The Terminator (1984) - 4 DVDs vs Blu-ray comparison PIX

msgohan · 09-13-09, 09:08 AM

An old release but it must be done.

The Image Entertainment DVD was released in 1997. Judging from artifacts on lettering and the fact that it opens with the Hemdale Home Video logo, I'm guessing it uses the laserdisc master. It's non-anamorphic so I cropped 60 pixels each from the top and bottom to make comparison easier.

MGM made a new film-to-video transfer for their 2001 Special Edition DVD. The European disc features some different color timings than the US disc, and the opening scenes are from a different transfer without the burnt-in texts. (They're player-generated in order to accommodate the different language options.)

Later, Europe got an "Ultimate Edition" DVD based on the same European SE master but with the burnt-in opening restored using the other transfer. Unfortunately this release also added automatic dirt/scratch removal, with associated artifacts throughout.

The Blu-ray uses the exact same master as the US Special Edition DVD released in 2001, just without the vertical stretch and SD downscale.

Now for my major complaint: every single one of these releases uses temporal DNR, in varying degrees. This is tough to demonstrate with screencaps but I did find one part of the movie that displays it in a way that's obvious with stills.

If you want your experience ruined as much as mine, see image set #3 below.

The "white" sky background seems to play hell with the filters used. Look at the power lines and lamp post. The downward camera movement coupled with the temporal filter causes duplication of these objects! If you watch those parts of the scene during playback you can actually see them accordion out and then slowly fade away...

The strength of the filter used on the EU discs is considerably lower than that used on MGM's US discs. The strongest DNR is actually on the Image DVD, but it doesn't have the duplication issue to the same degree.

Summary rant over.

..... Image DVD .......... vs MGM UE DVD (EU) vs MGM SE DVD (EU) vs MGM SE DVD (US) vs Blu-ray
#1:

#2:

#3:

#4:

#5:

#6:

#7:

#8:

#9:

msgohan · 09-13-09, 09:09 AM

Here's some comparisons of the effects of the DNR (and MPEG-2 compression) on the Blu-ray.

Since there's no DNR-free high definition version, I had to choose a DVD version to compare to. The strange compression of the European SE disc, with even I-frames containing smoothed-out blocks, rules that one out.

So I used I-frames from the European UE DVD, the one with scratch removal artifacts galore (try to ignore those). I cropped, scaled, and repositioned it to match the Blu-ray as best I could. Note that these are very much cherry-picked to show the best of the DVD and Blu-ray frames where detail loss is obvious.

DNR comparison mouseovers here
(same as the images below)

msgohan · 09-13-09, 09:10 AM

And here's a more esoteric comparison. Temporal bleeding at a scene change. It's basically imperceptible on the European DVDs. On the US discs you can see how the outlines of the pictures, bookshelf, and door bleed into neighboring frames then fade away.

MGM UE DVD (EU)

MGM SE DVD (EU)

MGM SE DVD (US)

Blu-ray

msgohan · 09-13-09, 09:11 AM

Bear with me if you think I've gone overboard on this one.

Opening these in Firefox 3.5 and using your mouse wheel to scroll through them works well.

Arnold's hair leaving duplicate trails behind...

Blu-ray

hlwl · 09-13-09, 11:32 AM

Not to mention the problem with the audio. The original mono sound mix is not included on the Blu-ray. Instead replaced with a gimmicky surround remix with completely different sound effects at parts.

lgans316 · 09-13-09, 12:42 PM

Really appreciate your enthusiasm msgohan. If the Studios take a dose of this enthusiasm I am sure we won't be ranting. Are we are asking too much out of these Studios ? I don't think so, at least, for deserving titles like Terminator.

eapleitez · 09-13-09, 05:57 PM

Makes me glad I haven't "upgraded" on this title yet. Hardly any benefit can be appreciated. This one needs a remaster.

DavidHir · 09-13-09, 06:09 PM

Van Ling mentioned a remaster is coming at some point.

Matt_Stevens · 09-13-09, 08:21 PM

That sound remix is ridiculous. The Blu-Ray not having it means I have not upgraded and will not upgrade until that problem is solved.

By the way, in looking at those screen caps this has to be a case of the BD showing so little improvement because of excessive DNR that it isn't worth upgrading. The DVD was really quite good for its time and still holds up today. They went all out to make sure the video was top notch.

mzupeman · 09-13-09, 08:41 PM

I've heard of this remaster as well, and although it's not quite anywhere near coming out anytime too soon, the difference between the DVD and Blu-ray really look to be negligible. I'll keep what I've got for now.

sharkcohen · 09-13-09, 09:21 PM

Does the 2001 US MGM SE DVD have the original mono track?

msgohan · 09-13-09, 09:58 PM

Both US DVDs feature the original mono, as a 192kbps DD2.0 track.

sharkcohen · 09-14-09, 12:24 AM

Nice. I think I'm going to pick up the DVD. LOL.

Kram Sacul · 09-14-09, 06:07 AM

So the BD looks like a HDNet broadcast.

Matt_Stevens · 09-14-09, 08:10 AM

The DVD's 192k bps track is shrill and empty, so even though it is there, it's a shell of what the PCM track on all the laserdiscs sounds like.

Basically, there has yet to be a release that satisfies me on DVD or Blu-Ray. Cameron needs to step in here and personally ensure this one gets a proper release.

dumbjaw · 09-14-09, 08:21 AM

Well, if I had to choose for the image only I'd still be buying the blu-ray. However slight the upgrade, with the screenshots full size I do like the BD best of all. In fact with the low pricing at the moment for the BD I might buy it as a temporary add-on to my US SE dvd (what a dreadful stretch by the way).

Vader424242 · 09-14-09, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens

I want to break the kneecaps of all involved with that ridiculous sound remix.

I have not heard the remix, but I am curious as to what the offensive parts are. I know that they replaced the sound made by the gun when the T-800 confronts the first Sarah, but what else is problematic?

Matt_Stevens · 09-14-09, 09:45 AM

Everything. The entire soundtrack has been redone, replaced, reworked. Nothing sounds the same. In addition, numerous music pieces are actually missing because the composer redid the entire score on modern equipment, but forgot to do some of the music.

It's a disaster. The worst remix ever done in Hollywood because it just throws out the original with no respect for it whatsoever.

sharkcohen · 09-14-09, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens

The DVD's 192k bps track is shrill and empty, so even though it is there, it's a shell of what the PCM track on all the laserdiscs sounds like.

Basically, there has yet to be a release that satisfies me on DVD or Blu-Ray. Cameron needs to step in here and personally ensure this one gets a proper release.

Hrmmm, think I'll try to find the laserdisc, too

Damnationdoormat · 09-14-09, 02:13 PM

I still have the Image DVD for the original non-split 1.0 track.

Morpheo · 09-14-09, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens

Everything. The entire soundtrack has been redone, replaced, reworked. Nothing sounds the same. In addition, numerous music pieces are actually missing because the composer redid the entire score on modern equipment, but forgot to do some of the music.

And who is that guy again?

Nice job Brad... This is beyond me, I mean the guy scores Terminator, makes a new version, and forgets to do some of it?!?!?! He could be forgiven if it was for, I don't know, some random porn sapphire series update (I'd be curious to check EE and DNR on that!

)! But... Terminator!!

hmmm...

grodd · 09-14-09, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens

The DVD's 192k bps track is shrill and empty, so even though it is there, it's a shell of what the PCM track on all the laserdiscs sounds like.

Basically, there has yet to be a release that satisfies me on DVD or Blu-Ray. Cameron needs to step in here and personally ensure this one gets a proper release.

PCM tracks from laserdiscs often sound better. I don't know why they don't use them more often on Blu-rays.

Stanton · 09-14-09, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkcohen

Hmmm, think I'll try to find the laserdisc, too

I ended up getting rid of the (2001) DVD and keeping the LD: at least I have the original mono soundtrack. The extras were nice (kept a copy of those), but this is one of those movies (like RoboCop) I still like to watch on LaserDisc.

PRO-630HD · 09-14-09, 03:51 PM

This was one of the first bluray titles I bought at the heavily bungled launch of the format. I had the 2001 special edition at the time and in comparing the 2 the difference was negligeble and this actually was one of the better looking blurays at launch.

Thunderbolt8 · 09-14-09, 04:35 PM

excellent job on all those comprehensively done comparisons of yours :P

sharkcohen · 09-14-09, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanton

I ended up getting rid of the (2001) DVD and keeping the LD: at least I have the original mono soundtrack. The extras were nice (kept a copy of those), but this is one of those movies (like RoboCop) I still like to watch on LaserDisc.

I have a laserdisc copy on the way now

CRT Dude · 09-15-09, 12:12 PM

Has anyone ripped the fabled PCM mono track?

Jacob305 · 09-15-09, 01:21 PM

dvd producer van ling is working on a new special edition bluray of terminator 1. it suppose to come out next year sometime. lowery is doing the remastering of the movie.. they have done other movies too. I have the bluray and I thought it was fine.

Jacob

MovieSwede · 09-15-09, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob305

dvd producer van ling is working on a new special edition bluray of terminator 1. it suppose to come out next year sometime. lowery is doing the remastering of the movie.. they have done other movies too. I have the bluray and I thought it was fine.

Jacob

Didnt they do T2 Skynet edition aswell?

mzupeman · 09-15-09, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MovieSwede

Didnt they do T2 Skynet edition aswell?

Even if they did, I'm sure T1 will still look a LOT better than the previous release.

09-13-09, 09:08 AM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
msgohan Screencap addict Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,363	The Terminator (1984) - 4 DVDs vs Blu-ray comparison PIX An old release but it must be done. The Image Entertainment DVD was released in 1997. Judging from artifacts on lettering and the fact that it opens with the Hemdale Home Video logo, I'm guessing it uses the laserdisc master. It's non-anamorphic so I cropped 60 pixels each from the top and bottom to make comparison easier. MGM made a new film-to-video transfer for their 2001 Special Edition DVD. The European disc features some different color timings than the US disc, and the opening scenes are from a different transfer without the burnt-in texts. (They're player-generated in order to accommodate the different language options.) Later, Europe got an "Ultimate Edition" DVD based on the same European SE master but with the burnt-in opening restored using the other transfer. Unfortunately this release also added automatic dirt/scratch removal, with associated artifacts throughout. The Blu-ray uses the exact same master as the US Special Edition DVD released in 2001, just without the vertical stretch and SD downscale. Now for my major complaint: every single one of these releases uses temporal DNR, in varying degrees. This is tough to demonstrate with screencaps but I did find one part of the movie that displays it in a way that's obvious with stills. If you want your experience ruined as much as mine, see image set #3 below. The "white" sky background seems to play hell with the filters used. Look at the power lines and lamp post. The downward camera movement coupled with the temporal filter causes duplication of these objects! If you watch those parts of the scene during playback you can actually see them accordion out and then slowly fade away... The strength of the filter used on the EU discs is considerably lower than that used on MGM's US discs. The strongest DNR is actually on the Image DVD, but it doesn't have the duplication issue to the same degree. Summary rant over. ..... Image DVD .......... vs MGM UE DVD (EU) vs MGM SE DVD (EU) vs MGM SE DVD (US) vs Blu-ray #1: #2: #3: #4: #5: #6: #7: #8: #9:

09-13-09, 09:09 AM	#2 \| Link
msgohan Screencap addict Thread Starter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,363	Temporal DNR for the time-travellers Here's some comparisons of the effects of the DNR (and MPEG-2 compression) on the Blu-ray. Since there's no DNR-free high definition version, I had to choose a DVD version to compare to. The strange compression of the European SE disc, with even I-frames containing smoothed-out blocks, rules that one out. So I used I-frames from the European UE DVD, the one with scratch removal artifacts galore (try to ignore those). I cropped, scaled, and repositioned it to match the Blu-ray as best I could. Note that these are very much cherry-picked to show the best of the DVD and Blu-ray frames where detail loss is obvious. DNR comparison mouseovers here (same as the images below)

09-13-09, 09:11 AM	#4 \| Link
msgohan Screencap addict Thread Starter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,363	...And I'm done Bear with me if you think I've gone overboard on this one. Opening these in Firefox 3.5 and using your mouse wheel to scroll through them works well. Arnold's hair leaving duplicate trails behind... Blu-ray

09-13-09, 12:42 PM	#6 \| Link
lgans316 Never Ever Warn-her Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Barking, Essex, London Posts: 6,466	Really appreciate your enthusiasm msgohan. If the Studios take a dose of this enthusiasm I am sure we won't be ranting. Are we are asking too much out of these Studios ? I don't think so, at least, for deserving titles like Terminator. __________________ Blu-ray : 340

09-13-09, 05:57 PM	#7 \| Link
eapleitez AVS Special Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2,418	Makes me glad I haven't "upgraded" on this title yet. Hardly any benefit can be appreciated. This one needs a remaster. __________________ _____________________________ HD DVD: 159 Blu ray: 59

09-13-09, 09:10 AM	#3 \| Link
msgohan Screencap addict Thread Starter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,363	And here's a more esoteric comparison. Temporal bleeding at a scene change. It's basically imperceptible on the European DVDs. On the US discs you can see how the outlines of the pictures, bookshelf, and door bleed into neighboring frames then fade away. MGM UE DVD (EU) MGM SE DVD (EU) MGM SE DVD (US) Blu-ray

09-13-09, 11:32 AM	#5 \| Link
hlwl Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 213	Not to mention the problem with the audio. The original mono sound mix is not included on the Blu-ray. Instead replaced with a gimmicky surround remix with completely different sound effects at parts.

09-13-09, 06:09 PM	#8 \| Link
DavidHir AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,616	Van Ling mentioned a remaster is coming at some point.

09-13-09, 08:21 PM	#9 \| Link
Matt_Stevens Vengeful Sourpuss Join Date: May 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 12,386	That sound remix is ridiculous. The Blu-Ray not having it means I have not upgraded and will not upgrade until that problem is solved. By the way, in looking at those screen caps this has to be a case of the BD showing so little improvement because of excessive DNR that it isn't worth upgrading. The DVD was really quite good for its time and still holds up today. They went all out to make sure the video was top notch. __________________ New official site for The Kung-Fu STAR, coming Summer, 2010. Last edited by Ken H; 09-14-09 at 10:05 AM..

09-13-09, 08:41 PM	#10 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
mzupeman Advanced Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 800	I've heard of this remaster as well, and although it's not quite anywhere near coming out anytime too soon, the difference between the DVD and Blu-ray really look to be negligible. I'll keep what I've got for now.

09-13-09, 09:21 PM	#11 \| Link
sharkcohen screenshot scientist Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 5,925	Does the 2001 US MGM SE DVD have the original mono track? __________________ Back off man, I'm a scientist.

09-13-09, 09:58 PM	#12 \| Link
msgohan Screencap addict Thread Starter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 1,363	Both US DVDs feature the original mono, as a 192kbps DD2.0 track.

09-14-09, 12:24 AM	#13 \| Link
sharkcohen screenshot scientist Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 5,925	Nice. I think I'm going to pick up the DVD. LOL. __________________ Back off man, I'm a scientist.

09-14-09, 06:07 AM	#14 \| Link
Kram Sacul Screenshot Scientist Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 5,038	So the BD looks like a HDNet broadcast.

09-14-09, 08:10 AM	#15 \| Link
Matt_Stevens Vengeful Sourpuss Join Date: May 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 12,386	The DVD's 192k bps track is shrill and empty, so even though it is there, it's a shell of what the PCM track on all the laserdiscs sounds like. Basically, there has yet to be a release that satisfies me on DVD or Blu-Ray. Cameron needs to step in here and personally ensure this one gets a proper release. __________________ New official site for The Kung-Fu STAR, coming Summer, 2010.

09-14-09, 08:21 AM	#16 \| Link
dumbjaw Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Posts: 21	Well, if I had to choose for the image only I'd still be buying the blu-ray. However slight the upgrade, with the screenshots full size I do like the BD best of all. In fact with the low pricing at the moment for the BD I might buy it as a temporary add-on to my US SE dvd (what a dreadful stretch by the way).

09-14-09, 09:45 AM	#18 \| Link
Matt_Stevens Vengeful Sourpuss Join Date: May 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 12,386	Everything. The entire soundtrack has been redone, replaced, reworked. Nothing sounds the same. In addition, numerous music pieces are actually missing because the composer redid the entire score on modern equipment, but forgot to do some of the music. It's a disaster. The worst remix ever done in Hollywood because it just throws out the original with no respect for it whatsoever. __________________ New official site for The Kung-Fu STAR, coming Summer, 2010.

09-14-09, 02:13 PM	#20 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Damnationdoormat AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,783	I still have the Image DVD for the original non-split 1.0 track.

09-14-09, 03:51 PM	#24 \| Link
PRO-630HD AVS Special Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,502	This was one of the first bluray titles I bought at the heavily bungled launch of the format. I had the 2001 special edition at the time and in comparing the 2 the difference was negligeble and this actually was one of the better looking blurays at launch.

09-14-09, 04:35 PM	#25 \| Link
Thunderbolt8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 447	excellent job on all those comprehensively done comparisons of yours :P

09-15-09, 12:12 PM	#27 \| Link
CRT Dude Advanced Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Hanover, PA Posts: 870	Has anyone ripped the fabled PCM mono track?

09-15-09, 01:21 PM	#28 \| Link
Jacob305 Advanced Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 958	dvd producer van ling is working on a new special edition bluray of terminator 1. it suppose to come out next year sometime. lowery is doing the remastering of the movie.. they have done other movies too. I have the bluray and I thought it was fine. Jacob