeon Family that will allow you to get rid of the problem completely.

[tji]

Originally posted by Jagercola
Will it support QAM?

I think this article was linked in other threads here: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1528445,00.asp


The card uses the NXT2004 chip, which is QAM capable.

The software for this card is being developed in ATI's silicon valley office. One of the people involved has posted on a SF Bay area HDTV forum. He can't provide much information, but when asked about the QAM capabilties, he pasted the line from the above article saying the NXT2004 is QAM capable. Not a definite answer.. but a pretty strong hint.

[The Jedi]

As this uses the same basic interface updated for HDTV as the AIW, you cannot use a 9800 AIW and this card together at the same time.

I am not sure if that means it will work with a 9800 AIW as the main video card or not - or just the TV features of the AIW. I could see how the hardware might conflict.

I think what was probably meant was no dual-tuner MulTView for picture-in-picture.

They said in the press release that it should be out in April. I find this disappointing that it's not coming out in April, but then from a quality perspective, it is good that they're doing the right thing polishing up the drivers (4-6 weeks) instead of just releasing it as they have done in the past.

A $110 MSRP would be remarkable if true.

So, is there any real information available yet on BF? I thought that you could still record to hard disk but the data would somehow be watermarked.

Watermarked? Downrezzed to DVD quality? I wish I just knew what to expect.

I wish I knew if anyone had any intention of making a BF-compatible card. Some caveats with such a card would be: Media Center/ AccessDTV-like encryption of recordings and tying to the PC recorded on/card recorded with. That said, we enthusiasts would still at least enjoy the rights to our TV viewing that we expect.

Intel's very latest (maybe some AMD stuff too) supports an encryption method in the chipset itself by way of a "Trusted Platform Module". This is supposedly a method of DRM. Presumably if the tuner card was designed with a compatible cipher chip, the PCI bus transactions would be secure. And since the AGP bus is separate and uses only a single video card, maybe the tuner card and Trusted chipset/CPU would be the only considerations. ...or maybe you would need a Trusted video card too. Maybe you would need the next generation Windows too, but maybe it'll happen.

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by tji
I think this article was linked in other threads here: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1528445,00.asp


The card uses the NXT2004 chip, which is QAM capable.

The software for this card is being developed in ATI's silicon valley office. One of the people involved has posted on a SF Bay area HDTV forum. He can't provide much information, but when asked about the QAM capabilties, he pasted the line from the above article saying the NXT2004 is QAM capable. Not a definite answer.. but a pretty strong hint.

If it was intended to have QAM support in the software don’t you think ATI would be shouting it from a mountain top? It would be a dumb move not to do so!

[HDTVFanAtic]

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
If it was intended to have QAM support in the software don’t you think ATI would be shouting it from a mountain top? It would be a dumb move not to do so!

Cliff is most likey right on the money.

I was standing beside a person who lived on Maui and he asked if the HDTV Wonder would do cable. She replied "no that the FCC said 100% of the US Population could receive at least 1 HD signal" (That number is not right, btw).

I jumped in and said that as far as I know, Oceanic Time Warner has some HD signals in Honolulu, the OTA stations have not gone HD in Anchorage or Honolulu because of the Government Monitoring Station and low level of interference they require in these 2 markets. This has also stalled HD Radio in these markets.

I stated I was aware that a translator on the Big Island in Hilo had gone HD, however I did not believe the translators on Maui were HD yet.

The only reason I bring this up is that she never jumped in and said "we have plans to support QAM" or anything that would have given this guy any hope of this working.

Thus, I believe her statement of only supporting OTA broadcast is pretty accurate for the future.

I can also tell you I asked about a HDTV AIW - and while they would not discuss future products - the did indicate that if it happened, it would not be this year.

[SteveRo]

Cliff, Should we all be buying backup MyHD-120s?!?

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by SteveRo
Cliff, Should we all be buying backup MyHD-120s?!?

At least before 1 July 2005.

[SteveRo]

Cliff, Perhaps you can't answer this but I'm going to ask anyway: 1. Is there any plan for a MyHD-150? (name your favorite number - card with improved h/w for either decode or more sensitive reception) OR 2. Will the MyHD-120 be available off shore and still shipable to a US address?

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by SteveRo
Cliff, Perhaps you can't answer this but I'm going to ask anyway: 1. Is there any plan for a MyHD-150? (name your favorite number - card with improved h/w for either decode or more sensitive reception) OR 2. Will the MyHD-120 be available off shore and still shipable to a US address?

SteveRo,

1) MIT has not told me of any plan to release a different card.

2) I'm sure MyHD will still be made and sold somewhere after that date.

[xortam]

Originally posted by Kei Clark
Nearly none of the LCD PC monitors with DVI support HDCP, which is going to become a problem in the future. Well, at least all have VGA.

I'm in the process of getting a 23" WS LCD monitor/HDTV (ordered but not shipped). This monitor is just a stop-gap solution for me to watch DTV while waiting for the large 1080p RPTV which I should purchase by year end. I figured I can watch HDTV on this monitor for a while before I get tripped up by HDCP and I'll then have the HDCP RPTV before it becomes a problem. Ultimately, the "little" LCD will be used as a computer display but its plethora of video inputs (all A/D video connections) make for a very versatile TV to move about the house. I can always revert to VGA or component on this monitor if need be but I'm purchasing all new video equipment that allows for straight digital path of video through to the display screen.

[clamrade]

This makes it sound like you NEED AIW to enable certain features using HDTV Wonder.

[Kei Clark]

xortam,

Don't get me wrong, I haven't missed HDCP yet, and will most likely never as I have a 1080i>1080p scaler that's perfect for my 23" (1920x1200) that works on VGA/Component sources but not DVI/HDCP. But, alot of people will get a surprise if they're not up on HDCP and mistaken purchases will be made. HDTV has been confusing enough already for the general public, this is yet another roadblock in the march.

Originally posted by clamrade
This makes it sound like you NEED AIW to enable certain features using HDTV Wonder.

That's the way I read it.
It also sounds as if it's available now?
It's not.

[PGHammer]

Originally posted by clamrade
This makes it sound like you NEED AIW to enable certain features using HDTV Wonder.

While an AIW isn't necessary (only the latest version of MMC), it *can* directly replace the tuner features of an AIW series card (specifically any of the following: AIW 9600XT, 9700, 9700 Pro, 9800 Pro, and a possible forthcoming 9800 XT). The target audience (at least initially) is current owners of 9600XT, 9700/9700Pro/9800/9800Pro/9800XT and their AIW variants.

It can use either the original Remote Wonder or Remote Wonder II.

The tuner section is designed as a *superset* of the AIW 9600XT's new tuner section (adding OTA HD reception capability). It does *not* have YPbPr *inputs* (and so cannot connect to a satellite or HD cable box via YPbPr). What I would *prefer* is a YPbPr input *daughtercard* for the AIW series that enables the use of YPbPr as a second component-style input option.

Oh, well.

[clamrade]

How do you know that the 9600 (not XT or Pro) is excluded?

Also, I am not sure it replaces the analog tuner. I am thinking the HDTV Wonder will augment it.

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by clamrade
Also, I am not sure it replaces the analog tuner. I am thinking the HDTV Wonder will augment it.

I think you're right. Both tuners would be needed for PIP.

[HDTVFanAtic]

Wish I had gotten clarification on the AIW issue. I read what is said above, but at the same time, looking at my remote control, if a AIW was in the system, there is only 1 control for a TV. As they both use the same remote control settings, how would the machine know which tuner you were addressing if both were active. It would appear they would conflict with each other. Furthermore, as you have 2 inputs on the HDTV Wonder, they must assume you would have no further use for the tuner in the AIW.

That's my assumption - and it's just that - an assumption.

[chap]

While the HD card has 2 tuners, it doesn't look like it has space for there standard purple breakout box, or the audio input cable. I think that card has to work in conjunction with something which I assume would be a normal AIW.

[HDTVFanAtic]

We are talking about $110 HDTV card - Not a $350+ AIW. As all the video output is handled by the main video card and audio via the soundcard in computer, nor does it record external souces - only OTA, it has no need for those items you mentioned.

[Cliff Watson]

"While the HD card has 2 tuners,"

Are you sure its not one tuner with 2 RF connectors?

[HDTVFanAtic]

For $110 I don't see how they can have 2 tuners. Nothing was said about 2 tuners on the card in the discussions I had with the ATI people.

[chap]

The 2 tuners was a guess since it has 2 coax inputs. I am making the assumption that it is liek the hi-pix. One for HD and one for regular signals. Of course that is just an assumption.

[HDTVFanAtic]

No, I can tell you it is like the MyHD card. One input for an antenna on your roof and one for a cable box.

[trbarry]

I don't think any of the PCHD cards have 2 tuners, just two f-connectors with a switch.

- Tom

[xortam]

Are there compatibility problems with putting two tuner cards into the same PC? Say an MDP-120 with a MDP-100 (or another 120). How about an MDP-120 and a Fusion card, etc.?

[HDTVFanAtic]

Cliff had said in another thread that the MyHD software that supported 2 tuners was so old he would not recommend it.

I use an ATI 9800 AIW in the same box as a MyHD 120 with no issues.

You might want to contact digitalconnection or copperbox about the other combinations of 2 HD units in the same box.

[jimwhite]

2 HD cards is probably okay as long as they are not both based on the Janus chipset..

[Cliff Watson]

i use a MyHD card and a FusionHDTV III Gold card in the same computer.

[HiDefDon]

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
i use a MyHD card and a FusionHDTV III Gold card in the same computer.

Can the MyHD card play files which were recorded by Fusion3 and vice versa? What about HDTV Wonder data files?

I have a HiDTV card and really like it but since it is not being sold/supported anymore, I am planning to get a MyHD, Fusion3, or ATI HDTV Wonder for another PC. I need to make sure the HiDTV card can play files which are recorded by whichever card is in my second PC.

Thanks.
DonP