AVS High Definition(sic) Sat (D*and E*), Cable, OTA, FIOS and EU screenshots thread

[Xylon]

****Big Files****

This thread is open to anyone who can do digital screengrabs from HD sources. Almost 2 years ago I made a D* and E* screenshot thread and we get to see the result of HD Lite against FULL HD 1920 x 1080 at max bitrate. At that time E*, cable and OTA was in full HD but the demand for more channels has forced providers to go HD Lite.

E* VOOM channels went 1280 x 1080 from 1920 x 1080 17 mbps. Other HD channels stayed at FULL HD. Discovery, HDNET and HDNETM were at 17 mbps.

OTA station starts multicasting reducing bitrates resulting in more artifacting (macroblocking) in the picture.

Cable COs starts rate-shaping giving less bandwidth on some HD channels. A movie that has 17 mbps at one night can get 10 mbps the next.

E* went HD-Lite 1440 x 1080 on their Mpeg-2 channels. The newer HD channels Mpeg-4 or h.264 is also HD-Lite. 1440 x 1080 on some 720p on others. Bit rates on some these channels are in single digits. STARZ HD in some days is at 5 mbps

D* even after moving their HD channels to h.264 (some are still in Mpeg-2) is still HD-Lite bit starved PQ.

Can it get any worse? Yes, unfortunately looking at BFDTVs Comcast vs FIOS thread it can. Can FIOS provide real HD PQ to anyone who wants it? Unfortunately unlike other providers its a new technology that still being rolled out in your cities. Much like cable back then the infrastracture is still being built and it may take years for it to get to your neighborhood.

To those who can post them with their own image hosting site. Here are some:


Guidelines

Use MPC (Media Player Classic) for playback. You can use Dscaler filter for Mpeg-2 (Film based) and Haali Media splitter for h.264 files (its fine for Mpeg-2 also).

Save image as BMP file NOT JPEG. Open Photoshop, Save for Web & Devices:

1. If you are going to use JPEG make sure the quality is at 100% and Optimized selected. Bicubic quality.

2. If you are going to use PNG (preferred), use PNG-24. Bicubic quality.

Always preserve the original resolution of the screencaps. NO DOWNSCALING. 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 only. And also if you can indicate the time of recording and MPEG2Repairlog.


All HD screenshots from 2001 to the present are welcome. We mix the good with the very bad I understand that not all of us has more than one provider so just post what you have. A same frame screenshot can be posted by another member who has access to it if possible.

[Xylon]

reserved

[Xylon]

Star Wars

HBO Mpeg-2 -------------------------------------------------------->---------------------------------------------------------------->---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Sky HD

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 7.79 GB, Play Time: 02h:04m:41s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.18 fps Telecine), 18.00 Mbps (8.26 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 41.70 KB/Frame, 0.16 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
4 of 180863 video frames found with errors.
0 of 233790 audio frames found with errors.
3364 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

Sky HD H.264

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 14.56 GB, Play Time: 01h:59m:43s
25.00 FPS (Average), 16.61 Mbps (Average).
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 224483 audio frames found with errors.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

[Xylon]

Miss USA 04-11-08

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 10.06 GB, Play Time: 01h:30m:23s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 65.00 Mbps (15.08 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 61.44 KB/Frame, 0.24 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -22.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 162558 video frames found with errors.
0 of 169493 audio frames found with errors.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

[Xylon]

E* TBS 4-11-08

*Partial log*

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 8.17 GB, Play Time: 01h:15m:47s
1440 x 1080 59.94 FPS (Average), 7.12 Mbps (Average).
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 448 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 142107 audio frames found with errors.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

E* HBO 02-05-07

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 16.86 GB, Play Time: 03h:07m:13s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (26.25 fps Telecine), 18.00 Mbps (12.12 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 56.37 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
3 of 294877 video frames found with errors.
0 of 351050 audio frames found with errors.
2402 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

[Xylon]

Tournament Of Roses 01-01-08

ABC OTA

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 9.12 GB, Play Time: 01h:28m:39s
1280 x 720, 59.94 fps, 80.00 Mbps (13.91 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 28.32 KB/Frame, 0.25 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 318863 video frames found with errors.
0 of 166219 audio frames found with errors.
0 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

KTLA OTA

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 14.94 GB, Play Time: 02h:00m:00s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 17.00 Mbps (16.93 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 68.98 KB/Frame, 0.27 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
296 of 215803 video frames found with errors.
1 of 225020 audio frames found with errors.
722399 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.066733 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.064000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

[A_Dude]

Can we please lose the "(sic)" and "HD-lite" bull* ?

All MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 Digital Video Are Lossey. The technique used is to remove data based on algorithms that remove data considered to be unnecessary for the illusion that you are watching the particular scene.

To conclude that particular numbers are necessary for a convincing illusion, is contrary to the lossey methods used in digital video.

Another persistent urban myth is that still frames can be used to compare lossey video. Again, this is contrary to the method used in lossey video. (A rough analogy is someone choosing one particular baseball game in a 162 game season as demonstrating that a particular team is incompetent - every championship team has more than game each season when they played poorly.)

As I type this, I am watching Equator Voom HD channel on Dish Network. A program about the Canadian Rockies was airing. Many scenes were visually indistinguishable from a pane of glass placed in the same location. (Shot by Raven HD Productions Ltd, by the way.) Generally, the picture quality is better than my 6 foot glass window to my left.

I hate to deflate obsessive-compulsive hobbies like measuring HD instead of watching it... er, actually no I don't.

[Ken H]

Originally Posted by A_Dude

Can we please lose the "(sic)" and "HD-lite" bull* ?

Highly unlikely, because it's not bull until providers pass HD as they receive it.

[A_Dude]

Originally Posted by Ken H

Highly unlikely, because it's not bull until providers pass HD as they receive it.

Classic Internet Response.

Poster: " A is wrong, because of B, C, D and E."

Responder: " No, A is right."

The concept "as they receive it" is an obsessive-compulsive "collector" emotional concept, which has nothing to do with the engineering of providing a convincing illusion of visual perception.

Note that the video is never presented to you "as photographed" because that would take roughly 100 times the bandwidth of OTA channels.

[Ken H]

Originally Posted by A_Dude

Classic Internet Response.

Poster: " A is wrong, because of B, C, D and E."

Responder: " No, A is right."

The concept "as they receive it" is an obsessive-compulsive "collector" emotional concept, which has nothing to do with the engineering of providing a convincing illusion of visual perception.

Note that the video is never presented to you "as photographed" because that would take roughly 100 times the bandwidth of OTA channels.

Nope, but keep trying.

[NetworkTV]

Originally Posted by A_Dude

Can we please...

(sic)

I hate to deflate obsessive-compulsive hobbies like measuring HD instead of watching it... er, actually no I don't.

You are so on the wrong forum...

[Ken H]

A_Dude,

I've been in the professional video business since 1987. I first saw HD in 1989, and have been watching HD on a regular basis in my home since 2000. I know what I see, and I pretty much know all about how HD is made and delivered to the end user.

The problem is what providers are doing to HD image quality. It's a real problem. If you can't see it, fine, be happy. The rest of us here will continue to try and fight the good fight.

[RTK]

I haven't checked in a while but The Science Channel on Dish had recently gone back to 1920x1080 whereas the rest of their HD was 1440x1080. As has been correctly stated many times, resolution is just one factor in picture quality. I'd grab a screen shot although without a comparable image at a different resolution/bitrate or from a different provider, I'm not sure it would provide much value.

Thanks Xylon for making this thread.

[Xylon]

Originally Posted by RTK

I haven't checked in a while but The Science Channel on Dish had recently gone back to 1920x1080 whereas the rest of their HD was 1440x1080. As has been correctly stated many times, resolution is just one factor in picture quality. I'd grab a screen shot although without a comparable image at a different resolution/bitrate or from a different provider, I'm not sure it would provide much value.

Thanks Xylon for making this thread.

Nice. I will check that out.


RTK its not necessary to get screenshots from another provider. Post what you have. I'm sure some members will match what you post.

[Xylon]

Originally Posted by A_Dude

Can we please lose the "(sic)" and "HD-lite" bull* ?

All MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 Digital Video Are Lossey. The technique used is to remove data based on algorithms that remove data considered to be unnecessary for the illusion that you are watching the particular scene.

To conclude that particular numbers are necessary for a convincing illusion, is contrary to the lossey methods used in digital video.

Another persistent urban myth is that still frames can be used to compare lossey video. Again, this is contrary to the method used in lossey video. (A rough analogy is someone choosing one particular baseball game in a 162 game season as demonstrating that a particular team is incompetent - every championship team has more than game each season when they played poorly.)

As I type this, I am watching Equator Voom HD channel on Dish Network. A program about the Canadian Rockies was airing. Many scenes were visually indistinguishable from a pane of glass placed in the same location. (Shot by Raven HD Productions Ltd, by the way.) Generally, the picture quality is better than my 6 foot glass window to my left.

I hate to deflate obsessive-compulsive hobbies like measuring HD instead of watching it... er, actually no I don't.

I hope you are not insinuating that we are just imagining the artifacts, blocking and image breakups we are seeing.

Using digital screen grabs may not be a overall representation of the picture but when everything else equal and compared against each other its a great tool to have. I see blocking while the picture is in motion. I see blocking when its on pause. I see blocking when I capture digital frames directly from the broadcast stream. When its bit starved and HD-Lite the bad PQ doesnt go away.

[dr1394]

I just like this sequence on MHD.







Ron

[vurbano]

Originally Posted by NetworkTV

You are so on the wrong forum...

you got that right.

[Xylon]

Gladiator BEV

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 19.42 GB, Play Time: 02h:28m:25s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (23.99 fps Telecine), 45.00 Mbps (17.87 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 90.93 KB/Frame, 0.36 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
1 of 213628 video frames found with errors.
0 of 278285 audio frames found with errors.
181 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.008900 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

E* TNTHD 12-?-06

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 14.28 GB, Play Time: 02h:19m:56s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 18.00 Mbps (13.75 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 55.99 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 448 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
3 of 251644 video frames found with errors.
1 of 262388 audio frames found with errors.
2719 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

[keenan]

Originally Posted by A_Dude

As I type this, I am watching Equator Voom HD channel on Dish Network. A program about the Canadian Rockies was airing. Many scenes were visually indistinguishable from a pane of glass placed in the same location. (Shot by Raven HD Productions Ltd, by the way.) Generally, the picture quality is better than my 6 foot glass window to my left.

I don't even understand this statement, are you saying the image on your display looks better than real life? How can that be? Is your window dirty?

[Jeremy W]

Originally Posted by Xylon

D* even after moving their HD channels to h.264 (some are still in Mpeg-2) is still HD-Lite bit starved PQ.

I haven't seen you back that up with a single shred of evidence. My eyes tell me that they are giving the channels enough bits, and most DirecTV customers agree. So you better provide some damn good evidence before you throw around stupid claims like that.

[eric.exe]

Star Wars Episode 3

Premiere HD (Germany):

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 17.62 GB, Play Time: 02h:14m:19s
24.99 FPS (Average), 17.27 Mbps (Average).
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -27.0 dB, Center Mix Level: -3.0 dB, Surround Mix Level: -3.0 dB
0 of 251864 audio frames found with errors.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

HBO HD:

[NetworkTV]

Originally Posted by keenan

I don't even understand this statement, are you saying the image on your display looks better than real life? How can that be? Is your window dirty?

Or maybe his glasses are...

...heck, one time, I thought I was developing cataracts. It turns out I was just overdue replacing my contacts...

[keenan]

Originally Posted by NetworkTV

Or maybe his glasses are...

...heck, one time, I thought I was developing cataracts. It turns out I was just overdue replacing my contacts...

Ah, but that would mean that he would see the same degree of image degradation on his display as well.

The obvious point being, there is no image display technology, other than maybe that super hirez stuff the Japanese have demonstrated, that can even come close to the images we see with our own eyes in real life. Way too much processing power required. Maybe we could clone some human brains to be used as display processors.

[Xylon]

Originally Posted by Jeremy W

I haven't seen you back that up with a single shred of evidence. My eyes tell me that they are giving the channels enough bits, and most DirecTV customers agree. So you better provide some damn good evidence before you throw around stupid claims like that.

Ahh memories

Years ago people have the same reaction to us when we start to notice degradation in PQ from D* (even after going HD-Lite) Gary Murrel, HDTVFANATIC & et al were very vocal with D* going HD-Lite. To quote you "My eyes tell me that they are giving the channels enough bits, and most DirecTV customers agree." has been asserted many, many times. I don't really blame you since if it looks good to you why complain?

Eve after making a D*HD-Lite vs E* HD screenshot thread where we see an improvement of E* PQ over D* PQ (before E* went HD-Lite too) some still is not convinced.

You have to understand that some AVS members have seen HD during its infancy. D* has that looping program about Argentina and the outdoors, PBS has HD demo programs like that overhead helicopter shots of Italian countryside, a flower garden, a football game (snippets) and that short film starring Ashley Judd, Rudy Maxa travel shows. They were gorgeous. And then HD-Lite came and they noticed, no screenshots, no logs. The PQ just went down. This is what they saw and they were proven right.

I know a lot of you has D* HD PVR and most of you are recording HD channels from D* like BSG, Discovery nature shows, FOODHD or even the networks. Look at the shows again and evaluate it like an AVS member should Macroblocking, artifacts when the image is in motion. When this happens the sharpness also goes down (Do I really need to explain all this?) When you have the right equipment and know what to look for, the evidenece is right there in front of you. You don't need me to show it to you.

[Xylon]

Originally Posted by eric.exe

Star Wars Episode 3

Premiere HD (Germany):

HBO HD:

Word on the street is Premiere HD is reducing bitrates nowadays

[Jeremy W]

Originally Posted by Xylon

Eve after making a D*HD-Lite vs E* HD screenshot thread where we see an improvement of E* PQ over D* PQ (before E* went HD-Lite too) some still is not convinced.

Are you honestly trying to back yourself up with a thread that is almost two years old? Do you realize that on September 26, 2007 DirecTV changed things drastically? Any comparisons made before that, or even comparisons made today using MPEG2 channels, are worthless. WORTHLESS. Show me some data from DirecTV's MPEG4 national channels, and then we can talk.

[eric.exe]

DirecTV must have a ton of deblocking and sharpening filters running on their boxes or something, because people are convinced the mpeg4 channels are amazing.

Some european mpeg4 services at 10-15 Mbps don't look that great... so I don't see how Directv mpeg4 at 6-8mpbs can look like anything special...

[Jeremy W]

Originally Posted by eric.exe

I don't see how Directv mpeg4 at 6-8mpbs can look like anything special...

It's more like 8-10mbps, but if you haven't seen it, I can't expect you to understand.

[intn1]

December 22, 2007

The term "HD Lite" is a phrase DirecTV would probably prefer its customers never learn, or at least common sense would seem to dictate so. What is HD Lite, you ask? It is certainly not terminology included in any formally recognized HDTV specification as far as I know, but DirecTV and a few other television service providers currently rely upon the technique to deliver high-definition content within the limits of their available bandwidth. The underlying technical aspects aside, a HD Lite service provider can take content originally being broadcast in the popular 1920x1080i format, then downsample the content to 1440x1080i or even 1280x1080i for delivery to customers.
There is little debate on why DirecTV uses the HD Lite technique considering the high cost of deploying additional satellite bandwidth. However, getting back to common sense, DirecTV's decision to sue Comcast over HD video quality claims has likely done little to help the satellite provider's market position among retail consumers. Awhile back Comcast commissioned a survey to compare the video quality of its cable-based HD service against satellite-based HD Lite service, and naturally Comcast dominated the survey with a two-thirds majority.

Armed with its survey results, Comcast proceeded to roll out a marketing campaign declaring the surveyed customers' preference for Comcast HD service as compared to competing satellite services. DirecTV responded with a lawsuit, and in typical fashion for marketing disputes, the case was settled outside of the courtroom. Each side was supposedly "pleased" with the confidential settlement, but it shouldn't take a mystical psychic to determine DirecTV likely got the proverbial short end of the stick, as Comcast can still continue using the survey results in future advertisements. Ultimately it appears DirecTV did little more than perhaps running up yet another tab for legal fees and maybe further alienating a few consumers with its HD Lite approach to delivering high-definition television content.

[Jeremy W]

Originally Posted by intn1

December 22, 2007

Am I supposed to care because of this date?