Blu-ray Durability on Netflix vs HD-DVD

[srw1000]

The latest cracked disc problem I've had from Blockbuster Online is The Mummy 3. Just like the others, it's cracked along the outside edge of the disc. As a result, about 2-3 minutes of the movie wouldn't play. Oddly enough, this wasn't at the beginning or the end of the movie, but about 30 minutes into it. I didn't check to see if it affected any of the bonus features.

The crack measures around 4 mm, and I took a couple of pictures. It's hard to see on the picture-side of the disc, but pretty obvious on the data side.





That makes four cracked discs which have resulted in playback problems, which adds up to almost 9% of my rentals. That's not a good track record, but better than some of the others that have posted here.

The question remains as to how much of this is a format problem versus a handling problem.

Scott

[srw1000]

As a follow up to the above post, I just reported this disc as cracked via the Blockbuster website, and got the following message:

Due to the unusual number of DVD problems reported on your account, we are unable to send you a replacement disc right away.

Please remember to return the DVD to us, even though it is damaged, so we may properly document it on your account and send the next movie in your Queue.

Unfortunately, the cracking problem is starting to affect the service they're providing me. In the past, they always sent out a replacement immediately, but now I've got to wait for them to get the return.

Scott

[PSound]

Originally Posted by srw1000

As a follow up to the above post, I just reported this disc as cracked via the Blockbuster website, and got the following message:Unfortunately, the cracking problem is starting to affect the service they're providing me. In the past, they always sent out a replacement immediately, but now I've got to wait for them to get the return.

Scott

That sucks and is bordering on Total BS!!

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by PSound

That sucks and is bordering on Total BS!!

I'm not super-upset about it. Their policy is actually quite generous, normally - sending out a replacement as soon as you report a damaged or missing disc is a nice benefit, but it could also be easily abused. I could imagine people trying to scam them into sending out movies faster by reporting titles missing or broken.

It would be nice if they could verify that discs reported as cracked or broken when they're returned, and then reset the counter on those accounts. I guess that still wouldn't keep people from abusing that feature, though. It seems like the people who play by the rules always get penalized because of those who choose to break them.

Anyway, I sent them a message about the high damage-rate of Blu-rays, and asked if it's representative of other peoples problems, and if there's anything they're doing to try and solve the problem.

I wonder if I'll get an actual answer, or some generic response? If there's anything worth mentioning, I'll post it here.

Scott

[PSound]

I am glad you are cool about it.

I certainly hope they are checking the discs that are reported damaged!

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by srw1000

Just like the others, it's cracked along the outside edge of the disc. As a result, about 2-3 minutes of the movie wouldn't play. Oddly enough, this wasn't at the beginning or the end of the movie, but about 30 minutes into it.

The “crack” that you show would not have caused this problem.

The question remains as to how much of this is a format problem versus a handling problem.

By format it is assumed you mean Blu-ray disc. Why do you think BD has any more problems than DVD’s or CD’s sent via mail?

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

The “crack” that you show would not have caused this problem.

Well, I've had exactly four playback problems with Blu-ray rental discs. All four of those had similar cracks on the outside of the disc. If they weren't causing the problem, I'm not sure what would be.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

By format it is assumed you mean Blu-ray disc. Why do you think BD has any more problems than DVD’s or CD’s sent via mail?

The quotes from Netflix representatives that I posted earlier in this thread certainly seem to indicate it. I don't know of any company that offers CD rentals by mail, so I wouldn't include a comparison with that format.

Scott

[srw1000]

I got a reply from Blockbuster on my cracked BD report. There wasn't any specific information about breakage, but they did ask that I black-out the bar code on the sleeve and attach a note about it being cracked. When the discs are flagged like this, they get examined and sometimes that information is then shared with the manufacturers.

Hopefully they can find a way to correct the problem as they gather more data.

They also sent a coupon for the inconvenience. It was supposed to be for a free in-store rental, but ended up as a $1.99 in-store rental. Not that it matters - I have no desire to rent discs from a store.

I did ask for more information in a follow-up email, but I'm not hopeful that they'll provide it.

Scott

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by srw1000

Well, I've had exactly four playback problems with Blu-ray rental discs. All four of those had similar cracks on the outside of the disc.

What happened when you tried to play the disc?

The quotes from Netflix representatives that I posted earlier in this thread certainly seem to indicate it. I don't know of any company that offers CD rentals by mail, so I wouldn't include a comparison with that format.

You do know there was a format war? How do you know that the Blu-ray disc were not deliberately damaged by certain Netflix customers?

I will give you something to think on, for the subject of material and mechanical construction a Blu-ray disc is almost the same as a DVD or CD.

I have been a Netflix customer for about 27 months and have received 220 Blu-ray disc via USPS mail and there has not been a single problem with the disc. So, how do you account for this big disparity? If need be, I can post my rental history.

[Eternal_Sunshine]

I also rented way over 100 Blu-rays via postal services and never had a single problem.

[mproper]

Originally Posted by srw1000

Well, I've had exactly four playback problems with Blu-ray rental discs. All four of those had similar cracks on the outside of the disc. If they weren't causing the problem, I'm not sure what would be.

I'll just point out I've had 2 discs with similar cracks on the inside edge just like that (Journey to the Center of the Earth and Gone Baby Gone) and they both exhibited the same odd behavior....multiple 3-4 minute skips on JTTCOTE and an 8+ minute skip on GBG....all during the movie.

I thought it was odd at the time since I didn't really see any other issues on the surface of the disc, but now that I see your post, maybe it's not so strange. Still doesn't make sense to me though since that edge shouldn't have anything to do with the movie.

I've had a few other discs (all from NF) with cracks along the outside edge that also affected playback, but that makes more sense to me.

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

What happened when you tried to play the disc?

Pretty much the same thing that happens every time I play a BD - disc goes in the PS3, wait for the disc to load, wait for BD-J to load (when used), skip through 5-10 previews, finally get to the menu, start the movie, and then watch. Right up until the point when the movie skips.

Then it's a frustrating process of trying to find a combination of fast forward, reverse, and chapter skip commands that might get back part of the missing movie. After a couple of minutes of that, I'll pop out the disc and look for defects, and wipe the disc if it looks like it needs it (that has never solved the problem with BDs).

Sometimes I manage to squeeze out a few seconds or minutes of content, but most of it is inaccessible, so I give up and try and piece together what I might have missed from the plot.

Scott

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I will give you something to think on, for the subject of material and mechanical construction a Blu-ray disc is almost the same as a DVD or CD.

I have been a Netflix customer for about 27 months and have received 220 Blu-ray disc via USPS mail and there has not been a single problem with the disc. So, how do you account for this big disparity? If need be, I can post my rental history.

Either you have been lucky, or I have been unlucky.

Have most of your rentals been new releases, older titles, or a mixture? I would imagine that the problems increase as the discs age. If you somehow manage to get the majority of your titles during the first few weeks of release, the odds of getting a bad disc are probably lower than they would be for movies that have been out for several months.

The other factor might be the rental rate of BDs from the distribution center your movies come from. I don't know of any way for a consumer to tell just how many times any specific disc has been rented by the time you receive it, but maybe the titles your getting just haven't been rented out as frequently as the titles for other centers.

Another factor could be the climate. The colder weather here might make the BD discs more fragile as they make their way through the mail system. Differences in the actual physical mail system could also cause various problems.

There are probably a bunch of other factors that could contribute to our different experiences.

I'm sure that both Netflix and Blockbuster would have much more detailed studies of what might be causing the difference, but it doesn't seem like they're willing to release it to the public. As a shareholder of Netflix, maybe you could ask them for a report or for information.

Scott

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

You do know there was a format war? How do you know that the Blu-ray disc were not deliberately damaged by certain Netflix customers?

I'm not sure if this was actually meant to be a serious comment/question, or just a joke, but I'll treat it seriously.

There's no way of knowing. But, let's say that this was the result of a conspiracy of some mysterious cabal of Blu-ray haters, who planned the demise of their most-hated format:

• They would have to plan out their disc-damaging activities very carefully: To many damaged BDs, and it would call attention to their accounts. Too little, and the effort wouldn't be effective
• They had to be pretty devoted, since not only would they have to pay a monthly fee to carry out the plan, but they would also have to use some of those rentals for movies they didn't intend to watch, only to damage and return. . .
• Unless they watched the BD first, then cracked them. But that doesn't really sound much like devoted BD-haters, since they would have to welcome the enemy machines into their very own home. Egads!
• Looking at the actual cracks, it doesn't seem like the kind of damage that would be easily to inflict. The cracks are small and only at one point along the outside edge. Again, the devious little cabal could have come up with a very consistent method of cracking the discs, carefully practicing each month under the shimmering moonlight of their monthly midnight meetings, but that sounds a bit far-fetched

In short, the consistency of the cracks, the fact that some of these movies weren't released until after the end of the format war, and the prevalence of the problem seem to indicate that there is more going on here than just a wacky group of nuts trying to artificially manufacture a problem.

Again, I would have to point back to what the Netflix people have said. If this were the result of a number of people intentionally causing problems, it would be very simple to track them down, and eliminate those data points from their studies. I haven't seen them say anything to suggest that, though.

Scott

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by mproper

I'll just point out I've had 2 discs with similar cracks on the inside edge just like that (Journey to the Center of the Earth and Gone Baby Gone) and they both exhibited the same odd behavior....multiple 3-4 minute skips on JTTCOTE and an 8+ minute skip on GBG....all during the movie.

I thought it was odd at the time since I didn't really see any other issues on the surface of the disc, but now that I see your post, maybe it's not so strange. Still doesn't make sense to me though since that edge shouldn't have anything to do with the movie.

I've had a few other discs (all from NF) with cracks along the outside edge that also affected playback, but that makes more sense to me.

Inside edge, huh? That sounds really odd. I haven't seen any like that.

Looking at BDs vs. DVDs, does it seem like they are more fragile? I've taken DVDs before and tried to crack them in half. It's really hard. They'll usually bend for a long time before starting to crack. I haven't tried it with a BD, but they seem like they might be a little more brittle.

Scott

[PSound]

It might also be related to which postal facilities it runs through. I read the theory that the flexing caused by the automated sorting systems can cause issues.

Perhaps some regions of the postal service are better at noting and hand sorting Netflix discs.

[EVizzle]

I too have rented close to a hundred BDs from Netflix and have yet to see a single one that had any playback issues. I have seen a handful of half cracked DVDs and a few with partial cracks. In my HD DVD renting days, I only had one disc that was too scratched and skipped a lot. The inconsistency between reports is what surprises me, some have had many issues and some have had none. Not calling anyone out, but it seems odd.

[Wendell R. Breland]

I have tried to recreate cracks in disc like the ones some people talk about on the internet. If the disc is bent to the point of cracking then it generally breaks into 2 or more pieces so that method can be ruled out. So the other possibilities that come to mind are cutting and shear actions. I can not think of any tensile actions that would apply. Here is the results of my experiments:

1. This cark was made by using a small metal brake to partially cut the disc.
2. This cark was made by using two metal jaws (side-by-side) clamped to the disc and then one jaw was rotated to produce a “Shearing” of the disc.
3. This cark was made by using a vise to clamp the disc. Then a 16oz. flat head hammer was used to tap the disc to break it. Several trials were made using this method and when enough force was used to crack the disc the end result was similar.
4. This is a mystery crack. It produced a very similar result to the one that srw1000 posted. Anyone want to guess how it was made?

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

• This is a mystery crack. It produced a very similar result to the one that srw1000 posted. Anyone want to guess how it was made?

I don't know how you created it, but judging from the picture, it doesn't look all that similar to the ones I've seen:

• The crack is perfectly straight. The fault may be with the picture I posted, but the ones I've observed have a slight curve to them, almost like the trailing edge of your third picture. Yours seems to be straight.
• There seems to be a slight gap on each side. Again, without actually seeing the physical disc, it's hard to tell from a picture, but it looks like there is material missing from the cracked area. I shot my pictures to try and emphasize the crack, but when actually looking at it, it was somewhat hard to spot. The light had to catch it just right, or you might not even see it. The two halves of the crack still fit together, where your picture seems to indicate at least a small gap. Almost as though it were cut with a very sharp blade.
• It appears to be much bigger. The cracks I've found were only a few millimeters long, Yours seems to be about 2-3 times that length. You may have exaggerated the crack for effect, but it's hard to tell.

Out of curiosity, were the discs you tried cracking/splitting DVDs, CDs, or BDs?

If I had to guess how you created the fourth crack, I would say a very sharp knife or blade.

If I had to guess what was causing the cracks on the BDs I've received, I would guess some kind of stress fracture. Maybe caused by dropping on edge, maybe from going through some kind of sorting equipment, maybe the weight of other mail.

Scott

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by srw1000

I don't know how you created it, but judging from the picture, it doesn't look all that similar to the ones I've seen:

Sure it does, if you rotated to the same angle as your picture then the crack would be barely visible.

Out of curiosity, were the discs you tried cracking/splitting DVDs, CDs, or BDs?

For the purpose of cracks, do you believe there is a difference between DVDs, CDs, or BDs? If so, why?

If I had to guess what was causing the cracks on the BDs I've received, I would guess some kind of stress fracture. Maybe caused by dropping on edge, maybe from going through some kind of sorting equipment, maybe the weight of other mail.

Was my test methods not clear somehow? I have bent, cut, sheared and struck the disc and you can see the results.

[PSound]

Crack #4 looks like it was done in MS Paint.

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Sure it does, if you rotated to the same angle as your picture then the crack would be barely visible.

I disagree. The cracks are not that similar. I took the fourth picture you posted and superimposed a picture of one of my discs next to it:



The differences:

• As stated earlier, your crack is much bigger
• The arrow points to what seems to be some material sticking out from your crack. Perhaps some kind of burr from cutting?
• The crack on your disc is straight, while the crack I posted has a curve to it

Based on these points, I don't think whatever you did to the disc in question replicates the problems that I've found.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For the purpose of cracks, do you believe there is a difference between DVDs, CDs, or BDs? If so, why?

From what I recall, there are physical differences between the different discs, and they actually feel different when handled.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Was my test methods not clear somehow? I have bent, cut, sheared and struck the disc and you can see the results.

You referred to the fourth picture as a mystery and asked people how it might have been produced. I gave it my best shot. My wife thinks you used a jeweler's saw.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove with this exercise. If you honestly think that the cracked discs I've found are a result of someone intentionally creating them, I strongly disagree, and frankly, the idea seems a little cracked. I'm more interested to find out what the real reason is for them, and how they might be prevented in the future. It sucks to miss sections of a movie.

Scott

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by srw1000

From what I recall, there are physical differences between the different discs, and they actually feel different when handled.

Here is the problem, look at the number of post where people claim to have received BD with small cracks on the outside rim and also claimed they never received DVD with cracks. Many apparently believe the internet drivel that BD are more fragile than DVDs or CDs. Here is the story, there is little physical difference between DVDs, BDs or CDs. They are the same size, thickness and made with a polycarbonate resin. The differences between them are the depth of the data layer(s) and track pitch.

For a Blu-ray disc there is a 1100μm thick substrate with a 100μm thick cover to the substrate (1200μm total thickness for the disc). There is a hard coat ≈ .2 to 5 μm that is a spin coat or a film that is applied to the substrate. This spin coat or film is what makes the disc scratch resistant.

The Blu-ray disc has a total of 1200μm thickness with a hard coat ≈ .2 to 5 μm (.42%), therefore its tensile and shear properties should be very similar to that of a CD or DVD

The reason for the hard coat is because of the focal plane. The data layer is only 100μm from the surface (for SLD) therefore the surface of the disc is close to the focus point of the read (or write) laser beam. One of the major benefits of having the data this close to the surface is the ease of recording, as in BD-R and BD-RE. Remember, Blu-ray was designed as a recording medium from the very start. Commercially available movies are BD-ROM’s, which is a stamped process.

The original Blu-ray disc (released in Japan) did not have a hard coat and used a disc caddy.

Picture #4, the crack is a fake. As to your disc I can think of several tools to create such a nice clean lined crack, readily available at any Wal*Mart, Sears, etc. So take a blank DVD (cheap) [or BD] and see if you can create a crack, like the one in your picture, by physical abuse. When time is available I will do some more test myself.

I do not mean to imply that no optical disc are damaged in transit, they are thin plastic disc and some will most likely be abused somewhere in transit.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by srw1000

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove with this exercise.

This is an example from this page of this thread:

I'll just point out I've had 2 discs with similar cracks on the inside edge just like that (Journey to the Center of the Earth and Gone Baby Gone) and they both exhibited the same odd behavior....multiple 3-4 minute skips on JTTCOTE and an 8+ minute skip on GBG....all during the movie.

If they were cracks here then the disc would not have played. The player has to read the Table of Contents in order to know what disc is (BD, CD, DVD, etc.)

[PSound]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Picture #4, the crack is a fake.

I called it!

[mproper]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

If they were cracks here then the disc would not have played. The player has to read the Table of Contents in order to know what disc is (BD, CD, DVD, etc.)

No, it didn't look like the crack was into the "data" section of the disc, but the clear plastic around the small (inside) hole.

I guess I should've taken pictures before sending them back to NF, but really didn't think much of it at the time.

[ResIpsa]

My personal opinion and experience is that the damaged discs I've received were most likely damaged because of the disrespectful attitude SOME customers show towards things that don't belong to them, and the corresponding mistreatment that goes along with that.

[johnu]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I have been a Netflix customer for about 27 months and have received 220 Blu-ray disc via USPS mail and there has not been a single problem with the disc. So, how do you account for this big disparity? If need be, I can post my rental history.

Tha't good enough for me. FWIW, I have never been hit by lightning. If need be, I can post my medical history.

[srw1000]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Here is the problem, look at the number of post where people claim to have received BD with small cracks on the outside rim and also claimed they never received DVD with cracks. Many apparently believe the internet drivel that BD are more fragile than DVDs or CDs.

This is not "internet drivel." It was stated by Netflix. I can't imagine them making such a statement without having the data to back it up. The small number of people posting on this forum are not necessarily representative of their customers or their experiences.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Here is the story, there is little physical difference between DVDs, BDs or CDs. They are the same size, thickness and made with a polycarbonate resin. The differences between them are the depth of the data layer(s) and track pitch.

For a Blu-ray disc there is a 1100μm thick substrate with a 100μm thick cover to the substrate (1200μm total thickness for the disc). There is a hard coat ≈ .2 to 5 μm that is a spin coat or a film that is applied to the substrate. This spin coat or film is what makes the disc scratch resistant.

The Blu-ray disc has a total of 1200μm thickness with a hard coat ≈ .2 to 5 μm (.42%), therefore its tensile and shear properties should be very similar to that of a CD or DVD

You've done a good job detailing the specs of BD. How about posting the comparable specs for DVD?

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Picture #4, the crack is a fake. As to your disc I can think of several tools to create such a nice clean lined crack, readily available at any Wal*Mart, Sears, etc. So take a blank DVD (cheap) [or BD] and see if you can create a crack, like the one in your picture, by physical abuse. When time is available I will do some more test myself.

I have no interest in trying to recreate a damaged BD, nor do I understand why anyone else would want to create fake examples. I'd rather spend that time actually watching BDs, rather than destroying them.

I do find it more than a bit absurd to suggest that a group of people are, for some odd reason, intentionally damaging discs in such a consistent manner, over a continuous period, all without being caught.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I do not mean to imply that no optical disc are damaged in transit, they are thin plastic disc and some will most likely be abused somewhere in transit.

Yes, and Neflix claims that this damage rate is higher for BD than DVD, which is the whole point of this thread.

Given your rental history, either you have been incredibly lucky, or I have been incredibility unlucky. Or you are being intentionally dishonest, as you were with your "mystery crack" picture.

Again, if you'd like to contribute some interesting information, why don't you contact Netflix and ask them what the specific damage rates are between the formats. As a shareholder, you may actually get a response from them. Or you could correct their data for them and ask them to stop spreading their "drivel."

Scott

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by srw1000

You've done a good job detailing the specs of BD. How about posting the comparable specs for DVD?

Why, you have accused me of being dishonest.

Given your rental history, either you have been incredibly lucky, or I have been incredibility unlucky. Or you are being intentionally dishonest, as you were with your "mystery crack" picture.

I did number 4 picture just to show how easy it is to create false information, there was no other intent. I spent less than two minutes creating the false crack. If more time was used for blending and air brushing I feel certain I could have made it look very real. And as stated earlier, tools are readily available that could produce a physical smooth crack as you have shown. I could not come anywhere close to producing a crack like you have shown by using physical abuse.

Below is the first page of my Netflix rental history. It is my understanding that any disc problems will show up under the Details column. If need be, I will do my entire rental history but it will be done at my convenience.

And contacting Netflix, if you know how then let me know!!