Samsung HLR Audio Lip Sync Thread

[nickavs]

This topic is found in all of the HLR threads so I figured I'd start it's own.

If you have lip sync problems, lets try and figure them out there. Post your setup and results for others to see!

[aircasper]

the audio lag is apparent only with a 480i signal for me. the way i see this is if i split the incoming cable signal, with one cable going directly into the hlr5067's tuner, and the other going into the motorola 6412 box, which then sends audio to my onkyo receiver using optical out and video to the tv using component video cables.

if i turn on the audio on my receiver (which gets its signal from the motorola 6412), but tune the tv to the antenna input, i can see the audio/video lag, and actually hear the audio lag between my home theater speakers (which are being fed from the receiver) and the tv's speakers (which are being fed the direct cable signal). this only occurs on 480i signals/channels. if i switch to 720p/1080i, the audio/video lag goes away and no more echo between the home theater and tv speakers. haven't tried this out on 480p, but i doubt there will be any noticeable lag there. just for 480i. hope that helps.

[UCSB]

Originally Posted by aircasper

the audio lag is apparent only with a 480i signal for me. the way i see this is if i split the incoming cable signal, with one cable going directly into the hlr5067's tuner, and the other going into the motorola 6412 box, which then sends audio to my onkyo receiver using optical out and video to the tv using component video cables.

if i turn on the audio on my receiver (which gets its signal from the motorola 6412), but tune the tv to the antenna input, i can see the audio/video lag, and actually hear the audio lag between my home theater speakers (which are being fed from the receiver) and the tv's speakers (which are being fed the direct cable signal). this only occurs on 480i signals/channels. if i switch to 720p/1080i, the audio/video lag goes away and no more echo between the home theater and tv speakers. haven't tried this out on 480p, but i doubt there will be any noticeable lag there. just for 480i. hope that helps.

aircasper ... sorry, but your test configuration is completely invalid. It is not reasonable to expect your internal tuner to stay in sync with an external HD DVR.

Valid test configurations would be either of these two:

1. Supplying both audio (to receiver) and video (to HDTV) from the Motorola 6412.
2. Supplying video from internal tuner and audio via the optical out on the HDTV to the receiver.

[twinmax04]

I just received my HLR-5667W on Tuesday And I must say I am in Love with it the PQ is Amazing.

My config is as follows.
1. Cable box Straight to the TV via component 1(might change it later to go straight into my SA-XR70S and then to the HLR-5667W) to see if I get any LIP SYNC issues.
2. DVD (S97S) HDMI - SA-XR70S HDMI - SA-XR70S HDMI(out) - HLR-5667W HDMI
3. XBOX to component 2
I have not noticed any LIP SYNC issues at all.

[nickavs]

I think the lip sync issues are only when you have a home theater system in the mix. Mine has a delay from the Onkyo system and the TV sound (when I have audio going to both).

[sl1200mk2]

Sorry guys, I'm confused on this. I'm about to take delivery on my 5067 this Saturday, so I want to test for this as well...

Where is the delay? On the TV or the audio receiver? Meaning, which unit is heard first? I'm assuming the audio receiver? So the TV audio is the feed that's lagging, correct?

It seems to make sense since people are talking about delay settings on the audio receiver, but I want to make sure. I might need to get a receiver that allows delay on the inputs (I need to upgrade anyway).

Thanks for the clarification.

- Wayne

[MikeAlletto]

Running audio to both a receiver and a tv at the same time and saying "there is an audible echo" is not a valid test. Of course there is going to be an echo. You need to run it from source to one location and video to one location THEN see if its out of sync.

Examples:

Cable box to tv via component. Cable box to reciever with optical. Bet you there will be delay.

Cable box to receiver via component. Cable box to receiver with optical. Receiver to tv with component. People have responded there is no delay.

Cable box to tv via hdmi. No delay.

Cable box to tv via hdmi. Tv to receiver with optical. No delay but only 2 channel sound.

Cable box to tv via hdmi. Cable box to receiver with optical. Will be delay.

[millerwill]

Originally Posted by MikeAlletto

Cable box to tv via hdmi. Cable box to receiver with optical. Will be delay.

This is really disturbing to hear since this arrangement [video directly from the STB to the tv digitally (HDMI), and audio directly from the STB to the AVR digitally (optical)] is the 'preferred' one that is supposed to provide the highest quality (and also provide DD 5.1 etc.). Can others confirm that this arrangement does indeed have lip sync problems? Is it a source problem?

[dpristin]

Hi everybody,

my 5067 should be delivered tomorrow so I need to schedule a hook-up with Comcast. I was planning to use a cable card but there are conflicting reports about HLR’s ability to output Dolby Digital 5.1 signal through the digital audio out – is that true? Has anybody tried it and can confirm or refute this claim?

Regards,
Dmitry.

[EEBuckeye]

I have read other peoples reports stating they use component from the cable box to the tv and digital output from the cable box to the home theater without sync problems.

[millerwill]

Originally Posted by EEBuckeye

I have read other peoples reports stating they use component from the cable box to the tv and digital output from the cable box to the home theater without sync problems.

But having to use component for the video connection detracts from the supposedly superior 'all digital pathway' that has been touted so much. Seems to be self-defeating.

[MikeAlletto]

But having to use component for the video connection detracts from the supposedly superior 'all digital pathway' that has been touted so much. Seems to be self-defeating.

There have been posts that HDMI doesn't provide any higher quality over component.

[cpb_mille]

I haven't heard too much on DVDplayer issues. I hope there are none because that may be my primary source. Tomorrow the testing begins. This is the hookup I intend to use:

DVD video to TV - component (no hdmi or dvi)
DVD audio to receiver - rca (receiver doesn't have optical in, dvd has output)

alternate
- DVD video and audio to TV - TVaudio out to receiver (loses 5.1 ?)

[UCSB]

Originally Posted by nickavs

I think the lip sync issues are only when you have a home theater system in the mix. Mine has a delay from the Onkyo system and the TV sound (when I have audio going to both).

I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to run audio to your TV and receiver at the same time and expect them to maintain sync. It just indicates that the TV is delaying the audio some small amount (1/2 frame, 1 frame, etc.) to establish an improved sync between picture and sound. The real issue is: with only your receiver audio on, do you percieve a lip sync issue? If so, how severe is it and on what types of sources and material?

[Cush1978]

I guess this all but confirms lag on the HLR series with 480i material.

Cush

[UCSB]

Originally Posted by Cush1978

I guess this all but confirms lag on the HLR series with 480i material.

Cush

Which of the posts confirms a Lip Sync issue?

[aircasper]

Originally Posted by UCSB

aircasper ... sorry, but your test configuration is completely invalid. It is not reasonable to expect your internal tuner to stay in sync with an external HD DVR.

Valid test configurations would be either of these two:

1. Supplying both audio (to receiver) and video (to HDTV) from the Motorola 6412.
2. Supplying video from internal tuner and audio via the optical out on the HDTV to the receiver.

I agree my setup is not the ideal setup for testing for lag when going through a dvr (the only reason why I have it set up this way is because the motorola box is horrible at passing SD channels, as others have pointed out), but my point is that the lag/echo only showed up with a 480i signal. It may not be reasonable to expect the internal tuner to synch with the motorola 6412, but it does exactly that for hdtv signals (no discernible audio echo), but not with 480i. Just a coincidence? Maybe, but it seems to at least indicate there is still a lag issue with 480i, which as others point out goes away if you run both the audio and video through the tv since samsung apparently delays the audio to match the delay in processing time for a 480i signal. Since most of what I watch is HDTV anyways, it's not a very big issue for me. Anyways, just my 2 cents.

[aircasper]

Originally Posted by EEBuckeye

I have read other peoples reports stating they use component from the cable box to the tv and digital output from the cable box to the home theater without sync problems.

That's how I have it set up and don't notice any visible lag, at least with hdtv programming. On my previous set up with a Toshiba 46hm84, I would notice occasional lag with SD programming, but it seemed to depend on the source more than anything else. I expect that same would be true with the Sammy, but I'll have to wait and see.

[UCSB]

Originally Posted by aircasper

I agree my setup is not the ideal setup for testing for lag when going through a dvr (the only reason why I have it set up this way is because the motorola box is horrible at passing SD channels, as others have pointed out), but my point is that the lag/echo only showed up with a 480i signal. It may not be reasonable to expect the internal tuner to synch with the motorola 6412, but it does exactly that for hdtv signals, but not with 480i. Just a coincidence? Maybe, but it seems to at least indicate there is still a lag issue with 480i, which as others point out goes away if you run both the audio and video through the tv since samsung apparently delays the audio to match the delay in processing time for a 480i signal. Since most of what I watch is HDTV anyways, it's not a very big issue for me. Anyways, just my 2 cents.

I don't think we can form any opinion about 480i based on this test. 480i on the Motorola DVR is analog and will have to be encoded before for it can be stored on the DVR, but HD is digital and can just be stored digitally.

To test lip sync it is critical that people have their equipment setup correctly ... and then it depends on whether they perceive a lip sync issue while watching the TV. If audio is routed to a receiver, all HDTV's will introduce some amount of video processing delay. The issue is whether it is perceivable.

[aircasper]

Originally Posted by UCSB

I don't think we can form any opinion about 480i based on this test. 480i on the Motorola DVR is analog and will have to be encoded before for it can be stored on the DVR, but HD is digital and can just be stored digitally.

To test lip sync it is critical that people have their equipment setup correctly ... and then it depends on whether they perceive a lip sync issue while watching the TV. If audio is routed to a receiver, all HDTV's will introduce some amount of video processing delay. The issue is whether it is perceivable.

lol, alright, i won't argue the point any more. take my test for what it's worth, which may be nothing. i get the sense that people are really hoping that there isn't any lag on these new sets. i didn't see any audio/video lag when watching the 2-hour season finale for lost last night, but that was an hd signal. i'll see if i can perceive any lag when watching some 480i shows over the weekend. i guess i'll "force" myself to watch some tv.

[mwilli]

Originally Posted by MikeAlletto

Running audio to both a receiver and a tv at the same time and saying "there is an audible echo" is not a valid test. Of course there is going to be an echo. You need to run it from source to one location and video to one location THEN see if its out of sync.

Examples:

Cable box to tv via component. Cable box to reciever with optical. Bet you there will be delay.

Cable box to receiver via component. Cable box to receiver with optical. Receiver to tv with component. People have responded there is no delay.

Cable box to tv via hdmi. No delay.

Cable box to tv via hdmi. Tv to receiver with optical. No delay but only 2 channel sound.

Cable box to tv via hdmi. Cable box to receiver with optical. Will be delay.

I am running my Directv box to my 5667w through HDMI, I am also running TV audio to my Sony receiver with Optical and I have absolutely no lipsync issues with either the regular SD programming, HD programming, DVD or Xbox. I spent several hours last night testing specifc games such as Golf, Halo and racing games looking for any lag and it wasn't apparent.

I am glad this isn't a global thing but maybe it's a specific combonation of certain components that cause this.

[nickavs]

Originally Posted by mwilli

I am running my Directv box to my 5667w through HDMI, I am also running TV audio to my Sony receiver with Optical and I have absolutely no lipsync issues with either the regular SD programming, HD programming, DVD or Xbox. I spent several hours last night testing specifc games such as Golf, Halo and racing games looking for any lag and it wasn't apparent.

I am glad this isn't a global thing but maybe it's a specific combonation of certain components that cause this.

So is this true??

Originally Posted by MikeAlletto

Cable box to tv via hdmi. Tv to receiver with optical. No delay but only 2 channel sound.

I'd like more then 2 channel audio...

[MikeAlletto]

I am running my Directv box to my 5667w through HDMI, I am also running TV audio to my Sony receiver with Optical and I have absolutely no lipsync issues with either the regular SD programming, HD programming, DVD or Xbox. I spent several hours last night testing specifc games such as Golf, Halo and racing games looking for any lag and it wasn't apparent.

Hmm...maybe we need to start making a list of source models and connections that cause lag and those that don't.

[shanec]

I just got my HLR-5667 from TVA yesterday. This first thing I did was plug in coax from my external OTA antenna. I got it setup just in time to watch LOST on my local ABC's OTA HD broadcast.

LOST had MAJOR lip sync issues. The audio was 1-2 syllables behind the video. The local PBS HD OTA broadcast had no lip sync issues. CBS has very slight lip sync issues. Oddly enough, none of the SD OTA broadcasts showed lip sync isses.

Otherwise - WOW what a TV. LOST in HD looked simply amazing. SD looked like crap, as expected.

Now it would help me out a lot if I could figure out how to make the TV display what kind of signal is being input. I couldn't find a button that would make the TV tell me if it was receiving 480i, 480p, 720p, etc. Surely its there somewhere. Anyone? Anyone?

Later, I hooked up my shiny new (to me) Panasonic S97 DVD player (HDMI to the TV and TOSLINK from the player to AV receiver) and calibrated the "standard" video settings with Avia (ie: no service menu adjustments). Then I watched Fight Club on DVD. I don't recall how good the video in Fight Club is supposed to be. I found it a little grainy. I could also see the occasional dirt/scratch/blemish/whatever in the video - perhaps because his slick new DLP displays a lot of detail I could never see before.....or maybe that means Fight Club wasn't all that for video...I'll have to check the reviews of it. The colors were fantastic except the shadow detail - which is probably due to the lack of firmware upgrade on my Panasonic S97.

The issue with the shadow detail in Fight Club was that very dark areas didn't look as dark as they should and instead looked a bit patchy and reddish. Is this macroblocking? I hope so because the firmware upgrade that I need to put in that DVD player is supposed to cure that.

And back to the audio - there were absolutely no lip sync issues with the Fight Club DVD.

[mwilli]

[quote=nickavs]So is this true??



It's absolutely true, I was very worried I was going to have to deal with the lag since I am an avid gamer so i tested all of my configurations.

Samsung HLR5667W
DirecTV HD10-250 Tivo HD Tuner
Sony ES Receiver
Harmon Kardon DVD
Xbox

No lag anywhere.

[shanec]

Update:

(sorry to be a bit dis-org'd in this post and the previous one, but I do kind of rush doing this on my employer's time)

On Fight Club video...

So I read the video was supposed to be gritty or beat-up looking to go along with the theme of the movie. That describes the grain.

And perhaps I overstated the shadow detail problem. It was only in a handful of scenes. The whole movie is pretty dark and its not like it was a constant problem. Though I'd still like to hear if someone thinks this thing I'm seeing is what macroblocking is.

[mwilli]

Funny you mention Fight Club, that was the DVD that I choose to watch first to test my new TV on. I realized into it a bit that the DVD itself is very grainy and splotchy which is how it was designed. I then put in Gladiator to test another WOW what a difference. Outstanding picture.

Now if I could stop tweaking the contrast/bright/sharp settings I would be happy

[UCSB]

Originally Posted by shanec

Update:

(sorry to be a bit dis-org'd in this post and the previous one, but I do kind of rush doing this on my employer's time)

On Fight Club video...

So I read the video was supposed to be gritty or beat-up looking to go along with the theme of the movie. That describes the grain.

And perhaps I overstated the shadow detail problem. It was only in a handful of scenes. The whole movie is pretty dark and its not like it was a constant problem. Though I'd still like to hear if someone thinks this thing I'm seeing is what macroblocking is.

No lip sync on DVD, right?

[mwilli]

Originally Posted by UCSB

No lip sync on DVD, right?

None on either of them, I have some new DVD's to watch this weekend so I will update if I find any issues.

MY DVD to TV connection is component but they seem to be nice quality, they came with the Harmon Kardon player. I do use a Digital Coax cable from the DVD to to the receiver also.

[jensph]

Originally Posted by MikeAlletto

Cable box to tv via component. Cable box to reciever with optical. Bet you there will be delay.

I would take that bet. As I've stated in the owner's thread, there is no significant lag with this configuration.