Marquette, MI - HDTV

[Hoser Eh]

I get CBS, NBC, PBS and FOX (3,6,13 and 19) analog with rabbit ears on my circa 1983 RCA.

I went to W-Mart and got the Magnavox CECB and hooked it up to the TV and rabbit ears and let it scan and I got PBS Digital (fake channel 13) I tried NBC, CBS, and FOX on their real channels and fake channels and got nothing.

I beleive Fox 19 is going to flash cut so dont bother there. CBS does not have their digital transmitter online on the Trenary tower yet so you wont get that either. NBC (TV6) has their digital antenna hundreds of feet lower and tens of KWs less power than their analog so dont expect to get that in Marquette either.

Unless you just want to watch PBS I would get a box with analog pass with your coupons. I took the box back to W-Mart.

Dont get a box without analog pass!

[wb8tgy]

Thanks for the update from the U.P.

From looking at some of the coverage maps for the stations up there I really have to wonder how many folks up there are going to get more than one or two stations after the switch over to digital.

[jefbal99]

Holy crap, i didn't know the U.P. had internet connections

Good to here from our brothers from the north

I'll PM CPanther95 and have him make this the official Marquette thread and tie it to the post with all the DMA listings.

Watch for a possible thread title change to make it inline with other local threads

[swiat]

I just put up a channel master 3018 (I think) with 7778 preamp on the top of the garage on a 5 foot mast in West Ishpeming. My mother in law now gets 3-WJMN, 6-WLUC, 10-WBUP, 13-WNMU, 19-WMQF, channel 14 (snowy) channel 17, and sometimes a snowy... this is not a joke either... 26 WGBA from Green Bay. 1400' elevation must be the reason why. No WBKP from Calumet though. What an idiotic decision to put channel 5 on up there... 5 and 6 very often wipe out each other. There's not enough channel separation between the two. Channel 4 would have been better.

I didn't check the digital stations. A few of the Western/Central U.P. digital stations will flash cut to only digital on 2/19/09. So, I'll evaluate them then.

[mstamp]

Hello UP TV Viewers,

I work at WNMU-TV (channel 13) in Marquette and I wanted to let you know that we are happy to answer questions about our digital conversion plans. We are offering a DTV newsletter that can be downloaded from our web site, wnmutv.nmu.edu. Check out our DTV pages for updates, resources and other links.

If you are setting up a DTV converter box or digital television set, it might help to know:

- we are currently broadcasting low-power digital on ch. 33 (UHF) from a tower located in Marquette township (Morgan Meadows).

- on 2/17/2009 we plan to convert to broadcasting full-power digital on channel 13 (VHF) from our Ely Township tower.

- after the conversion, we hope to cover roughly the same coverage area as we do currently, but if you are located in a fringe area where reception is intermittant you may find it necessary to upgrade your antenna.

If you have any specific questions, we'd be happy to try to answer them. You'll find contact information at the link above.

[Hoser Eh]

Originally Posted by mstamp

Hello UP TV Viewers,

I work at WNMU-TV (channel 13) in Marquette and I wanted to let you know that we are happy to answer questions about our digital conversion plans. We are offering a DTV newsletter that can be downloaded from our web site, wnmutv.nmu.edu. Check out our DTV pages for updates, resources and other links.

If you are setting up a DTV converter box or digital television set, it might help to know:

- we are currently broadcasting low-power digital on ch. 33 (UHF) from a tower located in Marquette township (Morgan Meadows).

- on 2/17/2009 we plan to convert to broadcasting full-power digital on channel 13 (VHF) from our Ely Township tower.

- after the conversion, we hope to cover roughly the same coverage area as we do currently, but if you are located in a fringe area where reception is intermittant you may find it necessary to upgrade your antenna.

If you have any specific questions, we'd be happy to try to answer them. You'll find contact information at the link above.

Oh Great! Now I won't be getting any signals at all after the conversion!!
I am in a situation where all I can use are rabbit ears. I hope channel 6 at least leaves its channel 7 xmitter on for a while. I think I will buy a converter and try it and if I dont receive anything I will have to bring it back and just do without any TV.

[mstamp]

We've heard that Channel 6 (WLUC) is planning to keep their low-power analog tranmitters, so you should continue to receive channel 7 in the Marquette area after the digital conversion.

In the U.P., there will be no way to tell exactly which channels you'll be able to get off the air until after the conversion in February 2009. Some stations are still formulating their conversion plans.

Marquette has terrain issues, so I wouldn't expect much if you live in town. That's why most of us have cable! In my case (living in south Marquette) I can't receive ANY analog channels with just rabbit ears.

[swiat]

Originally Posted by mstamp

We've heard that Channel 6 (WLUC) is planning to keep their low-power analog tranmitters, so you should continue to receive channel 7 in the Marquette area after the digital conversion.

In the U.P., there will be no way to tell exactly which channels you'll be able to get off the air until after the conversion in February 2009. Some stations are still formulating their conversion plans.

Marquette has terrain issues, so I wouldn't expect much if you live in town. That's why most of us have cable! In my case (living in south Marquette) I can't receive ANY analog channels with just rabbit ears.

I wonder why WLUC chose to go to UHF DT considering the terrain issues in the West/Central U.P. Seems like going to any VHF Hi station such as 7 or 8 might have been better for that reason. Plus, the UHF digital transmitter is rather weak at 83kW. Many UHF DT stations such as the ones in Milwaukee and Green Bay are at 1 MW.

[Hoser Eh]

Originally Posted by mstamp

Marquette has terrain issues, so I wouldn't expect much if you live in town. That's why most of us have cable! In my case (living in south Marquette) I can't receive ANY analog channels with just rabbit ears.

I have a circa 1983 RCA with a real hot receiver (it is one of those ones with the black plastic masks in front of the CRT) with a great picture. I know how lucky I am to have it and it gives me terrain defying performance with rabbit ears!

I am in the channel 7 coverage area and the supposed channel 6 area

CH6-
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TV302649.html

CH7-
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TX216053.html

I get channel 7 but not channel 6. I get channel 13 and channel 3 and Fox on channel 19. All these stations will have 10's of KW less power and most will have their antennas hundreds of feet lower.

HDTV/DTV will not be an improvement for me as I really believe the CECBs wont get solid signals here with rabbit ears. At least I have watchable analog signals here now.

BTW I will get cable if you pay for it

[swiat]

Originally Posted by Hoser Eh

I have a circa 1983 RCA with a real hot receiver (it is one of those ones with the black plastic masks in front of the CRT) with a great picture. I know how lucky I am to have it and it gives me terrain defying performance with rabbit ears!

I am in the channel 7 coverage area and the supposed channel 6 area

CH6-
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TV302649.html

CH7-
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TX216053.html

I get channel 7 but not channel 6. I get channel 13 and channel 3 and Fox on channel 19. All these stations will have 10's of KW less power and most will have their antennas hundreds of feet lower.

HDTV/DTV will not be an improvement for me as I really believe the CECBs wont get solid signals here with rabbit ears. At least I have watchable analog signals here now.

BTW I will get cable if you pay for it

Yeah, probably no chance for WLUC with rabbit ears unless you are 10 miles from the tower. One thing about digital is that you can get the same coverage area with about 10% of the power due to error correction and more sensitive digital receivers. But, if stations such as WLUC choose to go to UHF, that's another matter. UHF degrades much more quickly than VHF especially over hilly terrain. So, I commend WNMU for sticking with VHF. I wish WLUC would have done the same or would jump to 670 kW instead of 67 on UHF. I believe WBUP is going to channel 10 with digital too. Channel 19, WMQF, is going to take a bit of a coverage hit with it's measly 1 kW transmitter. They're going from 500 kW analog to 1 kW digital... so theoretically, going to 50kW digital would give them similar coverage to what they have now. WJMN is licensed to 989 kW on UHF and has applied to go to 1 MW. C'mon TV6, you're going to get blown out of the water. Let's hope they upgrade sooner than later. May have to change the new slogan from "upper michigan's source" to "marquette county's source" if they don't.

[swiat]

suggestion to WNMU:
get rid of the NMU power point bulletin board and replace it with either "MHz Worldview" or "PBS World"

Otherwise, good job!

[mstamp]

Originally Posted by swiat

suggestion to WNMU:
get rid of the NMU power point bulletin board and replace it with either "MHz Worldview" or "PBS World"

Otherwise, good job!

Thanks! Our WNMU-DT programming will change in February. 13.1 will carry our primary channel lineup in SD (currently on 13.2); 13.2 will be all-HD from PBS; and 13.3 will be a delayed PBS feed to give viewers an alternate PBS schedule. This lineup may change again in the future, as more programming is upgraded to HD. WNMU will also begin 24-hour broadcasts on February 18.

Our digital transmissions will be coming from our Ely tower after the conversion, and they will be on channel 13. Channel 33 will go away. Viewers will have to re-scan for our new channels on 2/18. We expect to cover about the same broadcast area as analog 13 does now.

If you have any questions about WNMU-TV, the DTV conversion, or DTV in the Upper Peninsula we are glad to answer. You can email us at dtv13@nmu.edu.

--
Melinda Stamp
WNMU-TV

[lexus2108]

Originally Posted by Hoser Eh

I have a circa 1983 RCA with a real hot receiver (it is one of those ones with the black plastic masks in front of the CRT) with a great picture. I know how lucky I am to have it and it gives me terrain defying performance with rabbit ears!

I am in the channel 7 coverage area and the supposed channel 6 area

CH6-
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TV302649.html

CH7-
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=TX216053.html

I get channel 7 but not channel 6. I get channel 13 and channel 3 and Fox on channel 19. All these stations will have 10's of KW less power and most will have their antennas hundreds of feet lower.

HDTV/DTV will not be an improvement for me as I really believe the CECBs wont get solid signals here with rabbit ears. At least I have watchable analog signals here now.

BTW I will get cable if you pay for it

Since no one else will say it. I will. It is your Antenna it is not good at all. Time for a new antenna and to use RG6 Coaxial Cable to connect to box. If you want to watch real stations this is your only choice. It is more your antenna then the box you choose. My aunt loves the TERK-55, but there are other choices out there. There is a thread on here that talks just about antenna's

Also as far as passthru you have more then a few choices

1) dtvpal with best tv guide like feature (avail in sears) Passthru is one button push on remote

2) Channel Master CM-7000

3) RCA (turn off box for passthru)

4) Zennith (turn off box for passthru)

5) I believe the apex and Zinwell ZAT-970A? also with passthru but not sure on those two. You need to look into it


Hope this helps. Remember Digital is a all or none proposition. What used to pass in analog with snow or waves will not here. I am 100% convinced it is your BAD antenna

[swiat]

Originally Posted by lexus2108

Since no one else will say it. I will. It is your Antenna it is not good at all. Time for a new antenna and to use RG6 Coaxial Cable to connect to box. If you want to watch real stations this is your only choice. It is more your antenna then the box you choose. My aunt loves the TERK-55, but there are other choices out there. There is a thread on here that talks just about antenna's

Good points. If you get a nice outdoor antenna this won't be as much of an issue and if you get a rotator you might be lucky enough to pull in WBKP from Houghton.

[lexus2108]

Originally Posted by swiat

Good points. If you get a nice outdoor antenna this won't be as much of an issue and if you get a rotator you might be lucky enough to pull in WBKP from Houghton.

Can she put an outdoor antenna up? if so that is the best

[Ken H]

Topic moved to HDTV Locals Forum.

[fleegs79]

Looks like Charter is adding 3 new HD channels today. They are on the channel guide, but say "To Be Announced."

766 - Smithsonian HD
768 - TBS HD
769 - CNN HD

Now if we could just get the local ABC/FOX stations.

[swiat]

Originally Posted by fleegs79

Looks like Charter is adding 3 new HD channels today. They are on the channel guide, but say "To Be Announced."

766 - Smithsonian HD
768 - TBS HD
769 - CNN HD

Now if we could just get the local ABC/FOX stations.

DirecTV had that over a year and a half ago. Man, Charter is SLOOOOOOWW to the HD game.

[swiat]

Bad news. WMQF has filed for bankruptcy
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=81448

This means it will shut down analog 19 on 2/17 and NOT be in digital either.
This is what happens when you let WLUK into your market, have no local advertising revenue, and have a small coverage footprint. It's still sad that OTA FOX programming will not be available in the west and central UP in the coming weeks.

[Jon Ellis]

This situation is more related to Equity's overall financial problems. However, those problems may be related to the way Equity has run its local stations such as WMQF.

It should be noted that WLUK existed for decades before WMQF came along, and WMQF can't get rid of them since WLUK is listed as significantly viewed across the Marquette market (cable systems can carry stations that are significantly viewed without blackouts regardless of whether there's an in-market affiliate).

WMQF may actually still exist on cable even if the broadcast signal is off the air completely. Most, if not all, of the cable systems get the WMQF feed via satellite (unscrambled coast-to-coast on Galaxy 18).

[iowegian3]

Originally Posted by swiat

C'mon TV6, you're going to get blown out of the water. Let's hope they upgrade sooner than later. May have to change the new slogan from "upper michigan's source" to "marquette county's source" if they don't.

Seeing the talk here about WLUC being a low power DTV on UHF triggered a brain burp: Is Barrington Bdcsting (WLUC's owner) giving the shaft to their low-band VHF stations?

Syracuse NY ADI #81 WSTM-TV analog 3 (permanent)DTV 24...no
41.9 kW ERP at 396 m HAAT v. 210 kW ERP at 393 m HAAT,

Harlingen TX ADI #87 KBGT analog 4 DTV 31...no
100 kW ERP at 396 m HAAT v. 1000 kW ERP at 368 m HAAT,

Traverse City/Cadillac MI ADI #117 WTOM analog 4 DTV 35...YES
100 kW ERP at 189 m HAAT v. 78.0 kW ERP at 168 m HAAT,

Marquette MI ADI #180 WLUC analog 6 DTV 35...YES
100 kW ERP at 296 m HAAT v. 63.0 kW ERP at 257 m HAAT,

Ottumwa IA / Kirksville MO #200 KTVO analog 3 DTV 33...YES
100 kW ERP at 339 m HAAT v. 87.0 kW ERP at 290 m HAAT,

Barrington recently had to have its credit facility repaired. In short, the company wasn't meeting liquidity requirements, so its equity capital funder had to dump in extra cash to fix the problem. Maybe that explains the whole problem.

The top 2 mkts were under #100, so that might explain why Barrington arranged more juice for them (maybe they or the former owners had to, not sure about particulars of FCC directive on this) The others clearly weren't required to have digitals upgraded to maximums, and they weren't.

At least in the Marquette market, viewers who lose WLUC post analog will have other choices. But for a few north Missouri counties that will lose KTVO post analog, viewers had better gather 'round their radios!

So, what is it? Is Barrington mgmt. short-sighted or "dumb like a fox?"

[itsthemultipath!]

Originally Posted by iowegian3

Seeing the talk here about WLUC being a low power DTV on UHF triggered a brain burp: Is Barrington Bdcsting (WLUC's owner) giving the shaft to their low-band VHF stations?

Syracuse NY ADI #81 WSTM-TV analog 3 (permanent)DTV 24...no
41.9 kW ERP at 396 m HAAT v. 210 kW ERP at 393 m HAAT,

Harlingen TX ADI #87 KBGT analog 4 DTV 31...no
100 kW ERP at 396 m HAAT v. 1000 kW ERP at 368 m HAAT,

Traverse City/Cadillac MI ADI #117 WTOM analog 4 DTV 35...YES
100 kW ERP at 189 m HAAT v. 78.0 kW ERP at 168 m HAAT,

Marquette MI ADI #180 WLUC analog 6 DTV 35...YES
100 kW ERP at 296 m HAAT v. 63.0 kW ERP at 257 m HAAT,

Ottumwa IA / Kirksville MO #200 KTVO analog 3 DTV 33...YES
100 kW ERP at 339 m HAAT v. 87.0 kW ERP at 290 m HAAT,

Barrington recently had to have its credit facility repaired. In short, the company wasn't meeting liquidity requirements, so its equity capital funder had to dump in extra cash to fix the problem. Maybe that explains the whole problem.

The top 2 mkts were under #100, so that might explain why Barrington arranged more juice for them (maybe they or the former owners had to, not sure about particulars of FCC directive on this) The others clearly weren't required to have digitals upgraded to maximums, and they weren't.

At least in the Marquette market, viewers who lose WLUC post analog will have other choices. But for a few north Missouri counties that will lose KTVO post analog, viewers had better gather 'round their radios!

So, what is it? Is Barrington mgmt. short-sighted or "dumb like a fox?"

How about POOR?

Most of their stations are not only in small markets, but are "third-fiddle" in the markets they are in (WLUC is an exception).

Marquette presents a special challenge to OTA television, especially UHF. The city is in a "bowl", with Lake Superior to it's East, and a high plateau (about 500' higher in elevation) otherwise surrounding the city. When I've been to Marquette, I notice that WLUC's analog channel 6 is quite weak. It is city grade on paper, but the city grade signal, in reality, passes over "the bowl". W07DB is there for a good reason.
Regulations about "city grade" coverage work against Marquette. You can build a single TL to serve Marquette, or a single TL to serve much of the land mass of the UP, but not one single site can serve both. If the FCC would allow the city grade signal of a -translator- to provide service to a designated city, one could logically place UHF translators (nowadays, DT) on the hillside overlooking Marquette (e.g., near the TL of WDMJ AM 1320, or even one of the smoke stacks of the UPPCO plant), and have the wide area, full power transmitters centrally located in the UP, even though they won't provide a usable signal to Marquette.

Those complaining about Barrington building weaker digital facilities haven't heard the worst of it. They've asked the FCC for permission to operate the WPBN-DT 7 digital facility with 500 watts instead of 15,400! (check it out fcc.gov-> Search -> TV station query -> WPBN

[Trip in VA]

What you describe is called "DTS" and is allowed in the world of digital. A network of transmitters, all on the same channel, covering areas of rough terrain.

And as for the WPBN thing, that's because WPBN can't get approval for the 15.4 kW. It'll interfere severely with WOOD-DT in Grand Rapids. The FCC never should have allowed WPBN to have channel 7 post-transition in the first place.

- Trip

[itsthemultipath!]

Originally Posted by Trip in VA

What you describe is called "DTS" and is allowed in the world of digital. A network of transmitters, all on the same channel, covering areas of rough terrain.

And as for the WPBN thing, that's because WPBN can't get approval for the 15.4 kW. It'll interfere severely with WOOD-DT in Grand Rapids. The FCC never should have allowed WPBN to have channel 7 post-transition in the first place.

- Trip

Yes, when I saw WPBN's original request for 15.4kW from Harrieta, I was thinking to myself it would be a WOOD/WPBN dogfight!
One could argue that WOOD should not have been given channel 7, since WPBN was there first. For that matter, WOOD is proving to be a thorn in the side of WJBK Detroit, as well.

As for DTS in Marquette, that might cause too much interference "on the rim", the tablelands surrounding Marquette. Translators on different channels would be justified, as there is no shortage of vacant spectrum up there. I've done the (wonderful) vacant channel search on your website for several locations in Upper Michigan - other than highband VHF, it's hard to find a channel that is not available!

[Jon Ellis]

Abandoning VHF Low (channels 2-6) for UHF isn't unique to Barrington Broadcasting, most stations are leaving VHF Low. There will only be about five dozen stations on VHF Low after the transition, compared with hundreds now. This is because VHF Low is harder to receive with indoor antennas and is more susceptible to e-skip (signals bouncing off the e layer of the atmosphere during summer months and going thousands of miles, interfering with other stations).

In fact, moving from VHF Low to UHF actually represents an increase in electric costs because the maximum ERP for VHF Low analog is 100kW, while the max for UHF DTV is 1000kW (but many UHF DTV stations are operating at less power, resulting in smaller coverage areas).

[iowegian3]

WLUC terrain problems puts 'em in a fix,it seems. Will have to wait and see if apps for translators or DTS are forthcoming.

I'm guessing that, in the small markets, such low band full power VHF to low power UHF DTV situations may be tolerated for a year or two. Afterwards, this type of operation could be "license-challenge" bait.

(or would it just be "stink bait?")

[swiat]

Originally Posted by iowegian3

WLUC terrain problems puts 'em in a fix,it seems. Will have to wait and see if apps for translators or DTS are forthcoming.

I'm guessing that, in the small markets, such low band full power VHF to low power UHF DTV situations may be tolerated for a year or two. Afterwards, this type of operation could be "license-challenge" bait.

(or would it just be "stink bait?")

analog translators from channels 2-51 aren't required to sign off when the cutoff date comes. The signoff only applies to full power analog stations (WLUC, WJMN, WBKP, WBUP). So, Analog 7 will still be on from what I can tell.

BTW, Obama will sign a bill extending the analog signoff date until June 12th.

[swiat]

Originally Posted by Jon Ellis

This situation is more related to Equity's overall financial problems. However, those problems may be related to the way Equity has run its local stations such as WMQF.

It should be noted that WLUK existed for decades before WMQF came along, and WMQF can't get rid of them since WLUK is listed as significantly viewed across the Marquette market (cable systems can carry stations that are significantly viewed without blackouts regardless of whether there's an in-market affiliate).

WMQF may actually still exist on cable even if the broadcast signal is off the air completely. Most, if not all, of the cable systems get the WMQF feed via satellite (unscrambled coast-to-coast on Galaxy 18).

The problem is that there is no over the air (OTA) FOX option. WLUK is only significantly viewed because there was no other local cable option for the longest time. And, significantly viewed over Charter cable who's lines aren't in a large part of the market. You can't get FOX without cable and that is a sad state for the Central U.P. Not too many other places in the country that don't have FOX over the air. Heck, even in the Eastern U.P. FOX is on digital 10.2 now.

I just think Equity went into the game half-hearted. If they had a better transmitter and some local commercials for revenue, and then challenged WLUK for viewers by being a Packer station, the Marquette market could have chucked the Green Bay station for a local one and over the air and cable customers could have been served.

Either that or WLUK should put up a local mirrored over the air station like WJMN is a mirror of WFRV. It seems to work well.

[fleegs79]

Speaking of FOX stations, Charter added WLUK to their HD lineup today on channel 781.

[iowegian3]

Originally Posted by swiat

analog translators from channels 2-51 aren't required to sign off when the cutoff date comes. The signoff only applies to full power analog stations (WLUC, WJMN, WBKP, WBUP). So, Analog 7 will still be on from what I can tell.

BTW, Obama will sign a bill extending the analog signoff date until June 12th.

Sorry, but I wasn't speaking about the sign-off of any translators. Rather it was about the need of channel 6 to add translators or DTS so their digital will eventually be able to closely match their old analog signal.