BD-Live: Big Brother is watching! "AACS Online"

[Ruined]

Wow, check out this revelation from the DMP-BD50 Manual just up on the Panasonic site:

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...MPBD50-MUL.PDF

Originally Posted by Panasonic DMP-BD50 Manual - bottom of page 16

AACS Online
When discs supporting BD-Live are played back, the player or disc IDs may be sent
to the content provider via the Internet.

So basically by using BD-Live, you give permission for studios to track your specific playback history as well as see if your player is valid/not modded, etc - and of course it is tied to your IP address. I could see how nicely this could work together with BD+ for a DRM nightmare. So much for online content, it appears this is also about online DRM & monitoring.

All the more happy I'm getting the Pioneer BDP-51FD WITHOUT BD-Live!

Has anyone else actually heard of "AACS Online" prior to this?

[threefirstnames]

since i don't plan on doing anything illegal with my BD player and i'm not ashamed of any of the movies i watch, this is a non-issue for me. in fact, i'll be happy if they read the disc ID and use it for something useful, like automatically adding the title to an online catalog of my collection that i can view and edit online.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by threefirstnames

since i don't plan on doing anything illegal with my BD player and i'm not ashamed of any of the movies i watch, this is a non-issue for me. in fact, i'll be happy if they read the disc ID and use it for something useful, like automatically adding the title to an online catalog of my collection that i can view and edit online.

That would be a neat feature (which wouldn't require AACS Online), but I am looking more at it from the privacy/security aspect. Regardless of what you use your player for, should a studio really have the right to track all of this?

If the ultra-restrictive DRM wasn't in place I'd be less concerned, but the potential is there in a big way with Blu-ray since BD+ Advanced Countermeasure allows running of executables on the host process. Combine that with AACS Online and the DRM sky is the limit, I'd think.

[sperron]

Anyone with an online enabled video game console like the PS3, 360 or Wii already has this going on for whatever content is used on the system. Unlike video game system I don't see that Blu-Ray will have enough content only available online that it would be that compelling to even hook your player up to the net.

I can see where some people would have privacy concerns, but the system allows you to opt out. An online connection is not mandatory. So if you don't want your info revealed, just don't connect it to the net.

[Xylon]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Wow, check out this revelation from the DMP-BD50 Manual just up on the Panasonic site:

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...MPBD50-MUL.PDF


So basically by using BD-Live, you give permission for studios to track your specific playback history as well as see if your player is valid/not modded, etc - and of course it is tied to your IP address. I could see how nicely this could work together with BD+ for a DRM nightmare. So much for online content, it appears this is also about online DRM & monitoring.

All the more happy I'm getting the Pioneer BDP-51FD WITHOUT BD-Live!

Has anyone else actually heard of "AACS Online" prior to this?

Nice. I hope they dont disable your playback

[jksgvb]

Originally Posted by threefirstnames

since i don't plan on doing anything illegal with my BD player and i'm not ashamed of any of the movies i watch, this is a non-issue for me. in fact, i'll be happy if they read the disc ID and use it for something useful, like automatically adding the title to an online catalog of my collection that i can view and edit online.

...until something goes wrong like big brother's server going down or someone hacking in and "adjusting" their database. Then you won't be able to view the content you paid for. DRM almost always ends up screwing the honest customer. Dishonest folks find some way to get around it.

[Vader424242]

Gee, let's see...

Two major DIVX-supporting studios predominately supporting format (Disney and Fox)? Check.

Platform is Java (which will allow implementation of DIVX model)? Check.

Was opposition to DIVX removed by "persuading" key websites (that were notably central in DIVX's defeat) that a DIVX-type model was not the ultimate goal? Check.

Is the majority platform base apathetic towards internet monitoring (and by extension, will excuse a past attempt at covertly planting DRM on computers without question)? Check.

Will the majority platform base accept "I did not have sex with that woman" at face value? Check.

And people are acting surprised at this?

...until something goes wrong like big brother's server going down or someone hacking in and "adjusting" their database. Then you won't be able to view the content you paid for. DRM almost always ends up screwing the honest customer.

Bingo. I have a (former) friend who invested in over 4,000 DIVX discs, who would not listen to me. She now has 4,000 coasters, and doesn't talk to me any more...

[phansson]

Originally Posted by threefirstnames

since i don't plan on doing anything illegal with my BD player and i'm not ashamed of any of the movies i watch, this is a non-issue for me.

My point exactly. I am not ripping discs. I am not doing any thing illegal so I don't really care.

[LarryChanin]

Originally Posted by phansson

My point exactly. I am not ripping discs. I am not doing any thing illegal so I don't really care.

Hi,

I'm inclined to agree, but isn't there a better means to permit the studios to capture personal preference type information when the client so desires? For example, wouldn't a technical approach similar to Internet cookies be much more principled and head off this sort of underlying distrust?

I don't do anything illegal, but that doesn't mean I want my phones tapped.

Larry

[Vader424242]

If the ultra-restrictive DRM wasn't in place I'd be less concerned, but the potential is there in a big way with Blu-ray since BD+ Advanced Countermeasure allows running of executables on the host process. Combine that with AACS Online and the DRM sky is the limit, I'd think.

Quoted for emphasis. It's not about simply looking at the movies you watch (Blockbuster has done that since day 1). It's about the fact that Hollywood's dream is to maintain control over their movies, even after the sale, to the point of having the customer pay each and every time they watch a movie. I am not referring to ripping, either (I don't even have a DVD burner), but what if the PC-morons at Disney decide that certain scenes in their films are no longer "in touch with the times", and decide to excise them (which they have done on multiple occasions, like removing scenes where cartoon characters are smoking, or not releasing "Song of the South" at all because "it might offend some people"... whatever happened to "too bad... suck it up.... it's a piece of history). Now they have a means of shutting down playback of "non-authorized" copies (and I mean those legally purchased) because it might reflect badly on their PC agenda. And, like jksgvb said above, when the DIVX model is resurrected (those that think it won't be are burying their heads in the sand, or simply don't care), what if the central server goes down (or even out of business, as in the case of DIVX), and you are stuck holding the bag...?

[phansson]

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi,

I'm inclined to agree, but isn't there a better means to permit the studios to capture personal preference type information when the client so desires? For example, wouldn't a technical approach similar to Internet cookies be much more principled and head off this sort of underlying distrust?

I don't do anything illegal, but that doesn't mean I want my phones tapped.

Larry

Yes, but we don't even know what they are doing with the information? Maybe they use it to see if BD-Live is being used and worth the extra money on a disc?

Don't kid yourself, your phone is tapped right now if you say certain keywords.

[LarryChanin]

Originally Posted by phansson

Yes, but we don't even know what they are doing with the information? Maybe they use it to see if BD-Live is being used and worth the extra money on a disc?

Hi,

So if you agree, then why not respect their customer's privacy, while still permitting their customers to opt in or out without being forced to take the drastic action of disconnecting their Ethernet connection? Using the cookies analogy, can't I download content from a website without being forced to permit that website to collect personal preference information? What's the big deal with doing precisely the same thing with regard to BDLive?

Larry

[LarryChanin]

Originally Posted by benes

All of you chicken littles are forgetting the fact that internet connections are not mandatory for blu-ray. In fact BD-Live itself is not mandatory for any player to have in the first place. I swear this forum has some of the wackiest conspiracy theories on the net. And thats saying a lot.

Hi,

Do you happen to have spyware protection on your computer? When you turn it on and delete a tracking cookie does that make you a wacky paranoid conspiracy theorist?

Larry

[LarryChanin]

Originally Posted by benes

Hi,

Do you happen to know that virtually no website on earth works properly without cookies?

benes

Hi Benes,

You are missing my point. If you reread my remarks you'll see that I'm advocating a voluntary cookie approach to BDLive.

However, a tracking cookie is the same as an unwanted virus and getting rid of it doesn't make anyone a Chicken Little.

This is just a simple matter of basic privacy, nothing more. Why belittle folks who value their privacy?

Larry

[Vader424242]

...this forum has some of the wackiest conspiracy theories on the net

Given the fact that Disney has absolutely no qualms about altering their films to remain PC, and the fact that Sony could not even spell ethics (much less practice it), and the fact that many directors regularly engage in "revisionist PC filmmaking" (i.e. Spielberg removing guns from E.T.; Lucas removing violence from Star Wars; etc), I don't think this concern is unrealistic at all...

[Vader424242]

I don't recall you or anyone else being so concerned with privacy when this news came out:
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/tags/...abled_Features

I never used the internet interactivity there either. My Onkyo 805 HD-DVD player will never be hooked up to the net (not that it matters anymore), and neither will my Pioneer 05 Elite BR player. I opted for a player "limited" to 1.1 for a reason. And given that the Java platform provides the capability for remote program execution (whereas HDi did not, I might add), I will only update the FW via physical disc, and then only after others have already done so and reported no such "tinkering" (like, say, installing a rootkit...)

[LarryChanin]

Originally Posted by benes

I don't recall you or anyone else being so concerned with privacy when this news came out:
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/tags/...abled_Features

How do you think they knew they had 80,000 unique visitors if they weren't tracking everyone?

Was there an option to not give this info?

Hi Benes,

This is the last comment I'm going to contribute, you can have the last word if you wish.

Its about basic privacy. That means if you wish to have your personal information collected that fine, but if you don't want someone to collect it then that's a violation of your basic privacy.

This is NOT an other format war issue as you insinuate. I am a big supporter of web enabled content, and I probably would permit the studios to harvest my personal preference information if it enhanced my entertainment experience. However, I do not condemn others who wish to enjoy web enabled content without feeling forced to allow a corporation to accumulate their personal preference information. That's their right to privacy and using the web enable feature doesn't revoke that right.

Larry

[PikachuManZzZ]

Since when did "the player or disc IDs" become personal information?

There may be some legitimate concerns over movies going online, but I'll pick my battles. The "privacy" concern here seems more like over-intellectualized fantasies, rather than anything based in reality.

[LarryChanin]

Originally Posted by benes

These two statement don't jibe with each other. Once again if you were such a big supporter of web content and if you were so concerned with privacy then you should have been complaining about this issue long ago. I haven't gone thru your post history and don't plan to but I'll be willing to bet you never did. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Hi Benes,

I lied...

I'll offer one more response in an effort to convey my point.

You seem to erroneously equate using web enable features with violating one's privacy. Surely you don't really believe that any more than downloading web content is a violation of privacy?

Hey,.. please go ahead and review my posting history. I will in no way consider it a violation of my privacy. Besides, in case you haven't noticed this issue isn't about me, and my support of web enable content. Its simply about people having the right to use web enabled content while exercising their right to privacy, if they so wish.

Have a good evening.

Larry

[sperron]

Web enabled BDs most likely automatically "phone home" when you put the disc in (similarly online enabled HD DVDs used to download cookies automatically). Unless your name is in the player somehow, or you enter your info at the studios website, all they will know is that IP address X was playing such and such a movie. The player could possibly tell the server what resolution you are outputting at and other technical details about your player setup. I don't see how this is any different then surfing on your PC. Even if you delete your cookies regularly, servers still know your IP address, what operating system and browser you are using among other things. Unless you somehow provide personal information, you are just a anonymous IP address as you already are with your PC.

Even if you had privacy concerns, how do you access the web enabled content without the studios server knowing your IP address and what movie you are using?

[30XS955 User]

So you activate the web enabled content, and the player sends a message to the studio's servers that you're playing a certain movie and are trying to use the online features? What's the problem?

[Spektricide]

This is isn't bothersome at all as long as internet connections are not mandatory. I still have yet to enable web access to BD-Live titles from my PS3.

[Vader424242]

What's the problem?

It's none of their business.

Exactly. The only issue here is that the format war never ended for some people.

Exactly, Benes. Both formats have the same capability, so exactly where does the war come into this? You seem to be the only one trying to tie the two together... This is a question of the invasion of privacy, plain and simple. The issue is the exact same where the PS3, Wii, or whatever is concerned. Read it again: this issue is platform independent. The only difference might be the fact that the vast majority of the BR player base is a video game console, and gamers tend to be a bit more apathetic to online tracking, since it is unavoidable when gaming on someone else's server. Many of the "big deal" responses in this thread show that.

[Steve Burke]

Originally Posted by threefirstnames

since i don't plan on doing anything illegal with my BD player and i'm not ashamed of any of the movies i watch, this is a non-issue for me. in fact, i'll be happy if they read the disc ID and use it for something useful, like automatically adding the title to an online catalog of my collection that i can view and edit online.

I have no problems either with them tracking my viewing habits, as long as I am compensated for it. I am certainly not going to give that information away for free. It's what I tell the pollsters when they phone.

[tintin1001]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Wow, check out this revelation from the DMP-BD50 Manual just up on the Panasonic site:

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...MPBD50-MUL.PDF


So basically by using BD-Live, you give permission for studios to track your specific playback history as well as see if your player is valid/not modded, etc - and of course it is tied to your IP address. I could see how nicely this could work together with BD+ for a DRM nightmare. So much for online content, it appears this is also about online DRM & monitoring.

All the more happy I'm getting the Pioneer BDP-51FD WITHOUT BD-Live!

Has anyone else actually heard of "AACS Online" prior to this?

Disconnect the Player from the internet. Ohh and while you are at it, unplug your PC. Just by making that post here you have been tracked by every advertiser on this web site. Or you could get the PS3, you can disable Internet access on the Blu-Ray part so that it asks everytime you start a movie.

[PikachuManZzZ]

Originally Posted by Vader424242

It's none of their business.

Really? It's none of their business to know what sort of players/discs are connecting to their websites?

Dude, if you don't want to participate, then don't. The information being passed here (as described in the OP) is very much fair game for the type of service they are providing. Besides, none of it even nearly violates what any reasonable person considers to be privacy.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Ruined

So basically by using BD-Live, you give permission for studios to track your specific playback history as well as see if your player is valid/not modded, etc - and of course it is tied to your IP address.

I remember this being mentioned in a few HD DVD threads before and I don't see why you only attach this to BD-Live when this has been one of the "features" of AACS that was known since the interim AACS specs were released.

Originally Posted by Ruined

I could see how nicely this could work together with BD+ for a DRM nightmare.

Why bother bringing up BD+ except as a attempt to specifically go after Blu-ray? If you don't like this "feature" of AACS than you should complain about AACS.

Originally Posted by Ruined

All the more happy I'm getting the Pioneer BDP-51FD WITHOUT BD-Live!

Ruined, if you are this worried about simply having an internet connection on a Blu-ray player you really shouldn't have bought into HD DVD .

Originally Posted by Ruined

Has anyone else actually heard of "AACS Online" prior to this?

Yes, there have been a few threads that mentioned this when the interim AACS specs came out and when the first HD DVD discs with internet features started being released.

Originally Posted by Ruined

Regardless of what you use your player for, should a studio really have the right to track all of this?

Did you never wonder why certain studios cared so greatly about internet extras? Internet extras allow them to cut discs costs by putting extras on web servers that may or may not be here 5 years from now, know which extras you watch, and let them check on your player. Also Ruined your concern about this would have seemed less opportunistic if you had made a thread about this last summer when the first HD DVD discs with internet extras started being released.

[amirm]

Originally Posted by sperron

Web enabled BDs most likely automatically "phone home" when you put the disc in (similarly online enabled HD DVDs used to download cookies automatically). Unless your name is in the player somehow, or you enter your info at the studios website, all they will know is that IP address X was playing such and such a movie. The player could possibly tell the server what resolution you are outputting at and other technical details about your player setup. I don't see how this is any different then surfing on your PC. Even if you delete your cookies regularly, servers still know your IP address, what operating system and browser you are using among other things. Unless you somehow provide personal information, you are just a anonymous IP address as you already are with your PC.

Well, not quite . The PC has no real identity. Intel attempted to put a serial number in the processor but they were chased out of town. As a result, every PC is the same as the other. What is stated here is that the unique ID of the player is transmitted to the server. Since this ID is indeed unique, it does make it different than the PC.

Second, every major media player that I know is very specific in asking permission from the user before sending any information back to the server. You can choose to be connected and still not have this information sent back to the server.

Even if you had privacy concerns, how do you access the web enabled content without the studios server knowing your IP address and what movie you are using?

Again, it is not an issue of IP address, but the true ID of the player.

In general, my experience is that the CE industry is way behind the computer/software industry in following proper rules with respect to PII (personally identifiable information). For example, when record labels attempted to put software on their CDs to install software on the PC, we were shocked that they were going to do this without any notification. In sharp contrast, I am sure you have seen even freeware stuff come with notices about what you are installing on your computer.

Proper solution is to put the user on notice and give the option to turn off this aspect of the system. Seems like the notice is there, but perhaps no way of still experiencing web content without the worry of such information getting out.

In my opinion, it is not acceptable to tell people to not connect their players to the Internet. That would shut off content which does not collect such information.

Net, net, I think sending player ID to the web is unnecessary. IP address should suffice along with notification and ability to block such things.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Vader424242

Two major DIVX-supporting studios predominately supporting format (Disney and Fox)? Check.

Last I checked all six major studios support Blu-ray and HD DVD is dead.

Originally Posted by Vader424242

Platform is Java (which will allow implementation of DIVX model)? Check.

AACS allows disc content to be unlocked online which means that it can be done on either HD format. As such even back in the days of the format war it never made sense to compare Blu-ray to DIVX since both HD formats were technically capable of it.

Originally Posted by Vader424242

Was opposition to DIVX removed by "persuading" key websites (that were notably central in DIVX's defeat) that a DIVX-type model was not the ultimate goal? Check.

I am pretty sure that DIVX was a DIVX-type model.

Originally Posted by Vader424242

Is the majority platform base apathetic towards internet monitoring (and by extension, will excuse a past attempt at covertly planting DRM on computers without question)? Check.

Well going by your logic didn't HD DVD supporters excuse Toshiba for selling military technology to the Soviets?

Originally Posted by Vader424242

Will the majority platform base accept "I did not have sex with that woman" at face value? Check.

Which is a funny thing to say since out of all the Blu-ray and HD DVD discs released how many of them require an internet connection to watch? Though it is something that can be done with AACS it seems that the Blu-ray/HD DVD insiders who said that the studios would not be trying a DIVX type model were correct.

[Pecker]

I live in the UK. Due to Regional Coding I was thinking of buying a second, US/Region A BD player to supplement my UK PS3.

Might this restriction effectively 'junk' my player? If I plug in my player to the internet in the UK might the player be told not to work until it's plugged in again in the US?

Steve W