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Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS

57K views 754 replies 65 participants last post by  Easyaspie 
#1 ·
Do I need a better Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS?

I currently have a Monster Cable MP AV600 Power Protector.


I lost power last night numerous times during the rain storm here in VA (usually for 2-3 seconds, then it came back on).

My equipment is a 52 XBR-6 LCD, PS3, Wii, Denon 3310 receiver, SVS PC12 Plus Sub and DirecTV DVR HD box.

Should I get a better Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS?


When my power went out, it came back on faster than I could turn off my surge or turn off my TV before the power "kicked" back in. This kind of concerns me. Should I be concerned?


Thanks

Riverst
 
#52 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie /forum/post/18161408


Surge suppression devices are intended to be installed as sacrificial devices....your UPS...not so much.

First, any protector that is sacrificial provides no protection. Undersizing means a surge that cannot harm the adjacent appliance will destroy the undersized protector. Then the ill informed will post "surge protectors are sacrificial devices" and buy more.


A tiniest protector circuit is in UPSes. Near zero joules so that the manufacturer can hype "SURGE PROTECTION" in sale brochures. 'Near zero' protector is hyped as 100% protection by naive consumers. If it 'sacrifices' itself, then myths will promote that ineffective protection.


Install one 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. MOV manufacturers are even blunter. If an MOV is sacrificial, then it violates manufacturer's "Absolute Maximum Parameters". No MOV must fail by being sacrificial. But that myth gets ineffective and obscenely overpriced protectors promoted to naive consumers.



Second, voltage variation is not harmful to electronics. That myth is popular hearsay. Voltage variations are harmful to motorized appliances (refrigerators, air conditioner, furnace, washer, etc). So utility must keep voltage within 5%.


Meanwhile, voltage can vary so much that incandescent bulbs dim to 50%. And that is still perfectly ideal power to every electronic device. TRT is invited to learn numeric specs - to stop entertaining popular myths. Low voltage is harmful to motorized appliances - not to electronics.


Those who earth a 'whole house' protector for hundreds of times less money actually get longer lasting appliances. A 'whole house' protector is absolutely essential in central FL.


TRT claims his UPS is doing things even the manufacturer will not claim. For over 100 years, superior protection costs tens or 100 times less money. Monster Cable sells for $150 the same protector circuit that sells in grocery stores for $7. Monster must be better! It costs 20 times more money! Nonsense. Only the ill informed use price to measure quality.


How clean is that UPS output? In battery backup mode, this 120 volt UPS outputs two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Obvious. That UPS output is harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. Same 'dirty' power is also ideal to all electronics. Why? Electronics are so robust. Voltage variations and large spikes are not harmful to electronics - once we learn technology and dispose of popular urban myths.


If voltage variations are harmful, then his UPS should be on his refrigerator where low voltage actually causes problems. However that UPS output is also so 'dirty' as to be harmful to a refrigerator. TRT must learn spec numbers. Not 'know' by only from price. More dollars only promote quality when myths replace manufacturer numeric specs.
 
#53 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRT /forum/post/18161508


My question to you would simply be: What do you hope to accomplish by posting negative comments about products you feel are useless? You know what? Just to keep you from getting any sleep tonight, I'm going to buy a new expensive power cord for my useless UPS, and some cable elevators so the cord won't touch the ground



and my question to you would simply be: What do you hope to accomplish by posting positive comments about products you feel are useful? Just to keep you from getting any sleep tonight, I am never going to spend my money in cables and elevators.


boy, this is getting more fun by the minute. like i said got to love the double standards
 
#54 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom /forum/post/18161704


First, any protector that is sacrificial provides no protection.

...just because you think that 'you' have sized the protector adequately, does not mean it will not fail when subjected to a large surge. These are man made devices after all. And yes, the suppression equipment is intended to 'sacrifice' itself in order to 'save' downstream equipment.


Quote:
Undersizing means a surge that cannot harm the adjacent appliance will destroy the undersized protector. Then the ill informed will post "surge protectors are sacrificial devices" and buy more.

What?
 
#55 ·

Quote:
...just because you think that 'you' have sized the protector adequately, does not mean it will not fail when subjected to a large surge.

Just because you don't like reality does not change reality. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. That means the typical 20,000 amp direct lightning strike is earthed without protector damage. Even a recent 33,000 volt fault to local distribution blew hundreds of meters from the pan. He who had only one 'whole house' protector and proper earthing had no damage (except to his electric meter). 'Whole house' protectors are that effective.


Myths and lies easily promote junk science when numbers are not provided. Do you promoted myths. Or do you promote a solution that means, well, an IEEE standard puts numbers to it:

> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke

> per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...


Informed homeowners install one 'whole house' protector. Effective protection that costs about $1 per protected appliance.


Only more responsible companies provide effective 'whole house' protectors. Some include General Electric, Intermatic, Leviton, Polyphaser, Siemens, and Square D. An effective Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Solutions posted and reposted.


Reality does not change only because you do not like it. Solutions reposted so that an informed homeowner can install effective protection for many times less money than mythical 'line conditioners' and UPS protectors. Reposted because so much hype and spin has been posted.


As demonstrated repeatedly by facts and numbers: protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as the protection it connects to - single point earth ground. That reality does not change.


Every layer of protection is defined by the only item that defines a protection layer - earth ground. 'Whole house' protector is the homeowner's 'secondary' surge protection. Homeowners should also inspect their other protection layer: 'primary' surge protection
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Each protection layer is defined only by what provides protection: earthing.
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie /forum/post/18163618


No hype or spin....you simply do not read or understand what has been written here.

Is it only now that you are realizing this? Heck, this was evident the first time he blabbed on about a maxim chip being capable of surviving 15,000 volts. No sane engineer would claim this.


edit:And, he culls two port failures out of 15 year old papers, and uses the blurbs to impugn one port supressors. Devices which the author of the papers he is culling from already concludes are good for the designed task.


It's as if he earns a living installing whole house protection systems and needs to trash the product of others, isn't it?


Cheers, John
 
#58 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron /forum/post/18166366


Is it only now that you are realizing this? Heck, this was evident the first time he blabbed on about a maxim chip being capable of surviving 15,000 volts. No sane engineer would claim this.


Cheers, John

No, I had this epiphany a few hundred posts back as well. It is only when I have to repeat myself that I begin to realize my own insanity.
 
#59 ·
I read this great thread, thx to all who contributed.


I'm using a Brickwall plus an ExactPower power conditioner/voltage stablizer for my main tv in the living room (Sony 60XBR1 SXRD, B&K receiver, etc).


For my bedroom, I just bought the Sony 46EX500 this week. I only have the Sony plugged into a standard powerbar-type of surge protector. It's a standard one that one would buy at any Bestbuy-type store (a brand like CyberPower or something like that, not a brand that I'd typically go for, but I bought it around 5 years ago and left it in some box so I have in the apartment). I have it laying around the house and thought that it's better than nothing.


By way of background, I live in NYC/Manhattan, which may or may not influence the replies/answers. (i.e. i'm not in Florida where I understand they have frequent power interruptions)


May I ask if I should buy a UPS device that has voltage stabilizer built-in in order to not let the Sony 46EX500 "suffer" through various small brown outs? Or, is that an over kill as tv's may well be designed to work acceptably well, or at least not be damaged, by voltage fluctuations of, say, +/- 15%?


If so, which UPS device or voltage stabilizer device should I buy? I do not wish to over spend nor do I wish to under spend to not adequately protect this tv or allow it to produce good results. I'm sure that large voltage fluctuations can't be good for the Sony 46EX500, but who's to say that standard, NYC-type voltage fluctuations aren't perfectly fine for this tv and possibly, Sony even designed INTO its power supply for this type of typical and usual power fluctuations for big cities?


Would this Monoprice/no name brand device work well? Or is it somewhat substandard? Please see:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...=2#description


Its specs include:

Input: 110V/115V120V VAC +/- 25%;

Output: Simulated sine wave at nominal voltage +/-5%


I'm NOT at all stuck on purchasing from Monoprice, especially this isn't a simple cable item, but just thought that i'd take this conversation out of the theoretical realm and into practical world for some real-world suggestions of specific items that are solid, practical "buys".


I do notice that the lights in my apartment may dim from time to time, though not often. I've even noticed a very short "major" blip in power where I see an actual flicker in all the lights, and hear the solenoids click off and on in my various UPS devices for my PC. It's short, but obvious. They are not frequent though.


I look forward to hearing advice from the good folks here. Thanks in advance.
 
#60 ·
Voltage sags that produce visible dimming are to be expected. It doesn't take much of a change in voltage to cause a noticeable change in output of an incandescent lamp. Utility companies have standards for how much the voltage may change , for how long, and how often. Nominal voltage plus or minus 6% is considered OK by many utilities and your AV gear is designed for that environment or worse.


Losing power is no more damaging to your equipment than turning it off. A UPS is necessary only for things you want to continue to function while the power is off. Some folks install them to protect the lamp in projection equipment. IMHO that is pure bunk. If the fan does not run, the glass cools down more slowly (equivalent to annealing it) making it less likely to shatter. What you don't want is a restrike while the lamp is still hot, which is a different matter. Besides lamp protection, some folks want their DVR to keep running so they don't miss an episode of their favorite show. And some folks have reported losing settings on equipment during power failures, although I have never experienced this except for reverting to a save volume setting on some equipment.
 
#61 ·
Colm: thx for your reply post.


in addition to the scenarios you mentioned, what about the situation when there's a short power brown out or actual very brief outage, and when the power comes back on shortly thereafter, even a second or less, wouldn't the power bursting back be tantamount to a power surge of sorts?


alternatively, if there's a series of short power drops, i.e. reduced voltage multiple times, however briefly, when the power resumes "full steam" at full voltage, wouldn't that possibly create a power surge when it come back on?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm /forum/post/18174176


Voltage sags that produce visible dimming are to be expected. It doesn't take much of a change in voltage to cause a noticeable change in output of an incandescent lamp. Utility companies have standards for how much the voltage may change , for how long, and how often. Nominal voltage plus or minus 6% is considered OK by many utilities and your AV gear is designed for that environment or worse.


Losing power is no more damaging to your equipment than turning it off. A UPS is necessary only for things you want to continue to function while the power is off. Some folks install them to protect the lamp in projection equipment. IMHO that is pure bunk. If the fan does not run, the glass cools down more slowly (equivalent to annealing it) making it less likely to shatter. What you don't want is a restrike while the lamp is still hot, which is a different matter. Besides lamp protection, some folks want their DVR to keep running so they don't miss an episode of their favorite show. And some folks have reported losing settings on equipment during power failures, although I have never experienced this except for reverting to a save volume setting on some equipment.
 
#62 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by eieio /forum/post/18174469


alternatively, if there's a series of short power drops, i.e. reduced voltage multiple times, however briefly, when the power resumes "full steam" at full voltage, wouldn't that possibly create a power surge when it come back on?

You are reading too many assumptions provided without 'reasons why'. Your first indication is this: no supporting facts and numbers imply you are being scammed.


No voltage surge is created by power on. Does not exist. Power restoration usually means voltage rises slow. If power on creates a surge, then a massive and far more destructive surge occurs when the appliance is powered on by its switch.


Electronics are not harmed by low voltage. In fact, low voltage on startup is so desirable that sometimes we include a current inrush limiter to intentionally create that low voltage.


How often do your lights dim to 50%? Now you have 'test equipment'. Never? Why are you curing what does not exist - and is not destructive? Probably because a majority told you what to believe without any reasons why and without numbers.


Anything that Exactpower conditioner is doing must already be inside the Sony. Nothing posted (with the reasons why) says that Exactpower is doing anything useful.


This 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. And it has the same numeric specs that your Monoprice UPS has. Is that cleaner power? Only if you are listening to recommendations that come without those numbers.


Why is that 200 volt square wave with 270 volt spike not harmful to the Sony? Because protection already in the Sony makes 'dirty' electricity from that Monoprice irrelevant. Why do so many forget how robust the Sony already is or the 'dirty' power from most UPSes?


Above statements were posted previously. For example:

> Losing power is no more damaging to your equipment than turning it off. A UPS is

> necessary only for things you want to continue to function while the power is off.


Or:

> Second, voltage variation is not harmful to electronics. That myth is popular hearsay.

And then read the also required reasons why to know which post was based in reality.


That's it. If grasping what was posted, then you should have understood Exactpower and Monoprice devices were doing near nothing. And learned an effective protector must be located far from electronics and as close to earth as possible.


Posted repeatedly were pragmatic solutions. One is using the Siemens 20/20 protector and breaker. Other solutions are provided by General Electric, Siemens, Polyphaser, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Square D and a host of other 'more responsible' companies. In every case, appliance protection is not about any protector or 'magic' box. In every case, protection is about connections to earth ground.


That line conditioner and UPS do not do what retail salesmen said. Previous posts made that obvious and included pragmatic solutions. Solutions with the always *required reasons* why. Defined so often that your "suffer through various small brown outs" should never have been posted. 'Small brown outs' are harmful only if you entertained myths made obvious due to no numbers. You have an obvious number. How often do your incandescent bulbs dim to 50%? Near zero? Then what electronics would consider a brownout does not exist.
 
#63 ·
Westom - Do electronics which operate outside ideal operating specifications operate *correctly* under those conditions? Worded in another way: would a consumer detect a noticeable change in performance from a dirty power stream?


I ask this because some of your assertions are focused on preventing equipment loss as opposed to improving sound/video quality. In your mind, is it even possible for a dirty power stream to impede audio or picture quality?
 
#64 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18183184


Westom - Do electronics which operate outside ideal operating specifications operate *correctly* under those conditions? Worded in another way: would a consumer detect a noticeable change in performance from a dirty power stream?

How far (in numbers) is 'dirty' power? No discussion is honest without the numbers (which is why Saddam had WMDs). No honest answer is possible when a technical question is subjective.


Incandescent bulb dims to 50%. And any minimally acceptable electronic appliance works perfectly normal. Why? Electronic circuits only see internal DC voltages. Its power supply supplies DC voltage completely unchanged even when the bulb is at 50% intensity. An answer with numbers that is only an example. Does not answer your question because your question cites a junk science term: 'dirty electricity'.


For example, how low can voltage go before one TV cut out? This author was honest because numbers were provided:

"Motheboard Problem? Post Problem?" on 7 Sept 2001 by Tom MacIntyre

> Switching supplies (more and more TV's, and all monitors I've ever seen), on the

> other hand, are different. ... the best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I

> turned the variac down to 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the

> picture on that set.


Meanwhile, others who are reading subjectively rather than technically will 'assume' 37 volts caused hardware damage. Die means it powered off because DC voltages did not remain constant.


Which anomaly are you discussing? Brownout? Harmonics? Noise? Spikes? Intermittent cutoff? Surges? Frequency variation? To have an answer means your question must eliminate that 'junk science' term. Dirty is a word created, for example, so that a technically ignorant management will feel that they *know*.


Meanwhile, normal 'dirty' electricity is completely irrelevant to electronics. What is 'normal'? Your question was subjective. So the answer is subjective - and virtually useless. To have a useful answer, for example, you post the manufacturer numeric specs. Again, useful answers mean numbers - not subjective claims from a sales brochure intentionally designed to deceive.


Electronic power supplies make events such as thousand of volt' spikes irrelevant. Light bulb dims to 50% intensity and what happens to internal DC voltages? Nothing. No change. Two examples of the tens if not hundreds of functions performed (and required) inside a power supply. Appreciate the significant protection that must exist inside all appliances. And why so many who post subjective claims are often posting myths and lies. There is no honest answer without the numbers. We are not just discussing electronics and electricity.
 
#65 ·
Well thanks for putting more effort into condescending the question than actually trying to answer it. Sweet. I feel like I know less now than when I started, and I'm less likely to bother asking a question of an expert in the future. That's double points for you. Congrats.
 
#66 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18183184


Westom - Do electronics which operate outside ideal operating specifications operate *correctly* under those conditions? Worded in another way: would a consumer detect a noticeable change in performance from a dirty power stream?


I ask this because some of your assertions are focused on preventing equipment loss as opposed to improving sound/video quality. In your mind, is it even possible for a dirty power stream to impede audio or picture quality?

Most claims of improved audio and video quality by "power conditioner" manufactures are hogwash just as are most AV cable claims. Just about any consumer electronic device today has a regulated power supply at least in critical circuit areas. Most electronics has some form of internal spike protection.
 
#67 ·
Glimmie your response was much more helpful, thanks. I'm trying to get a baseline for whether or not the power source even matters to sound quality. After reading this thread I've decided to have a whole-house surge protection system installed at the utility source (along with CATV protection), but I was curious to see if power source affected output at all. Specifically because I was planning on getting a battery backup for my PS3 and my HD-DVR and I don't wanna drop a bunch of change on a receiver that's going to sound like crap because of it.
 
#68 ·
Hmmm.. Lots of opinions, some science, and a lot of insults floating around this thread. For the record, I am an EE, but not a PE specializing in power systems. We live in an area that has frequent lightning as well as frequent power outages (usually very brief, thankfully). My opinions/experience, without all the references (the books are at work, and if you are curious you can read them for yourself, from IEEE/IEE or other sources):


1. A whole-house protector helps but is not the end-all and be-all, particularly in the event of a direct strike. In that case, the lightning can set fire to the house on its way to the ground no matter what you have at the service box. I have seen it happen.


Aside: I do have whole-house protection, surge and lightning (two separate units). About $300 installed, as I recall, about 10 years ago.


2. MOVs are also sacrificial. Repeated surges/spikes will cause them to gradually get "leaky" and shift their threshold. I have read 3 - 10 year lifetime depending on how hard the are "used". The bad thing is that you can't really tell when they need replacing without pulling them out and measuring them. At which point you might as well replace them anyway.


3. A lot of damage comes from things turning back on, as the line hits motors and other inductive loads (fridge, furnace fan, etc.) A fundamental law is that current in an inductor cannot change instantaneously, so the voltage spikes. In fact, I read an article years ago in an electronics journal for consumer products (from the IEEE, but it's buried in a box in the basement and I am lazy) that most of the time the damage was done when power was restored, not lost. (Lightning strikes are another matter.)


Aside: Less prevalent now, one of the common ways to extend life was to control the in-rush current via thermistors -- resistors that change resistance with temperature. Very common in TVs, radios, etc. They start out cold and high in resistance, then as the current flows after you turn the component on, they heat up and their resistance drops so the component operates normally. A big problem with rapid power cycles (like the lights blinking off then right back on) is that thermistors don't have time to cool down, so when the power pops back on there's a large and potentially damaging current spike. I have several semi-funny stories from my decade or two of TV repair of husbands and wives and various siblings fighting over the TV, turning it on and off, and the TV going dead.


4. Because of this, and because rapidly cycling power is rarely a good thing for any electronic component, I use a UPS on just about everything I own. It is not to prevent damage from direct strikes, nor to do much in the way of "cleaning up" the lines, but to protect the stuff when the power blips on and off. I don't have enough for the power amps and big stuff, but enough to keep the TV, receiver, game consoles, and little stuff all perking along happily until I can turn it all off.


5, FWIWFM, I depend upon my whole-house units to protect from indirect strikes (which have happened, including a strike about 50 feet from the house), and my little (well, sort-of, as I have from 350 to 1500 VA units) UPS units to help save the electronics from power cycles that happen all too frequently out in the sticks. Note that, since I only use them to save things until I shut them off, I don't get the more expensive models, with one exception: I have a Smart-Ups on my aquarium to keep the fishies alive while not burning out the pump motors from the switching transients in the simpler (cheaper) units.


My 0.000001 cents (one microcent; you get what you pay for!) - Don
 
#69 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 /forum/post/18186837


1. A whole-house protector helps but is not the end-all and be-all, particularly in the event of a direct strike. In that case, the lightning can set fire to the house ...

2. MOVs are also sacrificial. Repeated surges/spikes will cause them to gradually get "leaky" and shift their threshold. ...

3. A lot of damage comes from things turning back on, as the line hits motors and other inductive loads (fridge, furnace fan, etc.) A fundamental law is that current in an inductor cannot change instantaneously, so the voltage spikes....

5, FWIWFM, I depend upon my whole-house units to protect from indirect strikes (which have happened, including a strike about 50 feet from the house), and my little (well, sort-of, as I have from 350 to 1500 VA units)

1) The term 'direct lightning strike' does not discuss lightning to a roof. Context. Direct strike is lightning to any wires entering the house. A direct strike to AC electric wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to household appliances - if permitted inside the building.


A minimal 50,000 amp 'whole house' protector is not be damaged by the typical 20,000 amp direct lightning strike. Because that protector is earthed to make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Lightning protection for the roof and chimney is not relevant here.


2) MOVs are sacrifical only when designed to provide near zero protection. Properly designed protector only degrade. Any MOV that is sacrifical is operating outside of its Absolute Maxiumum Parameters. Even degraded MOVs must not fail catastrophically. Degraded MOVs simply change their threshold voltage by 10%. Even a direct lightning strike must not cause that degradation.


3) As noted, power on after a blackout can be destructive to inductive (motorized) appliances. This because power sometimes restores too slowly. No voltage surge exists. During power on, all protectors would remain inert (do nothing) because voltages are well below thresholds.


5) All appliances contain signficant protection. Even make AC voltage variations so irrelevant that internal DC voltags remain stable. So that this protection is not overwhelmed by direct lightning strikes, a 'whole house' protector is earthed (or direct earthing w/o protector for cable TV and satellite dish).
 
#70 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18186719


After reading this thread I've decided to have a whole-house surge protection system installed at the utility source (along with CATV protection),

CATV needs no protector. Protectors are not protection. Protetion is what the effective protector connects to. CATV needs no protector to make that short connection to single point ground. Protectors are only used on utility wires that cannot be earthed directly - ie AC electric, telephone.
 
#71 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18186528


Well thanks for putting more effort into condescending the question than actually trying to answer it. Sweet. I feel like I know less now than when I started, and I'm less likely to bother asking a question of an expert in the future. That's double points for you. Congrats.

Why do you believe you have asked an "expert"? An expert understands the fundamentals.


That was your first mistake. Expect condescending answers from w-man, that is par for the course.


There are three issues I have seen with power fluctuations.


1. The inrush current of a soft start SMPS can be disrupted by line fluctuations. Given that many are made as cheaply as possible, this can be significant.


2. An inrush current after the balance of the active circuitry is up and running may not be specifically designed for.


3. A wild fluctuation of power in a residential system where there is also a spinning motor, like a fridge or AC unit, can easily create a larger transient that gets another device in the house to "capitulate" to the inevitable...


Simple xfmr/diode/cap designs are typically more robust.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie /forum/post/18186667


Most claims of improved audio and video quality by "power conditioner" manufactures are hogwash just as are most AV cable claims. Just about any consumer electronic device today has a regulated power supply at least in critical circuit areas. Most electronics has some form of internal spike protection.

I agree in general here, although single ended audio systems do have some interesting "additional features" which have ground loop issues.


Cheers, John
 
#72 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom /forum/post/18187691


CATV needs no protector. Protectors are not protection. Protetion is what the effective protector connects to. CATV needs no protector to make that short connection to single point ground. Protectors are only used on utility wires that cannot be earthed directly - ie AC electric, telephone.

Are you trying to say that CATV can be grounded easily? If so, would a simple CATV ground block suffice? I saw one in Radio Shack last night for less than $2 which seemed like its only requirement was CATV to pass through it and then Cu to run to my home's ground. I'm trying really hard to understand your paragraph but the true meaning is escaping me.


Since you folks seem to know a lot about grounding, let me ask your opinions on the situation in my home: I have municipal water running to my house (which I'm quite certain is a plastic pipe) and my electrical system appears to be grounded to my plumbing; there's no grounding rod anywhere in my basement. Is my electrical system even grounded correctly? Whole house protection won't do me any good if my water line isn't a proper ground correct?
 
#75 ·

Are you trying to say that CATV can be grounded easily? If so, would a simple CATV ground block suffice? QUOTE]

Your $2 block is equivalent to what every cable company must already install. But only you are responsible for the earth ground. If you did not provide proper earthing, then cable company had nothing to properly earth to.


I am completely confused why this is complicated. Every wire in every utility cable must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the single point earth ground. Why is that complex? Either a connection made by a direct wire (from the cable ground block) or via a protector.


Water pipe grounding is insufficient. If you do not have some other earthing electrode, then your grounding does not even meet 1990 National Electrical code. Surge protection means earthing must meet and also exceed those requirements.


Where does the telco wire meet yours? That is where a telco 'provided for free' surge protector is located. Now follow the green or gray solid wire from that NID box to single point earth ground.


Follow a solid quarter inch bare copper wire from breaker box outside to where it connects to the same dedicated earth ground. Does it go over the foundation and down to earth? Is it among other electric wires? Does it have sharp wire bends? Insufficient for each reason. For example, to exceed code, every wire connection to single point ground is short (ie 'less than ten feet'). As you now appreciate, nothing posted will make any sense until you go out and view what actually exists. Nobody will understand anything posted here without actually viewing the existing panels, boxes, and connections.


Follow the cable TV ground wire. CATV company must install it. If connected to a water pipe or faucet, then you have a code violation AND no surge protection. In every case, if that ground wire does not exist and does not meet all at the same earthing electrode, then you have no surge protection. A serious problem that must be fixed.


One utility demonstrates how to make a single point ground when previous installers did work incorrectly - did not even meet code:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp


Above is only secondary protection. Each protection layer is only defined by it earth ground (the only always required component). You should also inspect your 'primary' surge protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html


Utilities buried or overhead make no difference. Same surge threats exist. Same earthing solutions apply. Any wire (overhead or underground) that interconnects two structures must be earthed (single point) at the entrance of each structure.
 
#73 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18188559


I'm trying really hard to understand your paragraph but the true meaning is escaping me.

I also find the meaning escaping me..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18188559


Since you folks seem to know a lot about grounding, let me ask your opinions on the situation in my home: I have municipal water running to my house (which I'm quite certain is a plastic pipe) and my electrical system appears to be grounded to my plumbing; there's no grounding rod anywhere in my basement. Is my electrical system even grounded correctly? Whole house protection won't do me any good if my water line isn't a proper ground correct?



There are two issues covered by the NEC.


1. 250.4 states... ...shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.


Where your AC power comes to the house, there should be a meter. At that spot, there should also be a grounding electrode...if there is none, you may have an issue.


2. Bonding of normally non current carrying conductive materials. If you have some copper piping and a water heater or baseboard heating, it may be possible for the copper to become hot to ground. This can occur as a result of a fault in a dishwasher, clotheswasher, water heater, oil or gas heater.. All the copper plumbing must be bonded (connected by properly sized wire to the service panel grounding/neutral terminal) so that a short to the plumbing will not cause lethal voltages to exist, but cause the circuit breaker to open.


The gentleman who taught a code refresher course here talked about a house install where the copper plumbing was interrupted by a length of plastic pipe, but the drain system was still fully connected to ground. The result was the TUB drain was grounded, but the hot/cold water system was floating....the dishwasher faulted and made the water hot to ground...every so often, the water spray in the shower was electrically hot with respect to the tub drain...


Do the math...


If you have ANY concern whatsoever that your house or house plumbing is not properly grounded or earthed, call in an electrician immediately..do not horse around with a so called "expert" on ANY internet forum. (the only exception to that is Mike Holt's forum, there you WILL be speaking to experts.)


Cheers, John


ps.. whole house water filters can interrupt the ground continuity as well. Code requires a jumper bonded around anything that interrupts the piping.
 
#74 ·
jneutron thanks for your input!


From your post I've determined that I should check OUTSIDE the foundation of the house for the real ground in my system. It seems as though the plumbing is grounded to the circuit breaker (thick copper wire coming from water line goes into breaker box) and that there is likely another lead going up and over the foundation wall into the ground outside my house. I thought it was the other way around before I read your post but I'm relieved I have something else to check for.


To me this means that whomever installs my whole-house surge protector will know exactly where the real ground is. I never mentioned this but all of my utilities are buried, so it would make sense that the ground would be outside and not inside. At least it makes sense to me.


I'm still a little fuzzy on how to properly "protect" my residence from current entering the house via CATV.
 
#76 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18189138


I'm still a little fuzzy on how to properly "protect" my residence from current entering the house via CATV.

Ok..it is easily explained.


The bad stuff can get into your house in two ways, by conduction, and by induction.. conduction is by the wires, the bolt, or by capacitance. Induction is the magnetic field of the bolt causing voltages to be created within conductive loops..


My previous post was a quote from the National Electric Code, and explains how lightning can be conducted into the house...



1. 250.4 states... ...shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.


If a bolt hits something, the current of that bolt goes into the earth. Along the surface of the earth, there will be voltage drops just as current in a wire produces voltage drops.


If you have two ground rods, one on each side of the house, and a bolt hits near one, the other rod will have a huge voltage difference from the first. If the cable is grounded to the second, the electric to the first, whatever electronic device that connects the two is fried...the tv. This is called a "two port scenario", a device which connects to two different entities. This is what some surge protector devices (SPD)'s are designed to protect against, and requires the cable, telephone lines be plugged into and out of the surge protector device.


So the basic premise is to have only one connection to the earth, and make that at the electric service entrance and tie everything at this point.


The closer the cables are when they tie to the earth, the less a voltage potential that will exist between them when an event occurs. Your cable company should have put a device in the cable line very close to the ground rod of the service, and that device will help stop a bolt transient from making the cable high voltage with respect to the ground/neutral of the appliances in the house.


For appliances which connect only to the outlet "a single port device", a surge protector which does not have the extra ports is perfectly fine. It will provide a certain amount of protection. But it is important to keep in mind that a single port SPD WILL NOT protect a two port device such as a tv or cable box or computer, as it does not connect to the other cable. Others on this forum (w-man) have confused these two types of SPD's, so provide incorrect advice.


Induction is caused by the magnetic field pulse of the bolt. The closer you get to the bolt, the more magnetic field change occurs. This is basically how the secondary of a transformer works. If there is a big loop, there will be a big induced voltage. If for example, your stereo is susceptible to pops and clicks from appliances in your house, you may have a loop at the amp inputs, and this loop could pickup a bolt EMP and fry the input stage of your amp.


Cheers, John
 
#77 ·
It seems as if some posts are preaching unqualified ultimatums without a true understanding of the many scenarios that exist.


Around here, very few of the utilities are properly earthed. The age of the utilities and grandfathered situations can be pretty astounding. For instance, here was the state of my home upon purchase. It wasn't an unusual situation for this region.


There were active gas lines to the ceiling fixture of every room on all four floors as well as the front and back porch. These were used for lighting at one time but were eventually replaced with knob and tube wiring. Because the "new" wiring was knob and tube, none of the circuits were grounded. There were 6 fuse boxes scattered around the house. The water line was bonded but was made out of solid lead and was quite oxidized. There were no ground rods connected to the main panel. Multiple breakers connected to a single circuit.


A separate rod was driven for cable TV but the connector was broken anyway.


Three copper phone lines were strung from the pole, each consisting of three individually insulated copper conductors. Yes, three wires per phone line!? The phone lines also went through ancient party-line resisters. Imagine how old those must be!


Hot and neutral were backward on most of the circuits. MWBC were on separate single pole breakers and some were even on the same leg. Neutral was switched instead of hot. 3-way lights were wired with a "california-3-way" scheme meaning both conductors would at times carry either hot or neutral. The light could be off but all conductors to it were live.


A bad neutral pigtail on a MWBC fried some electronics after it was pulled loose while fishing other wires.


There was stray voltage on the iron sewage drain leaving the house as well as the gas line.


The new ground rods I installed are only 3 feet from the neighbor's foundation and old iron roof drains.


The list could go on and on...


The moral of the story is that a whole house surge protector isn't the whole solution. In a perfect world, it might be. But here in Pittsburgh at least, the safest solution isn't as obvious as it might seem.
 
#78 ·
@Westom - are you suggesting that if I cannot find copper ground rounds inside my home beneath my circuit breaker, that my home is not properly grounded?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler /forum/post/18196175


The moral of the story is that a whole house surge protector isn't the whole solution. In a perfect world, it might be. But here in Pittsburgh at least, the safest solution isn't as obvious as it might seem.

It sounds like the safest solution in your case would be to move out!
 
#79 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duositex /forum/post/18196931


It sounds like the safest solution in your case would be to move out!

lol, i'm sure that my description is surprising to those in newer parts of the country.


Unfortunately, moving isn't a solution. The next home I move into would likely be just as bad. This is especially true for cities that were once wealthy but then had an economic bust and massive population decline. With roughly 50% of the population it once had, houses around here tend to be old and have had little if any renovation in more than a century.


All across the rust belt are entire cities filled with homes like I describe. Certainly not an ideal situation. But really, it doesn't represent a huge danger relative to all of life's other dangers. Being in compliance with the newest codes would be safer, but it isn't like we're suffering a significantly higher rate of electrocution, fires, or electronics damage. While I did opt to completely rewired my home and fixed all of the problems described above, doing so wasn't anywhere near the top of the priority list. Instead, my priorities were more like, fix the 20 concrete crumbling steps to the front porch, install hand rails, secure loose slate shingles, replace porch gutters so that sidewalks are sidewalks instead of ice skating rinks, fix sidewalk upheaval to prevent tripping, cut dead branches out of trees, repair roof flashing, repoint foundation so that walls don't collapse, patch main roof box gutters to prevent the severe ongoing water damage... etc.



With this in mind, in the real world (around here), when the cable guy comes out to do work, he's sometimes dealing with the situation described above. In which case, he tends to just screw together the rain-tight coaxial connector and call it done. Hence some of the questions we see about proper grounding block use. When not planning on bringing the entire premises up to code, the safest or even most code compliant solution isn't always obvious.
 
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