Salt Lake City, UT - HDTV

kenglish · 10-13-07, 04:19 PM

I think it has a lot to do with feeding translator and Cable systems.

I remember the "standards" calling for making the "-1" channel the HD feed, but that got sidetracked (by KSL and others) when we found that STBs would always default back to the -1 subchannel, and we'd get the wrong signal on the air at translator sites and Cable headends. Now, we have some more-stable receivers, so it doesn't happen so often.

TheOtherOne · 10-13-07, 06:38 PM

So how do channels 2, 4 and 5 manage to get an SD feed to translators and cable companies? Are they just using the analog signal and if so does that mean when analog turns off we'll have to deal with SD digital feeds from them too?

kenglish · 10-14-07, 09:40 AM

Right now, the translators and smaller Cable companies are all using the OTA HD feed, and taking a center-cut "crop", AFAIK.

We send Comcast a direct fiber-optic feed of HD, WeatherPlus, and analog. We send an analog feed, via fiber, to DirecTV and DISH Network, and they take OTA for HD.

We suspect we will continue to feed the analog 4:3 signals to all three providers for the foreseeable future, since Cable is required to provide an analog Local TV service for three years beyond the "analog OTA switchover". I have not heard any plans from satellite for changing their locals' services to SDTV customers...that would require a huge investment in new receivers and dishes.

cwood · 10-14-07, 10:45 AM

A question for Ken English and perhaps it's been asked in past posts. I've only recently been able to watch KSL in HD over DISH. The studio HD looks distinctly poorer in quality than NBC network studio HD. KSL HD looks more like upconverted SD even with composite video artifacts such as an obvious artifact that looks like a chroma/luminance error. What's the deal? What type/whose brand of studio cameras is KSL using? Thanks.

GeorgeLV · 10-14-07, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwood

A question for Ken English and perhaps it's been asked in past posts. I've only recently been able to watch KSL in HD over DISH. The studio HD looks distinctly poorer in quality than NBC network studio HD. KSL HD looks more like upconverted SD even with composite video artifacts such as an obvious artifact that looks like a chroma/luminance error. What's the deal? What type/whose brand of studio cameras is KSL using? Thanks.

Despite what the promos may lead you to believe, KSL doesn't do HD news. It's just 16:9 SD upconverted.

kenglish · 10-15-07, 09:28 AM

Hey! Shhhhh!
You're not supposed to notice that.

Scotty Rig · 10-15-07, 04:13 PM

For all those in Cache Valley waiting for KJZZ broadcasts in digital, here is the response I received from Mel Parkes who is the Broadcast Engineer for KJZZ:
Thank you for the email and interest regarding the KJZZ TV Translator on Mt Pisgah. At present we do not have equipment at KJZZ to actually produce a HD product, but our plans are to do that in the future. Our present HD Transmitter uses our Analog signal and sends it out in SD to all the viewers who are able to receive it. This SD signal from our HD TV Transmitter is what we receive at the Mt Pisgah site for our translator and we convert it back to analog for the viewers in Cache County. We do have plans in the future to go all Digital (SD) and a t a date yet to be determined our products will be in HD.

I agree with you that the SD and HD format are far superior to the analog, but for the time being we are trying to accommodate the greatest number of viewers with the resources we have available. As we move in the direction of HD Cache County is one of our highest priorities outside of the Wasatch Front.

kenglish · 10-15-07, 05:56 PM

We are using the BTS/Philips LDK10 and 10P studio and hand-held cameras for in-studio use (all 480i 16:9).

Next years' budget includes new studio cameras, camera pedestals, switcher, monitoring gear, and up/down/side-conversion equipment, to do 1080i origination from the studios.
Field acquisition will probably go HD the following year.

When we built the DTV transmission facilities in 1999, we also converted all of our studio production and field production to 16:9 SDTV capability.

BTW, one of our Master Control ops has DISH Network HD, and she says that none of our signal (network or otherwise) looks like real HDTV to her.

airiox · 10-15-07, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenglish

Looks like our new DTV transmitter will be here in a few days. We're replacing the old (circa 1998) one (dual/redundant system). Hopefully, it gets installed soon...we lost a filament supply last night, so KSL-DT is running at reduced power.

Also, our replacement section of our analog (channel 5) antenna arrived from Germany. So, we can maybe get it back on the better antenna.

Thanks for that info... It's been out for a few days now and am going to have to be forced to watch heroes online tonight. Still waiting for the new reciever?

g35driver · 10-16-07, 04:03 AM

Bump for UT!!!!!

aramus8 · 10-16-07, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenglish

BTW, one of our Master Control ops has DISH Network HD, and she says that none of our signal (network or otherwise) looks like real HDTV to her.

Dish drops the resolution of their HD signals to 1440 x 1080 as they have bandwidth issues. From what I've seen on the satellite forums, most of their subscribers don't even notice, but I'm sure your op looks at things with a much more critical eye.

Scotty Rig · 10-16-07, 11:15 AM

Ken, Does KSL have any plans to multicast any other channels ota in the near future?

kenglish · 10-16-07, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty Rig

Ken, Does KSL have any plans to multicast any other channels ota in the near future?

We feel that we are about max'ed out with a 1080i HD, DD5.1, a 480i SD, and it's DD2.0.

We will probably have to add another DD2.0 for Spanish/Descriptive Video Service eventually. That will take up another 192 KBpS. But I doubt we will add another video service.

utfire · 10-16-07, 05:08 PM

Hey all, just wanted to jump on and let you know we now have Tabby Mountain and Duchesne City HDTV channels up and running.
Tabby has KUTV, KTVX, KSL, FOX, KJZZ, KUED, KBYU and WB on the air.
Duchesne has KUTV, KTVX, KSL, KUED and FOX on the air.
And just for additional info, Vernal has Blue Mountain with Channels;
KUTV, KTVX, KSL, FOX, KJZZ, KUED, KBYU on the air.
Lets hope the weather holds out so I can get my last two sites up and running!
Terry
Duchesne and Uinta County TV

kenglish · 10-16-07, 07:42 PM

I just gave the info to the News producer. She may have them mention it on the next show...."Attention, Eastern Utah viewers: Run a quick scan on your new TV set, and you can be watching us in HDTV before the next commercial!"

utfire · 10-16-07, 10:00 PM

Thanks Ken, believe it or not we have a number of people watching in HD!
Really incredible stuff, we've been very happy!!!

andycarleton · 10-16-07, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbird29

We changed the settings to advance audio vs video.
Different tuners are really starting to show that there is no manufacturing reference standard for lip sync.

post up if it better tonight.

Hey dbird,
I just surfed into Dancing With The Stars on 4.1 OTA and it seems to me that audio is still later than the video. 2.1 and 5.1 are okay on my Toshiba set.

andycarleton · 10-16-07, 10:10 PM

Thanks Terry,
I'm gonna haul my Hisense tuner up to Tabby next time I go and see what I get.

airiox · 10-16-07, 11:55 PM

Anyone know why when it rains hard virtually all of the HD signals get knocked out? At least that is the case here in Highland.

Also Ken, 5 has been out for about a week now, still waiting on that new transmitter?

Sharkzilla · 10-17-07, 12:19 AM

I'm glad to find a thread for the Utah HD'ers! I'm new to the HD world and live in Orem. I'm going to read through a few pages tonight and see if I can get things up and running. The rabbit ears aren't working for me, so I'm going with a rooftop antenna this week. Everything HD is broadcast in UHF, correct?

mikemikeb · 10-17-07, 01:07 AM

Sharkzilla: Currently, everything in HD from the SLC transmitter farm is on UHF. In 2009, Fox 13 HD will go to VHF from there (if you would pick up signals from there -- I've never been even near there), but a Channel Master 4228 or 4221 UHF bowtie would work fine for 13 then, even in some attics. I'm not sure if any translators are on / will go to VHF.

kenglish · 10-17-07, 09:49 AM

Two LD stations: 3ABN (currently on 26) will go to channel 8, staying on Foothill Drive, and Telemundo's KULX-LP (licensed to Ogden) will move to Little Farnsworth on channel 10.

I wouldn't expect a UHF to do well on those, though. My experience with using a UHF antenna on high-band VHF is, the patterns are different....it's lobe for channel 9 (for instance) is about 30 degrees off axis. 13 might be OK, due to strength alone, but could be tough in a bad multi-path area. We'll just have to see.

We need to import some combo HB and UHF antennas

.

BeamMeUpScotty · 10-17-07, 09:59 AM

Can anyone recommend specific preamp/amp hardware for OTA on-the-fuzzy-edge-of-broadcast-range signal boosting? I'm in south Payson, and most of the time I get all DTV channels nice and clear -- oh, unless there's a drop of water in the sky, then the channels start disappearing. First KUTV (and I really like The Unit), then KSTU, then all the rest.

Question two:
What about real southern Utah county (Santaquin)? Any hope for those guys getting OTA DTV?

kenglish · 10-17-07, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airiox

Anyone know why, when it rains hard, virtually all of the HD signals get knocked out? At least that is the case here in Highland...
Also Ken, 5 has been out for about a week now, still waiting on that new transmitter?

If you are losing all the channels when it rains, you probably need more antenna...the exception being when the stations are all running very-low power for some daytime antenna maintenance, like last Tuesday afternoon (10-09-07).
We have to lower the power on every station, TV and FM, substantially, when people are climbing the towers. But, that generally is only for a few hours, usually in the daytime, and very infrequently.

But, if you are losing many stations when it rains, you probably are about at the limit of your antenna's abilities.

KSL-DT is currently operating at 25% power, due to a bad power supply. The new transmitter (all $500K of it) is on site, and will be installed over the next couple of weeks.

The bad news is, the old transmitter has to be completely removed first. So, a low-power transmitter (similar to what FOX13 was originally using) is going on-line starting Friday. It will probably be that way for about 10 days or so.

We have notified the translator guys....AFAIK, Lewis Peak, which feeds the north-east part of the state, is the only site that has trouble receiving us in bad weather. So, we may have trouble with that area during the low-power operation. We (several stations) have a microwave link under construction to feed Lewis, but we may have to "expedite" that (microwave) install, if we can't get their reception cleaned up.

kenglish · 10-17-07, 10:22 AM

Hey, Reverend Andy...

We gotta build one of these:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...cs/vehicle.jpg

like the UK's "FCC" has. Oughta be great for camping. And, we can call it a "business trip"!

Sharkzilla · 10-17-07, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemikeb

Sharkzilla: Currently, everything in HD from the SLC transmitter farm is on UHF. In 2009, Fox 13 HD will go to VHF from there (if you would pick up signals from there -- I've never been even near there), but a Channel Master 4228 or 4221 UHF bowtie would work fine for 13 then, even in some attics. I'm not sure if any translators are on / will go to VHF.

Thanks for the info mikemikeb and others. It's good to know there are others out there who can help me get this stuff up and running. I get some stations through cable via the tuner on my tv, but they are all mapped incorrectly since I am just getting those that they are broadcasting "in the clear". The quality is incredible though. I like the PBS stuff the most I think.

airiox · 10-17-07, 11:19 PM

Ah, thats a bit disappointing that it will be a while before I get to watch KSL again, but hopefully it will be more reliable in the future

. Thanks for the update though Ken.

And unfortunately living in Highland, technically according to antennaweb.org I would have to be 2,000 feet higher to even receive signals according to their algorithms. I have a 10 foot antenna which is the second most powerful that can stand up against the extremely windy conditions in my area. I bought a cheaper one from radioshack and the wind tore it apart in less than a month. Its just a strange bit of fate that I even get HDTV as clear as I do.

It's probably just something I'll have to live with, fortunately for me, we live in a desert.

keanen · 10-19-07, 05:56 PM

We just moved to Morgan from the Ogden area and I'm not picking any digital channels up (and it looks like the analog channels are being translated because they are on different channels - or whatever the technical term for that is

). Are we just in a dead spot or is there really no HDTV OTA in Morgan ? If not, are there any plans?

Thanks!

airiox · 10-19-07, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keanen

We just moved to Morgan from the Ogden area and I'm not picking any digital channels up (and it looks like the analog channels are being translated because they are on different channels - or whatever the technical term for that is

). Are we just in a dead spot or is there really no HDTV OTA in Morgan ? If not, are there any plans?

Thanks!

http://antennaweb.org

It's fairly accurate, but its estimates are conservative. So it may be possible, but just doing a zip code search for morgan, not knowing your exact location, even when I raised the height up 2500 feet, no digital stations show up. But I'm not an expert on where the digital translator stations are located.

mikemikeb · 10-20-07, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keanen

We just moved to Morgan from the Ogden area and I'm not picking any digital channels up (and it looks like the analog channels are being translated because they are on different channels - or whatever the technical term for that is

). Are we just in a dead spot or is there really no HDTV OTA in Morgan ? If not, are there any plans?

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by airiox

http://antennaweb.org

Actually, tvfool.com's TV Signal Locator service is better than Antennaweb.

10-13-07, 04:19 PM	#2371 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	I think it has a lot to do with feeding translator and Cable systems. I remember the "standards" calling for making the "-1" channel the HD feed, but that got sidetracked (by KSL and others) when we found that STBs would always default back to the -1 subchannel, and we'd get the wrong signal on the air at translator sites and Cable headends. Now, we have some more-stable receivers, so it doesn't happen so often. __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-14-07, 09:40 AM	#2373 \| Link
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	Right now, the translators and smaller Cable companies are all using the OTA HD feed, and taking a center-cut "crop", AFAIK. We send Comcast a direct fiber-optic feed of HD, WeatherPlus, and analog. We send an analog feed, via fiber, to DirecTV and DISH Network, and they take OTA for HD. We suspect we will continue to feed the analog 4:3 signals to all three providers for the foreseeable future, since Cable is required to provide an analog Local TV service for three years beyond the "analog OTA switchover". I have not heard any plans from satellite for changing their locals' services to SDTV customers...that would require a huge investment in new receivers and dishes. __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-15-07, 09:28 AM	#2376 \| Link
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	Hey! Shhhhh! You're not supposed to notice that. __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-15-07, 05:56 PM	#2378 \| Link
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	We are using the BTS/Philips LDK10 and 10P studio and hand-held cameras for in-studio use (all 480i 16:9). Next years' budget includes new studio cameras, camera pedestals, switcher, monitoring gear, and up/down/side-conversion equipment, to do 1080i origination from the studios. Field acquisition will probably go HD the following year. When we built the DTV transmission facilities in 1999, we also converted all of our studio production and field production to 16:9 SDTV capability. BTW, one of our Master Control ops has DISH Network HD, and she says that none of our signal (network or otherwise) looks like real HDTV to her. __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-16-07, 04:03 AM	#2380 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
g35driver New Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 7	Bump for UT!!!!! __________________ Looking for a LCD TV now

10-13-07, 06:38 PM	#2372 \| Link
TheOtherOne Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 177	So how do channels 2, 4 and 5 manage to get an SD feed to translators and cable companies? Are they just using the analog signal and if so does that mean when analog turns off we'll have to deal with SD digital feeds from them too?

10-14-07, 10:45 AM	#2374 \| Link
cwood AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Southern Utah, USA Posts: 1,549	A question for Ken English and perhaps it's been asked in past posts. I've only recently been able to watch KSL in HD over DISH. The studio HD looks distinctly poorer in quality than NBC network studio HD. KSL HD looks more like upconverted SD even with composite video artifacts such as an obvious artifact that looks like a chroma/luminance error. What's the deal? What type/whose brand of studio cameras is KSL using? Thanks.

10-15-07, 04:13 PM	#2377 \| Link
Scotty Rig Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17	For all those in Cache Valley waiting for KJZZ broadcasts in digital, here is the response I received from Mel Parkes who is the Broadcast Engineer for KJZZ: Thank you for the email and interest regarding the KJZZ TV Translator on Mt Pisgah. At present we do not have equipment at KJZZ to actually produce a HD product, but our plans are to do that in the future. Our present HD Transmitter uses our Analog signal and sends it out in SD to all the viewers who are able to receive it. This SD signal from our HD TV Transmitter is what we receive at the Mt Pisgah site for our translator and we convert it back to analog for the viewers in Cache County. We do have plans in the future to go all Digital (SD) and a t a date yet to be determined our products will be in HD. I agree with you that the SD and HD format are far superior to the analog, but for the time being we are trying to accommodate the greatest number of viewers with the resources we have available. As we move in the direction of HD Cache County is one of our highest priorities outside of the Wasatch Front.

10-16-07, 11:15 AM	#2382 \| Link
Scotty Rig Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 17	Ken, Does KSL have any plans to multicast any other channels ota in the near future?

10-16-07, 05:08 PM	#2384 \| Link
utfire New Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Roosevelt Utah Posts: 2	Duchesne County HDTV Hey all, just wanted to jump on and let you know we now have Tabby Mountain and Duchesne City HDTV channels up and running. Tabby has KUTV, KTVX, KSL, FOX, KJZZ, KUED, KBYU and WB on the air. Duchesne has KUTV, KTVX, KSL, KUED and FOX on the air. And just for additional info, Vernal has Blue Mountain with Channels; KUTV, KTVX, KSL, FOX, KJZZ, KUED, KBYU on the air. Lets hope the weather holds out so I can get my last two sites up and running! Terry Duchesne and Uinta County TV

10-16-07, 07:42 PM	#2385 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	I just gave the info to the News producer. She may have them mention it on the next show...."Attention, Eastern Utah viewers: Run a quick scan on your new TV set, and you can be watching us in HDTV before the next commercial!" __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-16-07, 10:00 PM	#2386 \| Link
utfire New Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Roosevelt Utah Posts: 2	Thanks Ken, believe it or not we have a number of people watching in HD! Really incredible stuff, we've been very happy!!! __________________ Terry Northeastern Utah "Translator Guy"

10-16-07, 10:10 PM	#2388 \| Link
andycarleton So Confused Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Taylorsville, UT Posts: 9	Thanks Terry, I'm gonna haul my Hisense tuner up to Tabby next time I go and see what I get. __________________ Andy http://www.starfishtv.org

10-16-07, 11:55 PM	#2389 \| Link
airiox Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 19	Anyone know why when it rains hard virtually all of the HD signals get knocked out? At least that is the case here in Highland. Also Ken, 5 has been out for about a week now, still waiting on that new transmitter?

10-17-07, 12:19 AM	#2390 \| Link
Sharkzilla New Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 8	I'm glad to find a thread for the Utah HD'ers! I'm new to the HD world and live in Orem. I'm going to read through a few pages tonight and see if I can get things up and running. The rabbit ears aren't working for me, so I'm going with a rooftop antenna this week. Everything HD is broadcast in UHF, correct?

10-17-07, 01:07 AM	#2391 \| Link
mikemikeb AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: DC Area Posts: 1,834	Sharkzilla: Currently, everything in HD from the SLC transmitter farm is on UHF. In 2009, Fox 13 HD will go to VHF from there (if you would pick up signals from there -- I've never been even near there), but a Channel Master 4228 or 4221 UHF bowtie would work fine for 13 then, even in some attics. I'm not sure if any translators are on / will go to VHF.

10-17-07, 09:49 AM	#2392 \| Link
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	Two LD stations: 3ABN (currently on 26) will go to channel 8, staying on Foothill Drive, and Telemundo's KULX-LP (licensed to Ogden) will move to Little Farnsworth on channel 10. I wouldn't expect a UHF to do well on those, though. My experience with using a UHF antenna on high-band VHF is, the patterns are different....it's lobe for channel 9 (for instance) is about 30 degrees off axis. 13 might be OK, due to strength alone, but could be tough in a bad multi-path area. We'll just have to see. We need to import some combo HB and UHF antennas . __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-17-07, 09:59 AM	#2393 \| Link
BeamMeUpScotty New Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 4	Can anyone recommend specific preamp/amp hardware for OTA on-the-fuzzy-edge-of-broadcast-range signal boosting? I'm in south Payson, and most of the time I get all DTV channels nice and clear -- oh, unless there's a drop of water in the sky, then the channels start disappearing. First KUTV (and I really like The Unit), then KSTU, then all the rest. Question two: What about real southern Utah county (Santaquin)? Any hope for those guys getting OTA DTV?

10-17-07, 10:22 AM	#2395 \| Link
kenglish AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA Posts: 3,847	Hey, Reverend Andy... We gotta build one of these: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...cs/vehicle.jpg like the UK's "FCC" has. Oughta be great for camping. And, we can call it a "business trip"! __________________ Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT. "Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"

10-17-07, 11:19 PM	#2397 \| Link
airiox Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 19	Ah, thats a bit disappointing that it will be a while before I get to watch KSL again, but hopefully it will be more reliable in the future . Thanks for the update though Ken. And unfortunately living in Highland, technically according to antennaweb.org I would have to be 2,000 feet higher to even receive signals according to their algorithms. I have a 10 foot antenna which is the second most powerful that can stand up against the extremely windy conditions in my area. I bought a cheaper one from radioshack and the wind tore it apart in less than a month. Its just a strange bit of fate that I even get HDTV as clear as I do. It's probably just something I'll have to live with, fortunately for me, we live in a desert.

10-19-07, 05:56 PM	#2398 \| Link
keanen New Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2	We just moved to Morgan from the Ogden area and I'm not picking any digital channels up (and it looks like the analog channels are being translated because they are on different channels - or whatever the technical term for that is ). Are we just in a dead spot or is there really no HDTV OTA in Morgan ? If not, are there any plans? Thanks!