"Official" Marantz 7400/7500/8400/8500 thread

[Fraoch]

"Official" is in quotation marks as I don't know what it takes to make a thread official.

In this thread, breakbeat46 asked:

As far as the HT EQ, has anyone noticed that it affects the LFE signal also? i just want to confirm if its just my ears or its the reciever.

That's a good question to start.

EDIT: Helpful links:

Marantz website

Marantz USA page on SR7400
Marantz SR7400 user manual

Marantz USA page on SR7500
Marantz SR7500 spec sheet
Marantz SR7500 user manual

Marantz USA page on SR8400
Marantz SR8400 user manual

Marantz USA page on SR8500
Marantz SR8500 spec sheet
Marantz SR8500 user manual

[Fraoch]

My question is regarding CSII Mono mode.

Obviously I don't use this mode much, but when it's required it's the only soundfield that directs mono sound to more than one speaker.

But what is it supposed to sound like? My 7400 just directs the same mono signal to all channels. Sounds pretty crappy...

The Denon receivers I used to have had a nice "mono movie" soundfield that would apply the same signal with a delay in the surrounds. Sounded very nice.

Is my 7400 implementing this mode properly? Is that what it's supposed to sound like (same signal, all channels)?

It's one of the few things I regret moving from Denon to Marantz, but I don't use the setting much.

[Fraoch]

breakbeat46, I tried tests for you tonight with my 7400. I flipped HT-EQ off and on and tried to listen for changes in bass. It was pretty hard, I flipped HT-EQ on and off 30 or 40 times to try to tell a difference.

On analog sources (bass produced by crossover only) I noticed no difference.

On Dolby Digital 5.1 sources (bass by crossover and LFE) I thought I heard a very slight bass reduction when HT-EQ was turned on. It was very slight though.

That's not to say there was no bass reduction - you're cutting an equalizer into the circuit. It will primarily affect treble, but it could affect other frequencies as well, if only slightly.

In fact what I may have heard was a very small overall volume reduction.

[hugabone]

I got my 8400 early this week and love the sound. My last system was a Krell Showcase pre pro /Sherbourn amp and the 8400 to me sounds better. Though its been a couple of years since I had the pre/pro, it did not sound like this. Iv only use it so far in a HT setup. I was just going to use the Sr8400 until I was ready to jump back into the highend department but Im going to hold off for awhile. I might even invest into the 8500 down the line.

The downside of this reciever is it doesnt display the menu in 480p. Also does anyone have any problems with setting up the speaker level using the internal pink noise. It is simply not loud enough for my radio shack spl meter to read it. Setting is 80/ slow response and C but cant even get a reading even if Im right up on the speaker.

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by hugabone

The downside of this reciever is it doesnt display the menu in 480p. Also does anyone have any problems with setting up the speaker level using the internal pink noise. It is simply not loud enough for my radio shack spl meter to read it. Setting is 80/ slow response and C but cant even get a reading even if Im right up on the speaker.

Did you raise the receiver main volume when measuring the test tone? It drops the sound by 10 dB so it won't blow your speakers or your eardrums. By sheer luck, mine was very close to reference. I started the tone in the L speaker and raised the volume until my meter read 75 dB. I noticed that my volume was at +1, so I lowered it to 0, adjusted the L speaker up 1 dB and then calibrated the rest. So it's calibrated to reference level, 85 dB at 0.

[Paradox-SJ]

Does anyone use the THX setting on the 8500?

What are the dis/advantages of using it? Especially if one isnt using THX cert speakers.

[Kapolei01]

Hi,
I recently won one of the SR-8400 receivers from Ubid and I have a 7.1 speaker setup. I'm using the receiver strictly as a pre-amp (with 2-channel & 5-channel amps). Anyway, I went into the speaker setup menu and configured the receiver for 7.1 (both surround speakers). As for as digital cable, I have both the digital & analog outputs from my cable box connected to the SR-8400. I have been able to successfully engage DPL-IIX when playing a DVD or digital cable channels but when switching to analog cable channels, I'm unable to engage multi-channel mode while using DPL-IIX or Circle Surround II 6.1. I've also gone into the menu and tried each of the receiver audio input modes (pg 26 of the manual, RH side) to >Digital Auto>Digital>Analog>. Still no DPL-IIX or Circle Surr-II multi-channel sound from analog (surround) channels. Am I missing something? I've researched both of these formats thoroughly and I understand how they work (I been reading A/V forums & magazines for 10 yrs now). I previously had an HK AVR-525 and Logic-7 was great for creating multichannel sound from analog sources. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

[kendenton]

Another happy uBid winner (upgraded from 7400, which I payed more for refurb'd!).

Anyone want to take a crack at explaining the LFE level menu choice? 0, -10 or off. What exactly does that do?

Thanks!

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by Kapolei01

I have been able to successfully engage DPL-IIX when playing a DVD or digital cable channels but when switching to analog cable channels, I'm unable to engage multi-channel mode while using DPL-IIX or Circle Surround II 6.1. I've also gone into the menu and tried each of the receiver audio input modes (pg 26 of the manual, RH side) to >Digital Auto>Digital>Analog>. Still no DPL-IIX or Circle Surr-II multi-channel sound from analog (surround) channels. Am I missing something? I've researched both of these formats thoroughly and I understand how they work (I been reading A/V forums & magazines for 10 yrs now). I previously had an HK AVR-525 and Logic-7 was great for creating multichannel sound from analog sources. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Do you mean you cannot select PLIIx or CSII with analog channels, or that you hear no sound from the surround speakers when in these modes with analog sources?

It's normal to hear very little with analog sources and PLIIx engaged. There isn't much separation even with Dolby Surround-encoded programs. But you should have a little sound from both the surround and rear speakers. Put your ear right up to the speaker, you should hear a faint copy of the front material, often sounding a little fuzzy or distorted.

Also, there are TWO ways to set the channel levels. One is through the speaker setup menu, but there's another way through the Surround Menu, screen 4. Each soundfield has its own customizeable adjustment. These adjustments are added or subtracted from the speaker setup levels to customize the channel levels for each soundfield. Make sure every soundfield is set to 0 in order to keep the channel level adjustments, or you could turn up the surrounds and rears to get more sound from them.

Actually I'm not entirely sure what this screen does. The manual doesn't explain, so I don't know if these adjustments are added/subtracted from the global levels or if they replace the global levels entirely. They do have an effect, my dealer had set some customizations here and things sounded strange until I set every soundfield the same (the same as my global settings). But now I'm thinking that rather than setting levels the same as my global settings, I should set everything to 0.

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by kendenton

Another happy uBid winner (upgraded from 7400, which I payed more for refurb'd!).

Anyone want to take a crack at explaining the LFE level menu choice? 0, -10 or off. What exactly does that do?

Thanks!

I left it at 0 and it sounds fine...

Were you having problems with it clipping the LFE preout?

[gprro1]

lfe sets the overall output of the lfe effects channel. I wish there was more adjustment options. If all your speakers are set to small, all the bass including lfe is sent through sub output, and can actualy overdrive or clip the sub out signal on some receivers and pre amps, regardless of actual volume setting. If all your speakers are set to small it is probably smart to set lfe to -10. With large front setting I'm not exactly shure, this is the way I'm setup, and have been using the 0 setting. We should find out if the 8400 or others, is capable of swinging a clean sub output signal with lfe set to 0, and all speakers set to small. I'm still trying to figure this out.

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by gprro1

We should find out if the 8400 or others, is capable of swinging a clean sub output signal with lfe set to 0, and all speakers set to small. I'm still trying to figure this out.

All my speakers are set to small...no troubles here with LFE at 0.

But then again I have a relatively poor sub.

[gprro1]

I'm guessing it's probably fine. I remember this being a problem during the first couple years dolby digital was new. It's also pretty hard hearing distortion at low frequencies so it might not be to apparent. I think -5 would be ideal( for me at least). Mine sounds pretty good too with 0 lfe setting, even though I bottomed the sub once, sub was set to +8 though. It's now at +2 and alls fine.

[gprro1]

Anyone's 8400 run a little warm after a movie at high volume. Mine's definately a little on the hot side, compared to my old school harmon kardon avr80. Sound great though.

Good idea on the "offical" marantz thread, I hope it keeps going.

[kendenton]

I'm running all speakers small with LFE 0 (I guess that's the default), and didn't have any problems. Just curious as to what it did, thanks. Doesn't run any warmer than my SR7400 did, but then again I'm powering everything at the moment with external amps. I may use the 8400 to do everything but the mains in the near future though.

[gregeas]

I also bought a uBid 8400.

Question: if I input a hi-def component video signal to the 8400, will it output a hi-def signal? I'd like to use the 8400 to switch between my DVD player and my hi-def cable box, but I don't want to downsample the 1080i signal.

[ekb]

Originally Posted by gregeas

Question: if I input a hi-def component video signal to the 8400, will it output a hi-def signal? I'd like to use the 8400 to switch between my DVD player and my hi-def cable box, but I don't want to downsample the 1080i signal.

Yes - HiDef in - HiDef out. Shouldn't have any noticable degradation.

Ed

[ekb]

Originally Posted by kendenton

Another happy uBid winner (upgraded from 7400, which I payed more for refurb'd!).

Anyone want to take a crack at explaining the LFE level menu choice? 0, -10 or off. What exactly does that do?

Thanks!

That has to do with DD movies vs music. DD is set up so that movie LFE plays 10 dB louder than the encoding. Music is meant to be flat and doesn't have that 10 dB "enhancement".

Ed

[Kapolei01]

Shortened quote from Fraoch: Do you mean you cannot select PLIIx or CSII with analog channels, or that you hear no sound from the surround speakers when in these modes with analog sources?
___________________________________________________

I can select PLIIx & CSII with analog channels but I don't hear any sound from any of the surround speakers. I know that they are generally silent unless some encoded material finds it's way to the surrounds but this is not the case in this situation. Also, the receiver display only shows the L/R speakers active. It's strange. As for the channel levels, I've run speaker tests to set the appropriate channel levels using a rat-shack SPL meter (I have a DVE disk but haven't used it on the Marantz yet). And yes, I actually went into the different surround menus to adjust the speaker levels for PLIIx & CSII separately. I've also been in both menus that set speaker levels. I double checked my analog out from my cable box into the receiver (tried TV audio input-only 2 channel sound, then DSS/VCR-2 audio input-only 2 channel sound). My JVC DVD recorder's tuner is also being used and it's analog inputs are hooked up to the receiver's VCR-1 input (along with a digital coax of course). Lastly, I played the movie "Top Gun" (Widescreen Special Director's Edition) and set the audio to regular Dolby surround in the setup menu. The DPLII mode appropriately engaged all 7 speakers. I'm truly puzzled at this point. Has anyone out there been able to engage PLIIx and or CSII on analog cable TV channels and hear sound through the surrounds?
Oh, someone mentioned that they couldn't get a reading on their SPL meter while trying to set the speaker levels. I experienced the same thing. SPL meter set to "C" weighting/slow response at 80db. My SPL meter barely moved!

[Stereojeff]

I believe EKB is nearly correct with his LFE level comment. However, it was the early DTS CD's that had their recorded LFE 10 dB too high. For their playback, you should lower the LFE level to -10 dB.

Jeff

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by Kapolei01

Has anyone out there been able to engage PLIIx and or CSII on analog cable TV channels and hear sound through the surrounds?
Oh, someone mentioned that they couldn't get a reading on their SPL meter while trying to set the speaker levels. I experienced the same thing. SPL meter set to "C" weighting/slow response at 80db. My SPL meter barely moved!

PLIIx and CSII works fine for me on analog sources. Something's up though, on analog sources I don't get a speaker diagram at all (it turns off). How do you get your cable TV - through an analog method or through a digital set-top box that sends both analog and digital channels?

Are you getting a Dolby Digital, Dolby Surround or PCM flag on your display?

Do you have both optical/digital coaxial and analog L/R audio from your cable box to the receiver?

Regarding the SPL meter, do you turn up the volume when you take readings? I have to turn mine up to 0 to get a 75 dB reading - there's a 10 dB attenuation when the unit is producing test tones. So if you test at normal listening level your meter will probably not read anything.

[ekb]

Originally Posted by Stereojeff

I believe EKB is nearly correct with his LFE level comment. However, it was the early DTS CD's that had their recorded LFE 10 dB too high. For their playback, you should lower the LFE level to -10 dB.

It was my understanding that the LFE channel in movies is recorded 10 dB DOWN to give it more headroom. By default, receivers and Pre/pros boost the LFE by 10 dB on playback to restore the proper LFE volume. But now such a system can improperly boost music bass by 10 dB. That's why one has the -10 dB option.

Ed

[Kapolei01]

Originally Posted by Fraoch

PLIIx and CSII works fine for me on analog sources. Something's up though, on analog sources I don't get a speaker diagram at all (it turns off). How do you get your cable TV - through an analog method or through a digital set-top box that sends both analog and digital channels?

Are you getting a Dolby Digital, Dolby Surround or PCM flag on your display?

Do you have both optical/digital coaxial and analog L/R audio from your cable box to the receiver?

Regarding the SPL meter, do you turn up the volume when you take readings? I have to turn mine up to 0 to get a 75 dB reading - there's a 10 dB attenuation when the unit is producing test tones. So if you test at normal listening level your meter will probably not read anything.

I'm using a Scientific Atlanta digital set-top box. Yes, I have a digital coax and analog L/R running from the cable box to the receiver. I had it set up this way on my HK to make sure that I received Logic-7 decoding when I switched from a digital channel to an analog channel.

I'm having no problem receiving PLIIx or CSII through the surrounds on digital cable channels. I dug back into the manual and on pg 25 there's a matrix which describes the relation between the selected surround mode and the input signal. For PLIIx, the manual states that in Pro Logic, PCM audio input signal can decode into PLIIx movie (for example) and the signal format indicator will only display PCM (L/R speakers on the display).

Then for plain analog to PLIIx, you will not see a speaker diagram on the display. That explains why you didn't see anything in analog. So depending on the specific mode, the speaker diagram will show differently. That matrix is actually very helpful. I received this receiver last Thursday, got it hooked up Friday but I haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces fully. I'll do more extensive listening through more analog channels; maybe the ones I've been flipping through didn't have any surround info present.

As for the test tones, yeah, I had increased the receiver volume before but I guess I didn't turn it up high enough. I was afraid of clipping the signal. Now, I'm good to go on that; 75db all around, including the sub. Fraoch, as gprr01 mentioned, I'm glad you started this thread. I've had a hometheater setup since 1996 (2 Yamaha's, Sony ES, 2 HKs, now the Marantz) and I've helped many friends set up and calibrate their home theaters. However, each receiver has it's own setup/quirks, etc.

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by Kapolei01

I'm having no problem receiving PLIIx or CSII through the surrounds on digital cable channels. I dug back into the manual and on pg 25 there's a matrix which describes the relation between the selected surround mode and the input signal. For PLIIx, the manual states that in Pro Logic, PCM audio input signal can decode into PLIIx movie (for example) and the signal format indicator will only display PCM (L/R speakers on the display).

Then for plain analog to PLIIx, you will not see a speaker diagram on the display. That explains why you didn't see anything in analog. So depending on the specific mode, the speaker diagram will show differently. That matrix is actually very helpful. I received this receiver last Thursday, got it hooked up Friday but I haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces fully. I'll do more extensive listening through more analog channels; maybe the ones I've been flipping through didn't have any surround info present.

Hmm, so on the analog channels the signal is sent digitally as a 2-channel PCM stream? Then yes, it would display only L/R on the display.

Try CSII mono. On a 2-channel PCM signal it should put a fairly loud copy on the surrounds and rears. That will indicate whether the CSII decoder is working properly. With PLIIx, I notice that the following have noticeable surround information:

- commercials
- CSI
- ER
- The Simpsons is encoded in Dolby Surround but actually has very little surround info - however you do get surround activity from time to time

I'll be in the same situation as you in a few months. I'll be going back to satellite. When I had it before, there were some channels in Dolby Digital 2.0, some movies in Dolby Digital 5.1, but the rest was in 2-channel digital PCM. I only used the optical digital output though - I connected the analog L/R cables directly to the TV so I could watch TV for light viewing without having to turn on the receiver.

In input setup, page 18, do you have TV set for "D-AT" (auto digital/analog detect), "Dig" (digital only) or "ANA" (analog only)?

You don't have the receiver set to AUTO SURROUND? This seems to like choosing stereo for sources other than DVDs. Pretty useless IMHO.

You indicate you've already played around with the "A/D" button on the remote.

[Kapolei01]

Originally Posted by Fraoch

Hmm, so on the analog channels the signal is sent digitally as a 2-channel PCM stream? Then yes, it would display only L/R on the display.

Try CSII mono. On a 2-channel PCM signal it should put a fairly loud copy on the surrounds and rears. That will indicate whether the CSII decoder is working properly. With PLIIx, I notice that the following have noticeable surround information:

- commercials
- CSI
- ER
- The Simpsons is encoded in Dolby Surround but actually has very little surround info - however you do get surround activity from time to time

I'll be in the same situation as you in a few months. I'll be going back to satellite. When I had it before, there were some channels in Dolby Digital 2.0, some movies in Dolby Digital 5.1, but the rest was in 2-channel digital PCM. I only used the optical digital output though - I connected the analog L/R cables directly to the TV so I could watch TV for light viewing without having to turn on the receiver.

In input setup, page 18, do you have TV set for "D-AT" (auto digital/analog detect), "Dig" (digital only) or "ANA" (analog only)?

You don't have the receiver set to AUTO SURROUND? This seems to like choosing stereo for sources other than DVDs. Pretty useless IMHO.

You indicate you've already played around with the "A/D" button on the remote.

Yeah, I did play with the A/D button on the remote. Hey, check out the matrix on page 26. There's also a note on the bottom left hand side of the page that says: Dolby Digital (2 ch: Lt/Rt): signal with (when) Dolby Surround flag speakers are set.

> No sound outputs from the surround speaker, center speaker, and subwoofer if the DVD disc has no surround data.

Hmm, that probably explains why I didn't hear any sound at all through the surrounds on some analog cable channels, although I do hear sound from the center channel speaker.
_______________________________________
Update: I turned to TBS and the Braves were playing the Phillies. I was able to hear sound through all surround speakers in PLIIx and CSII. I guess it was a matter of finding an analog channel with some info present in the surround channels.

In this respect, the manual is accurate. Logic 7 cinema/music is more aggressive; no matter what analog channel I was watching, I could always hear something in the surrounds (even if it was subtle, in case anyone is thinking maybe Logic 7 was a little too aggressive).

So initially, I'd have to say that Logic-7's channel steering is little a better than PLIIx and CSII (at least on this receiver). As a final note; I did some speaker level adjustments in each PLIIx and CSII mode also. So far, I'm impressed with this receiver's clarity though. Center channel dialog is clearer than the HK's in my opinion, however, in my initial impression, I think the receivers sound very similar overall.

I'll keep everyone posted as I listen to more music, movies, etc. I'm running a set of Polk Audio 250 watt towers (older RT-12/16s?), Polk center channel, Atlantic Tech dipoles on the sides, Polk audio sats in the rear. 65-inch Sony widescreen rear-projection HD-monitor calibrated with DVE disk.

[gprro1]

My 8400 seems to be lacking vocal weight. Images are more defined ( but smaller )and detailed than my other receiver, but I thinks it's due to a recess in the lower mid range. Anyone else notice this?

[gprro1]

Just finished 1st Austin powers, and I'm kind of struggling to hear dialog clearly on lower volume dialog passages. It seems when people lower there voices, the volume goes down more than it should, not linear. I don't know what to think now. Many aspects of the sound are better than my H/K avr 80 ( old but very good, $1600 10 years ago ) but the dialog and some vocals don't seem right. Anyone in N.C. have an 8400 that would be willing to compare if I brought mine over? I don't know if mine is exactly right. Oh yeah, I'm in Wake county.

[Kapolei01]

Originally Posted by gprro1

Just finished 1st Austin powers, and I'm kind of struggling to hear dialog clearly on lower volume dialog passages. It seems when people lower there voices, the volume goes down more than it should, not linear. I don't know what to think now. Many aspects of the sound are better than my H/K avr 80 ( old but very good, $1600 10 years ago ) but the dialog and some vocals don't seem right. Anyone in N.C. have an 8400 that would be willing to compare if I brought mine over? I don't know if mine is exactly right. Oh yeah, I'm in Wake county.

Try doing a search on "voice dialog during movies." You'll find several posts (including one by Fraoch with a link to some discussions). Some reading I've done in past discussions centered on how voice dialog in the center channel was barely audible and then you'd hear a big explosion or something when during scene transitions and find yourself scrambling to turn the volume down.

Sometimes, subjective to the way the director intended the movie to be (much like screen aspect ratios), or the way it was recorded by the Sound Engineer (someone correct me if I'm wrong). By the way, have you done a speaker level calibration yet?

I remember that HK AVR-80. I read a an excellent review on it in Stereo Review (now Sound & Vision Mag) years ago. The reviews were more critical than they are now.

I also read one issue which had a competing Marantz SR-96 in it where the reviewer mentioned that the internal parts in the HK & Marantz were very similar (at the time, as well as the sound).
Here's a link to a site that has reviews on both:
http://202.186.86.35/audio/search.asp (click on hometheater)

Coincidentally, I mentioned that my HK AVR-525 and the SR-8400 sound similar to me (early on). I don't know if it's because they have Cirrus Logic chips in both or not.

[Fraoch]

Originally Posted by gprro1

Just finished 1st Austin powers, and I'm kind of struggling to hear dialog clearly on lower volume dialog passages. It seems when people lower there voices, the volume goes down more than it should, not linear. I don't know what to think now. Many aspects of the sound are better than my H/K avr 80 ( old but very good, $1600 10 years ago ) but the dialog and some vocals don't seem right. Anyone in N.C. have an 8400 that would be willing to compare if I brought mine over? I don't know if mine is exactly right. Oh yeah, I'm in Wake county.

I think the general consensus is that problems with dialogue is one of the most apparent and annoying aspects of room interaction - "blurring" or "smearing" of the front soundstage caused by first reflections.

Channel level is crucial for the centre speaker. In every setup I've ever done, the centre channel was the one that needed the most adjustment. I'm beginning to think the centre channel may have to be adjusted 2-3 dB higher than the other channels for Dolby Digital and dts. Thankfully the Marantz receivers help out here as there are individual channel trim adjustments specific to both DD and dts.

There's also Dolby Digital's Dialog Normalization (dialnorm) which places dialogue 25-30 dB lower than effects volume. This is to allow for 75 dB dialogue with 100 dB effects, but if you're listening to a Dolby Digital track at lower volumes the dialnorm may make quiet vocal passages too quiet. Apparently some movies have a higher dialnorm than others - IIRC Roger Dressler from Dolby Labs stated that The Lord of the Rings DD tracks had a dialnorm of 32 dB, which is higher than most.

[Kapolei01]

[quote=Fraoch]I think the general consensus is that problems with dialogue is one of the most apparent and annoying aspects of room interaction - "blurring" or "smearing" of the front soundstage caused by first reflections.

Channel level is crucial for the centre speaker. In every setup I've ever done, the centre channel was the one that needed the most adjustment. I'm beginning to think the centre channel may have to be adjusted 2-3 dB higher than the other channels for Dolby Digital and dts. Thankfully the Marantz receivers help out here as there are individual channel trim adjustments specific to both DD and dts.

Yeah,

Same here. I've adjusted my center channel about the same (2-3 db) on every receiver I've owned as well as others whose systems I helped calibrate. Fraoch, I read that Dolby Dialog Normalization in one of your posts. Good info.