Bose Response on Frequency

[vhato]

I am planning a surround system and before I did my research I was planning on the Bose 191's. This site has since guided me to Triad or Paradigm Speakers. Anyway, before this, I sent an E-mail to Bose asking about the Frequency Response of the Bose 191's so I could plan my system. I didn't want HUGE holes in the frequency range like their Accoustimas System and other Home Theater in a Box solutions.

After several forgotten weeks I received this reply from Bose reguarding their opinion on Frequency Response. I think you might find it amusing.

Bose does not publish frequency specifications. The reason for this is
that we believe that such statistics do not add very much to an
understanding of an audio product's acoustic characteristics and, even worse,
can be misleading. Audio manufacturers make these measurements
independent of industry standards, and in varying conditions. Additionally, a
single statistic is not a reliable measurement of a product's
performance. One could, for instance, find a very expensive system with exactly
the same specifications as a much less expensive system. On paper, the
two would appear identical. The difference in performance, however,
would be significant. A better approach, we feel, is to listen to the
product.


Thank you for contacting Bose Corporation.

So I guess with Bose, GAPS in the listening range are Factory Guaranteed, and they stand behind it.

[jasontkennedy]

People slam bose a lot. So do I for that matter. However, I completely agreee with thier reply

[JohnR_IN_LA]

I dont, I completely disagree.

Frequency measurements from companies that have a reputation for reasonable accuracy can be a helpful statistic. For example, If a company like Paradigm claims their little bookshelf goes down to 50hz, you can take it to faith that little speaker is gonna have some bass.

and it can be VERY helpful when comparing products within one manufacturer's lineup.


Also, there are independent industry tests, Bose just avoids them like the plague...

[DMF]

An opinion is an opinion, but the note also contains one incorrect statement, and at least one logical fallacy.

1) Frequency response measurement isn't a free-for-all. There is an accepted way to measure response. Granted that it isn't easy to translate measurements into in-room performance, but they're saying that there's no good way to compare measurements. That's a lie.

2) That the more expensive system will sound better than the less expensive system with identical specification. That's what they (and the boutique cable sellers) would *like* you to believe, but it ain't necessarily so. There's no necessary correspondence between price and performance. That's a self-serving oversight.

This missive encapsulates why people despise Bose and other peddlers of snake-oil.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Yea and who said people are using a "a single statistic <to measure> a product's performance" ???

When you buy a car, you want to know the gas mileage. That is not the only specc you are looking at though.

[Gaius Caligula]

Bose does not publish frequency specifications. The reason for this is
that we believe that such statistics do not add very much to an
understanding of an audio product's acoustic characteristics and, even worse,
can be misleading. Audio manufacturers make these measurements
independent of industry standards, and in varying conditions. Additionally, a
single statistic is not a reliable measurement of a product's
performance. One could, for instance, find a very expensive system with exactly
the same specifications as a much less expensive system. On paper, the
two would appear identical. The difference in performance, however,
would be significant. A better approach, we feel, is to listen to the
product.


Thank you for contacting Bose Corporation.

LOL.

[Roman74]

Now, why don't they publish other specs (ohms, sensitivity, power ratings and crossover points)?

[M NEWMAN]

Originally posted by Roman74
Now, why don't they publish other specs (ohms, sensitivity, power ratings...

Because their package works as a system, so these factors aren't an issue. (cubes go directly to bass module, not receiver, for example)

Originally posted by Roman74
....and crossover points)?

Because the people who buy these systems wouldn't know a crossover from a valve spring out of an engine head - it's irrelevent. The educated buyer who knows about these things (generally) wouldn't even consider Bose (although, like everything else, there are exceptions).

[Roman74]

I know that the Lifestyle system cubes go directly to the bass module, but what about the stereo speakers and center channel (not part of a set)? I agree that most educated buyers choose other brands.

[westrock]

Originally posted by M NEWMAN
....wouldn't know a crossover from a valve spring out of an engine head - it's irrelevent. .

Enough to know they must cost a fortune, I paid almost a grand to get my muffler springs replaced

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Bose knows that if they did publish their specs, they would be in a world of hurt. For what they charge, you can definately do a lot better.

[lexa695]

Originally posted by YeuEmMaiMai
Bose knows that if they did publish their specs, they would be in a world of hurt. For what they charge, you can definately do a lot better.

I keep reading this from other people and I have to keep asking myself, where are these sat systems that *sound* better than bose for less money? I just went out this weekend to look for some outdoor speakers and I was hoping to find the new Rocket outdoor speakers (I guess these are internet only) so I went to two high end HT stores (Harvey and Audio Breakthroughs) and while I was there, I listened to these really small Paradgim sats almost identical to Bose, with an SVS sub. It sounded good and was also about $2500 for 7 sats and the sub. I also listened to ascends small speakers (not really sats, but they were small) and Klipsch. The only ones that were cheaper than Bose were the Klipsch, but they were still $800 and they didn't really blow me away. The Ascends were also in the $1500 range with a Velodyne. So I ask. Where are these cheaper than Bose sat speakers set ups that sound so good for less money?
Disclaimer
This is not comendation of Bose. I am not arguing about the materials they use or the specs on the speakers as compared to others. I am just asking what small sat speaker set ups are cheaper and sound better?

BTW, I ended up buying Klipsch KHO-7's for the front of the house and 4 Yamaha outdoor speakers for the back. Best buy was remodleing their store and I got them for 60% off

[mike_the_man]

I sent a similar email to Bose last year asking about specs. I got the exact same reply that you did. It sounds like they have a standard answer all ready for this sort of question. You think they get this sort of question often?

[vhato]

Originally posted by lexa695
I keep reading this from other people and I have to keep asking myself, where are these sat systems that *sound* better than bose for less money?

I have been here for a little while and read all the blasts at Bose and I read you can get MORE for the same money as Bose and I have read you can get equal for less. I set off on a search for these speakers and discovered:

1. Bose doesn't sound as good as I thought
2. Everything I have heard costs more and sounds better
3. AVSForum.com has educated me passed my financial means

I would love to go back to the days when I was stupid and richer. When the upgrade from VHS to DVD via Composite thrilled me with awesome picture quality. When Surround Sound only needed cheap throw away speakers from a clock radio. When things such as Macro Blocking, Edge Enhancement and White Crush were terms that didn't mean a thing.......

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Originally posted by lexa695
I keep reading this from other people and I have to keep asking myself, where are these sat systems that *sound* better than bose for less money? I just went out this weekend to look for some outdoor speakers and I was hoping to find the new Rocket outdoor speakers (I guess these are internet only) so I went to two high end HT stores (Harvey and Audio Breakthroughs) and while I was there, I listened to these really small Paradgim sats almost identical to Bose, with an SVS sub. It sounded good and was also about $2500 for 7 sats and the sub. I also listened to ascends small speakers (not really sats, but they were small) and Klipsch. The only ones that were cheaper than Bose were the Klipsch, but they were still $800 and they didn't really blow me away. The Ascends were also in the $1500 range with a Velodyne. So I ask. Where are these cheaper than Bose sat speakers set ups that sound so good for less money?

Disclaimer
This is not comendation of Bose. I am not arguing about the materials they use or the specs on the speakers as compared to others. I am just asking what small sat speaker set ups are cheaper and sound better?

BTW, I ended up buying Klipsch KHO-7's for the front of the house and 4 Yamaha outdoor speakers for the back. Best buy was remodleing their store and I got them for 60% off

What sounds better? Personally the smallest speakers I would use are of Bookself size that that simply has to do with the laws of physics.

OK here is my setup and I can guarantee that it will put the smack down on the bose system for $1400 less

Yamaha HTR-5635
5 NS-6490 3 way acoustic suspension speakers with 8" 4" 1" drivers
2 YST SW-215s (8" subs)

Total cost:

receiver $155 delivered
6 speakers $300 delivered (you can only get them in pairs)
2 subs $220 out the door at U.E.

So lets see here total cost $675 for a system that sounds a whole lot better and comes from a manufacturer that is KNOWN to build quality stuff.

Sure you can go with the cubes but you are definately not getting anywhere near quality sound reproduction. Heck why not go to Target and buy Sony's $199 system as it uses the same drivers as the BOSE system and cost a lot less and you get a better sub (8" versus 2 or 3 5" drivers in a box)

[JeffD2.]

Originally posted by lexa695
I keep reading this from other people and I have to keep asking myself, where are these sat systems that *sound* better than bose for less money?

Oh no, not again.

Post a link of one positive review from someone who DOESN'T STAND TO MAKE BUCK from selling or distributing a Bose product.

I'll take my Ascend Acoustics sats and SVS over Bose hands down for about the price of an Acoustimass 10 system. Please explain how a "bass module" that doesn't go below 50hz is supposed to "make you feel" the bass. Two 5¼" so called "woofers" just can't do it. I have sound tested Bose before, cheaper systems simply have more dynamic range.

My last post on this thread, although I always find these Bose threads very entertaining just for the absurdity.

[Alimentall]

That's like selling a sportscar that does 0-60 in 12 seconds, has a skidpad of .75, goes from 60-0 in 300ft and then saying "you have to drive the car, we don't believe that specifications mean anything". Uh-huh.

[Tom_Bombadil]

Bose knows that at least 95% of the buyers of HT systems don't know anything about the specifications. Given how successful their business model is, who can fault them?

Just consider yourself one of the fortunate few who know what they are doing, who cares about the accuracy of your system, and that you know enough to not buy Bose.

I'm sure all of us buy some products that we wouldn't if we were better versed on them.

[blkwrxwgn]

People just love to be cool and bash bose over and over.

Yes bose is horrible for us cool audiophiles but they are correct in what they are saying.

Who that owns bose products knows what, how are why they need to see a frequency response for a speaker???? NONE

They are right though. Who cares what they can show you when they can make a graph do whatever they want it to do with room characteristics or changes and with making changes to the speaker they are measuring.

5 people could measure a speaker and all 5 would have different readings. YEAH!!!!! Now that's a standard to trust!!!

[BobL]

There are many speakers out there that cost less than Bose. Are they better? That is for your ears to decide. Here is a link listing many of them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=439068

And here's a review that makes mention compared to Bose. Which is tough to find many reviewers do.

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...review_p1.html

Bob

[sc03979]

Just saw that the number of views on this thread was 666, just thought it was fitting.

[CenterForAnts]

Originally posted by lexa695
[b]I keep reading this from other people and I have to keep asking myself, where are these sat systems that *sound* better than bose for less money?

i dont think the poster said anything about sats. let's just play around with the price. take this as an example:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xTZO1IT...IB&search=bose

for $2,299 U.S. + shipping

...and in the other corner, Ascend 170s all around, with a 340c, either an HSU VTF-3 or SVS PB12-ISD, Samsung 841 dvd-player and the Pio 1015, that will BLOW away (understated) that piece of crap bose system and still be under $2,299 U.S.

* you can replace the Ascends with Rocket ELTs all around and the Rocket system will kill that blose crap

[lexa695]

Originally posted by JeffD2.
Oh no, not again.

Post a link of one positive review from someone who DOESN'T STAND TO MAKE BUCK from selling or distributing a Bose product.

I'll take my Ascend Acoustics sats and SVS over Bose hands down for about the price of an Acoustimass 10 system. Please explain how a "bass module" that doesn't go below 50hz is supposed to "make you feel" the bass. Two 5¼" so called "woofers" just can't do it. I have sound tested Bose before, cheaper systems simply have more dynamic range.

My last post on this thread, although I always find these Bose threads very entertaining just for the absurdity.

Jeff, what did you pay for them? Was it less than $1000? Yes, your ascends are better. So is your sub, but how much did they cost? I really would like to know.

[lexa695]

Originally posted by CenterForAnts
i dont think the poster said anything about sats. let's just play around with the price. take this as an example:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-xTZO1IT...IB&search=bose

for $2,299 U.S. + shipping

...and in the other corner, Ascend 170s all around, with a 340c, either an HSU VTF-3 or SVS PB12-ISD, Samsung 841 dvd-player and the Pio 1015, that will BLOW away (understated) that piece of crap bose system and still be under $2,299 U.S.

* you can replace the Ascends with Rocket ELTs all around and the Rocket system will kill that blose crap

Your example is pretty bad. I don't consider a lifestyle system anything more than a HTIAB. Bose Lifestyle systems blow. I was refering to someone who would buy an AM10 for $1000 compared to (Fill in sat speakers and sub). Most people who buy a Bose sat system are going for a small unobtusive look for the room more than sound. Bigger speakers will sound better than a sat system in most cases. That is the trade off. I just have look recently and listened to some sat systems from the more internet respected companies. Yes I thought a bunch of them sounded better, but none were cheaper.

[Bikedorian]

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...htm200hts.html

Check the prices out yourself. But you can't compare Bose to Ascend and Hsu. One is meant for people who appreciate music and the other is meant for people who appreciate marketing. There are one heckofa lot more people who treasure marketing way over music. Our whole economy is based on the marketing concept. Dr. Bose caught on this from the get go.
I've owned Bose 901's in the past and now I own Ascend 340's. There is absolutely no comparison on sound or price. The Bose cost much, much more and the Ascend's are much, much more accurate.

David

[lexa695]

Originally posted by Bikedorian
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...htm200hts.html

Check the prices out yourself. But you can't compare Bose to Ascend and Hsu. One is meant for people who appreciate music and the other is meant for people who appreciate marketing. There are one heckofa lot more people who treasure marketing way over music. Our whole economy is based on the marketing concept. Dr. Bose caught on this from the get go.
I've owned Bose 901's in the past and now I own Ascend 340's. There is absolutely no comparison on sound or price. The Bose cost much, much more and the Ascend's are much, much more accurate.

David

I give up. No wonder you people hate Bose. Sure, lets compare a speaker that is about 5'X3"X4" to one that is 11" x 6.5" x 6.375". Wow, I'm stunned the bigger speaker sounds better. BTW, I totally agree the 901's are a rip off.

[M NEWMAN]

Originally posted by blkwrxwgn

5 people could measure a speaker and all 5 would have different readings. YEAH!!!!! Now that's a standard to trust!!!

Sorry, but this is a silly comment. Stick a Bose cube in an anechoic chamber, set up the calibrated mic, and have 5 different people come in and run a frequency sweep from 20hz to 20Khz and all 5 will get the exact same result. To confuse proper testing format with ineptitude is foolish at best.

That said, I will agree that there are some cheapo manufacturers out there that flat out lie, but not respectable makes - they might "fudge" just a bit, but their reputations and vision of brand loyalty is too darned important to risk losing market share over a stupid lie.

[Jake Sm]

Frequency measurements from companies that have a reputation for reasonable accuracy can be a helpful statistic.

agreed

Audio manufacturers make these measurements independent of industry standards, and in varying conditions

also, sometimes true

That the more expensive system will sound better than the less expensive system with identical specification. That's what they (and the boutique cable sellers) would *like* you to believe, but it ain't necessarily so

true, but I have listened to spekers with identical printed specs and they have sounded dramatically differant.

[Bigus]

Of course, because printed specs (the one typically mentioned for speakers... FR, and perhaps some distortion number if you are lucky) is not enough to completely define the sound of the speaker. But it does contribute to the sound, and if you accurately know the FR, then you know more about the performance of the speaker than you would without it.

And while it is true that two speakers with identical FR may sound drastically different, it is extremely unlikely that either of them, if that FR is really horrid, will sound "good." And that IMO is the main point.

[Tom Brennan]

Bose are OK, most of the speakers you guys like would sound just as bad to me as Bose.

Actually getting most of the sound from a single driver is a legit idea and has some definate virtues (and faults). There's an entire single-driver cult out there that would sniff at the plastic cone-tragic dome speakers favored by many here.