Help design the new Behringer Sub Equalizer BSE2496C to replace the BFD...

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 04:00 PM

I'm posting this info in this forum because there appears to be more posts here on the BFD than any other forum.

I have spoken with Behringer and they have shown serious interest in designing a replacement for the BFD that is more suited to the consumer market. As many of you may already know... the DSP1124 has been discontinued. The replacement FBQ2496 only offers 1 preset and still doesn't get us many of the needed features for a total sub eq package.

This is not something to necessarily compete with the Velo SMS-1. We are trying to keep the street price around $150-200, which includes a built-in mic amp with phantom power and a built-in SPL meter... the recommended Behringer ECM8000 mic would be extra if you need one (~$50 at Parts Express). We would continue to recommend using RoomEQ Wizard as the software program of choice due to its increasing and overwhelming popularity.

This is something we are pretty optimistic about. Keep in mind that the consumer HT world is what put the BFD on the map. Therefore Behringer has interest.

At this point in time we have no set time frame as to when we could expect this unit to hit the shelves. After the suggested features are submitted we hope to get a general idea of a time frame. Behringer has many of these features already incorporated in their various products, so we are hoping it would not be a long drawn out process.

Here are the features we are considering at present. We are looking for suggestions, comments, recommendations, etc. Remember to keep in mind the target street price. KISS!

Proposal for the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub Equalizer 24/96 Consumer)

The consumer home theater world has for several years used the BFD DSP1124P as a parametric sub eq to level out the response of their sub(s). The unit has been extremely popular and continues to be the popular choice for sub equalization, where it can be found, being that it has been recently discontinued.

We are basing the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub EQ 24/96 Consumer) on similarities to several of your products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in four categories, the first being features in the DSP1124 and/or the FBQ2496 that we would like to keep as they are. Second are the essential features we would like, as well as several requested changes from the current BFD units. These are what we consider the must haves, if at all possible. Third are features/changes that we would like, but could live without if we just had too, although we believe they should have a minimal cost factor and might be easier included than we think. Fourth are features available in other Behringer models or new features that we would like to be considered, but could be reserved for a second higher-end model if they will cause the target unit to exceed our target price.

We are not requesting a software program due to the free availability of the RoomEQ Wizard program. The target price we would like to see is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world. The majority of BFD 1124 owners were able to acquire their unit for $100-125.

Features on the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496 we would like to keep:
~ Two independent channels.
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
~ Front panel display.
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
~ Low power consumption.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
~ Hard bypass relay.
~ Noise-free.
~ 107db dynamic range.
~ 0.007% THD.
~ High-quality components.
~ High-quality construction.
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
~ One year warranty.

Essential features and changes that we would like and should have a very minimal cost factor:
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
~ Dimmable front panel LED’s / lights with OFF option.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED’s on front panel vs. red.
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.

* If it will save cost, limiting the upper frequency response and filter capabilities to 400hz is acceptable.

With the above features and changes this unit should sell like a hot potato at a steak house. We believe these are reasonable features for a street priced unit at $150-200.

Requested features/changes that won’t make or break the unit, but would be nice to have if minimal cost factor:
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
~ Detachable power cord.

Next are the more elaborate features that you already have in some of your units, plus a few other added requested features, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on your cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible, offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a higher cost.

Elaborate requested features with unknown cost factor for implementation (in order of relevance):
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves – individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
~ Video display instead of LED’s… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.
~ Fully integrated software program (something similar to RoomEQ Wizard).
~ Auto-EQ (with ability to manually adjust suggested filters).

NOTE: I do not work for Behringer or anyone else. When I say "we" this and "we" that... I am referring to what the majority has voiced thus far. Just like I have never been paid for the BFD GUIDE or the BFD FORUM... I am not getting paid to do this. It is because of the GUIDE and FORUM that I have a strong voice with Behringer, but it is because of YOU and the HT world that we can have the opportunity to have a new product designed. It won't get to market because of me... it will succeed because of you. It will benefit me no more than anyone else that has interest... but it is fun and it will be a huge benefit to all of us looking for such a product.

Thanks!

jvgillow · 02-07-06, 04:27 PM

Sounds like a nice array of planned features. All of the gripes I have with the current BFD seem to have been addressed, especially the ground loop problem. I would include optional rack mount ears (like those offered with power conditioner consoles to convert them into rack-mountable), given the number of people who will end up integrating it into an equipment rack.

I'm not sure a built-in mic and SPL meter would be needed, given how many HT enthusiasts already have access to one, but on the other hand having a mic that is accurate to below 20 Hz would be great since the Radioshack SPL meter needs additional compensation. Other things low on my priority list would be the remote control and DC-on/off (since there will be Auto-on) but I realize some people would probably really want those features. In any event, if Behringer can pull this off for $200 MSRP that would be very impressive.

gurehamu · 02-07-06, 04:27 PM

I would recommend changing #13. Most consumers do not have a midi interface on their computer these days. RS-232 or (preferably, if not cost prohibitive) USB would be a better choice, IMHO.

ManicMiner · 02-07-06, 04:30 PM

Thats a great idea!

The only thing I would add would be a USB instead of a MIDI interface. It is very hard, and expensive to get a soundcard with MIDI interface for a laptop, and I guess mots of us uses laptops with RoomEQ Wizard.

If it came down to a choice I would much rather have USB then remote and RTA.

dae3dae3 · 02-07-06, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurehamu

I would recommend changing #13. Most consumers do not have a midi interface on their computer these days. RS-232 or (preferably, if not cost prohibitive) USB would be a better choice, IMHO.

This is a good suggestion a long as it does not add cost. Midi interface is standard in the pro-audio world so there may be additional development costs to produce a unit with a RS-232 interface.

jvgillow · 02-07-06, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dae3dae3

This is a good suggestion a long as it does not add cost. Midi interface is standard in the pro-audio world so there may be additional development costs to produce a unit with a RS-232 interface.

Well that and RS-232 is phased out on most modern laptops and some desktops. USB -> RS232 adapters are available but so are USB -> Midi adapters.

NowWhat? · 02-07-06, 04:39 PM

This would be a great product.

I would like to see USB rather than midi. This is a consumer product after all.

Also, if cost starts to go over the $200 mark, I agree with Jeremy that the built-in mic and SPL meter could go.

SteveCallas · 02-07-06, 04:40 PM

Sounds great - I would be very interested. I don't have a BFD now because I have had a few reservations with the current designs, but a product like this seems to address all of them. This would legitimately become a true must have subwoofer add on at $150.

For #17, I would hope it wouldn't be limited to something in large increments - 3hz increments would be great. And are we talking brickwall or a gradual reduction?

I also agree on USB as the preferred output.

Looking forward to this product - hope it's not vaporware.

LeeLee · 02-07-06, 04:41 PM

Wow, that list is pretty complete.

I think the phantom power for a measurement microphone is definitely a very good idea. Make sure the gain of the microphone is adjustable because some of us have the Nady CM-100 microphone.

Placement of the connectors should be considered since many of the connectors such as the midi, microphone, and microphone line-out would be used only when doing measurments and thus should be on the front hidden behind a door.

How about 12 volt trigger with delay capability? When combined with the soft-turn on, this would solve even other turn-on pop problems.

For the remote control, it would be valuable not so much for turn-on as I am almost certainly going to want to have this unit come online automatically with my system. Instead, I would love a way to quickly dial the sub output up and down in 1/2 dB steps so that I can quickly tailor the subwoofer "hotness" according to music type. And a quick button to return to default "0" setting. A range of +- 11dB would be good.

Can't wait for this to be released. Would be in line to buy one.

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 04:42 PM

Yup... I think that's what most people are doing... USB to Midi. Although throwing it the option to have USB vs. Midi provided it would not accelerate the cost, might be worthwhile.

FoxyMulder · 02-07-06, 04:48 PM

Whatever is made it should be easy for non-technical people to use therefore having an inbuilt microphone would be a great idea.

I have USB ports on the computer but no Midi interface.

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveCallas

For #17, I would hope it wouldn't be limited to something in large increments - 3hz increments would be great. And are we talking brickwall or a gradual reduction?

What would be your suggestion? 3hz increments from 25hz down to 15hz?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeLee

Make sure the gain of the microphone is adjustable because some of us have the Nady CM-100 microphone.

Placement of the connectors should be considered since many of the connectors such as the midi, microphone, and microphone line-out would be used only when doing measurments and thus should be on the front hidden behind a door.

Great recommendations... definitely need gain control if the mic amp is going to be included.

SteveCallas · 02-07-06, 04:50 PM

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of people who are interested in this type of thing already have a radio shack spl meter. No need for added costs.

SteveCallas · 02-07-06, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonnie Parker

What would be your suggestion? 3hz increments from 25hz down to 15hz?

Preferably 3hz increments from 10hz - 25hz. More and more material in dvds is getting lower and lower, leading people like me to build crazy subs. A 15hz brickwall is counterproductive for me. A 10hz or 13hz rolloff would be perfect though.

I can tell you I am already getting excited at the prospects

Jack Gilvey · 02-07-06, 04:55 PM

Pastel faceplate, and a fuzz box.

gurehamu · 02-07-06, 05:04 PM

As someone who is typing from a powerbook, I agree that a USB connector is preferrable.

I suggested the rs-232 (DB9) port for cost reasons. My understanding is that most manufactures simply embed a USB-serial bridge chip in the device (the same chips typically found in an external usb to serial adapter) so they don't have to develop a custom USB device driver? I imagine the cost difference comes down to pennies these days and I'm standing by for someone with direct experience to correct me.

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveCallas

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of people who are interested in this type of thing already have a radio shack spl meter. No need for added costs.

I don't think this has a very expensive cost factor, but it is something that would be discussed with the designer to make sure. For folks that do not own a BFD or SPL meter then it would save them $35-40. Plus we know the RS SPL Meter is not accurate, even with correction values. For level matching it's okay though.

ManicMiner · 02-07-06, 05:10 PM

I would prioritize the mic amp over the remote control, but the mic amp would only be usefull if you can connect the BSE2496C to a PC and use the readings from the mic together with RoomEQ Wizard

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 05:10 PM

Keep in mind that while Behringer is very interested in designing this unit, I plan on pointing them to here to see just what kind of response and interest there is. I figure this will be the forum that will have the best response. This should increase their interest even more and possibly expedite the build. So... it would help if we could notify as many folks as possible to post a positive response of interest. Thanks!

SteveCallas · 02-07-06, 05:11 PM

Fair enough - my biggest priority would be the low frequency settings for a high pass (rumble) filter.

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManicMiner

...the mic amp would only be usefull if you can connect the BSE2496C to a PC and use the readings from the mic together with RoomEQ Wizard

Precisely.... if we can't get the monitoring to the PC then it's not going to do us any good at all and we'd be better off without it. Although I don't see a monitoring output being a problem.

---k--- · 02-07-06, 05:12 PM

Wow, that is quite a list.

I think if it did all that and sold for $150, I would pre-order one tomorrow to replace my current 1124p BFD.

I haven't really gotten into it to much yet, but the thing that would be top on my list would be going down to 10hz, instead of the current 20hz. Some of the features that would make it emulate a LT circuit would be next on my list.

All the looks features would be nice, but if it would push this over the $200 mark, I may start to look elsewhere.

And the built in SPL and RTA monitoring ability would be nice, but not worth the cost.

kingsqueak · 02-07-06, 05:21 PM

Man, slap me if I'm missing something.

I see no use whatsoever for a unit purely to EQ your subwoofer.

Why not a generic signal processor for the full system? Do you not have some other means of control as far as crossover already managing what is passed to your sub?

Their model DEQ2496 should do the trick if they only added unbalanced in/out to make things easier.

I used to run a DSP8024 for a club system, it wasn't bad, but you really don't want to do much other than some polishing up with it. The coarse adjustments really have to be done via the active crossovers first to keep things clean. Then you approach it with the actual signal path.

I couldn't find the FBQ2496 you mentioned on their site.

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ---k---

All the looks features would be nice, but if it would push this over the $200 mark, I may start to look elsewhere.

And the built in SPL and RTA monitoring ability would be nice, but not worth the cost.

Agree.... we will have to rationalize which features are going to be more important if the cost exceeds our target pricing. With so many folks already having the mic, SPL meter, etc. this would probably be the first features to be eliminated.

jvgillow · 02-07-06, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingsqueak

Why not a generic signal processor for the full system? Do you not have some other means of control as far as crossover already managing what is passed to your sub?

Crossover isn't the issue, parametric equalization to improve in-room response is.

Most people don't have the capability to externally equalize all channels unless they have a pre/pro with separate amps, or one of the rare receivers that has pre-out/amp-in. More receiver models are now including basic equalization for the main speakers but they don't focus on the subwoofer.

Sonnie Parker · 02-07-06, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingsqueak

Man, slap me if I'm missing something.

Hmmm... as Roy D. Mercer would ask... just how big uh ole boy are ya? I don't know if I'd wanna slap ya but how boutsa buttsmack?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingsqueak

I couldn't find the FBQ2496 you mentioned on their site.

FBQ2496

Warpdrv · 02-07-06, 05:35 PM

This would be a huge must have product, as the dinkin around to get the current bfd to work in the Home Theater application is quite lengthy....

I would suggest USB, but then Programming of such a periferral can become alot of work to get standards to be incorporated...(maybe Im wrong - I hope so) It might just be a faster solution and very easy and inexpensive for anyone with a Laptop to get a USB to Midi connector...
That would save alot of time for Behringer to get this out to the public faster...
Remember Midi is a standard for these guys, and Im guessing implementation would be the easiest...

Don't get me wrong I prefer USB, just not sure if it would slow the process down.

Warp

chasw98 · 02-07-06, 05:38 PM

Must keep the ability to rack mount. The ears could be offered aftermarket for additional cost so that they would not impede list price of ~$200.00.

The reason MIDI is in the BFD is because it was aimed at musicians who program a lot of electronics using Midi controls and the presets in the BFD could be changed as other setups were changing. Personally, I have soundcard to midi cables (from my wayback days) but I can see where USB would be consumer friendly.

The ability to dim the display or blank it. YES!

I agree with Steve Callas. A filter that is very useful for the extreme lower frequencies <10 Hz is very desirable.

You have to remember that Behringer already makes a semi calibrated mic, real time digital analyzers and a lot of the other features that we are looking for all in one. It might cut into their profits. Buy a New BFD and buy a mic = 2 sales!

I am surprised that no one has asked for on screen video display! If we are dreaming then dream big! Imagine watching your FR appear on your screen after shooting the room. And if we are asking for a mic input, why not ask them to dream up a way to store measurement from say 6 locations and then merge them all into one comprehensive chart!

I think everything I want included has been mentioned already, but every voice helps, especially if they are listening.

Chuck

OvalNut · 02-07-06, 05:38 PM

Dear Behringer,

If you build it, we will come.

Seriously.

Tim

---k--- · 02-07-06, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonnie Parker

Agree.... we will have to rationalize which features are going to be more important if the cost exceeds our target pricing. With so many folks already having the mic, SPL meter, etc. this would probably be the first features to be eliminated.

Yeah. It's nice to have a pie in the sky list of nice features to have. But, looking at the Velodyne SMS-1 price should give everyone an idea of how much all those features will cost.

I'm thinking in terms of taking their existing product and with a few minor mods, to make it more appealing, but not add a lot of cost. To me, that would be start with the 1124P features, upgrade it to the 2496 hardware, extend the usuable range down to 10hz, add shelving filters, add switch to turn off the front panel display, add a USB port, include a copy of REQW in the box (give a big kickback to John), and your done.

Do those things for $150, and again I'll pre-order one right now.

02-07-06, 04:00 PM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
Sonnie Parker The Hillbilly AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: L. A. . . . . . . . (Lower Alabama) Posts: 364 Classified Rating: 100% (9)	Help design the new Behringer Sub Equalizer BSE2496C to replace the BFD... I'm posting this info in this forum because there appears to be more posts here on the BFD than any other forum. I have spoken with Behringer and they have shown serious interest in designing a replacement for the BFD that is more suited to the consumer market. As many of you may already know... the DSP1124 has been discontinued. The replacement FBQ2496 only offers 1 preset and still doesn't get us many of the needed features for a total sub eq package. This is not something to necessarily compete with the Velo SMS-1. We are trying to keep the street price around $150-200, which includes a built-in mic amp with phantom power and a built-in SPL meter... the recommended Behringer ECM8000 mic would be extra if you need one (~$50 at Parts Express). We would continue to recommend using RoomEQ Wizard as the software program of choice due to its increasing and overwhelming popularity. This is something we are pretty optimistic about. Keep in mind that the consumer HT world is what put the BFD on the map. Therefore Behringer has interest. At this point in time we have no set time frame as to when we could expect this unit to hit the shelves. After the suggested features are submitted we hope to get a general idea of a time frame. Behringer has many of these features already incorporated in their various products, so we are hoping it would not be a long drawn out process. Here are the features we are considering at present. We are looking for suggestions, comments, recommendations, etc. Remember to keep in mind the target street price. KISS! Proposal for the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub Equalizer 24/96 Consumer) The consumer home theater world has for several years used the BFD DSP1124P as a parametric sub eq to level out the response of their sub(s). The unit has been extremely popular and continues to be the popular choice for sub equalization, where it can be found, being that it has been recently discontinued. We are basing the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub EQ 24/96 Consumer) on similarities to several of your products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in four categories, the first being features in the DSP1124 and/or the FBQ2496 that we would like to keep as they are. Second are the essential features we would like, as well as several requested changes from the current BFD units. These are what we consider the must haves, if at all possible. Third are features/changes that we would like, but could live without if we just had too, although we believe they should have a minimal cost factor and might be easier included than we think. Fourth are features available in other Behringer models or new features that we would like to be considered, but could be reserved for a second higher-end model if they will cause the target unit to exceed our target price. We are not requesting a software program due to the free availability of the RoomEQ Wizard program. The target price we would like to see is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world. The majority of BFD 1124 owners were able to acquire their unit for $100-125. Features on the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496 we would like to keep: ~ Two independent channels. ~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too). ~ Channel coupling and series looping. ~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass. ~ Input/output LED level indicators. ~ LED filter indicators for both channels. ~ Front panel display. ~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial. ~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP. ~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz). ~ Low power consumption. ~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear. ~ Hard bypass relay. ~ Noise-free. ~ 107db dynamic range. ~ 0.007% THD. ~ High-quality components. ~ High-quality construction. ~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs. ~ One year warranty. Essential features and changes that we would like and should have a very minimal cost factor: ~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal. ~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum. ~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum. ~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz). ~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz. ~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter. ~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets. ~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs. ~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies). ~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments). ~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet. ~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180. ~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers). ~ Dimmable front panel LED’s / lights with OFF option. ~ Soft blue and/or green LED’s on front panel vs. red. ~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black. ~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style. ~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached). ~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed. ~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment. ~ Remove graphic design from top of unit. If it will save cost, limiting the upper frequency response and filter capabilities to 400hz is acceptable. With the above features and changes this unit should sell like a hot potato at a steak house. We believe these are reasonable features for a street priced unit at $150-200. Requested features/changes that won’t make or break the unit, but would be nice to have if minimal cost factor: ~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping. ~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments). ~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc. ~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub. ~ Ability to slave multiple units together. ~ Linkwitz transform circuit. ~ Detachable power cord. Next are the more elaborate features that you already have in some of your units, plus a few other added requested features, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on your cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible, offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a higher cost. Elaborate requested features with unknown cost factor for implementation (in order of relevance): ~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave. ~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass). ~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control. ~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting. ~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves – individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz). ~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring. ~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover. ~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this. ~ Video display instead of LED’s… (dimmable and selectable OFF). ~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons. ~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters. ~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available. ~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible. ~ Fully integrated software program (something similar to RoomEQ Wizard). ~ Auto-EQ (with ability to manually adjust suggested filters). NOTE: I do not work for Behringer or anyone else. When I say "we" this and "we" that... I am referring to what the majority has voiced thus far. Just like I have never been paid for the BFD GUIDE or the BFD FORUM... I am not getting paid to do this. It is because of the GUIDE and FORUM that I have a strong voice with Behringer, but it is because of YOU and the HT world that we can have the opportunity to have a new product designed. It won't get to market because of me... it will succeed because of you. It will benefit me no more than anyone else that has interest... but it is fun and it will be a huge benefit to all of us looking for such a product. Thanks! __________________ Cedar Creek Cinema BFD Guide Last edited by Sonnie Parker; 02-15-06 at 12:38 PM..

02-07-06, 04:27 PM	#2 \| Link
jvgillow AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 2,364	Sounds like a nice array of planned features. All of the gripes I have with the current BFD seem to have been addressed, especially the ground loop problem. I would include optional rack mount ears (like those offered with power conditioner consoles to convert them into rack-mountable), given the number of people who will end up integrating it into an equipment rack. I'm not sure a built-in mic and SPL meter would be needed, given how many HT enthusiasts already have access to one, but on the other hand having a mic that is accurate to below 20 Hz would be great since the Radioshack SPL meter needs additional compensation. Other things low on my priority list would be the remote control and DC-on/off (since there will be Auto-on) but I realize some people would probably really want those features. In any event, if Behringer can pull this off for $200 MSRP that would be very impressive. __________________ Jeremy Gillow Gear \| Prev Gear \| Movies \| Music

02-07-06, 04:30 PM	#4 \| Link
ManicMiner Advanced Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 592	Thats a great idea! The only thing I would add would be a USB instead of a MIDI interface. It is very hard, and expensive to get a soundcard with MIDI interface for a laptop, and I guess mots of us uses laptops with RoomEQ Wizard. If it came down to a choice I would much rather have USB then remote and RTA. __________________ Thomas. Rated R for non-stop dumbness, language and some nudity

02-07-06, 04:39 PM	#7 \| Link
NowWhat? Mentally Unstable Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	This would be a great product. I would like to see USB rather than midi. This is a consumer product after all. Also, if cost starts to go over the $200 mark, I agree with Jeremy that the built-in mic and SPL meter could go. __________________ -- No, really. What do I do now? --

02-07-06, 04:40 PM	#8 \| Link
SteveCallas American Gladiator Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,453	Sounds great - I would be very interested. I don't have a BFD now because I have had a few reservations with the current designs, but a product like this seems to address all of them. This would legitimately become a true must have subwoofer add on at $150. For #17, I would hope it wouldn't be limited to something in large increments - 3hz increments would be great. And are we talking brickwall or a gradual reduction? I also agree on USB as the preferred output. Looking forward to this product - hope it's not vaporware. __________________ My Setup LLT Explained

02-07-06, 04:27 PM	#3 \| Link
gurehamu New Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 4	I would recommend changing #13. Most consumers do not have a midi interface on their computer these days. RS-232 or (preferably, if not cost prohibitive) USB would be a better choice, IMHO.

02-07-06, 04:41 PM	#9 \| Link
LeeLee Greedy Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,306	Wow, that list is pretty complete. I think the phantom power for a measurement microphone is definitely a very good idea. Make sure the gain of the microphone is adjustable because some of us have the Nady CM-100 microphone. Placement of the connectors should be considered since many of the connectors such as the midi, microphone, and microphone line-out would be used only when doing measurments and thus should be on the front hidden behind a door. How about 12 volt trigger with delay capability? When combined with the soft-turn on, this would solve even other turn-on pop problems. For the remote control, it would be valuable not so much for turn-on as I am almost certainly going to want to have this unit come online automatically with my system. Instead, I would love a way to quickly dial the sub output up and down in 1/2 dB steps so that I can quickly tailor the subwoofer "hotness" according to music type. And a quick button to return to default "0" setting. A range of +- 11dB would be good. Can't wait for this to be released. Would be in line to buy one.

02-07-06, 04:42 PM	#10 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Sonnie Parker The Hillbilly AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: L. A. . . . . . . . (Lower Alabama) Posts: 364 Classified Rating: 100% (9)	Yup... I think that's what most people are doing... USB to Midi. Although throwing it the option to have USB vs. Midi provided it would not accelerate the cost, might be worthwhile. __________________ Cedar Creek Cinema BFD Guide

02-07-06, 04:48 PM	#11 \| Link
FoxyMulder 2Cute Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 5,752	Whatever is made it should be easy for non-technical people to use therefore having an inbuilt microphone would be a great idea. I have USB ports on the computer but no Midi interface. __________________ ----- ----- ----- ----- The Film Reference List - Click Here ---- ----- ------ -------- ---- ----- --- I'm Just A Fluffy Wuffy Wabbit --------- ----- ---- ------- ----

02-07-06, 04:50 PM	#13 \| Link
SteveCallas American Gladiator Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,453	I think it's pretty safe to assume that the majority of people who are interested in this type of thing already have a radio shack spl meter. No need for added costs. __________________ My Setup LLT Explained

02-07-06, 04:55 PM	#15 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Jack Gilvey AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Jersey,USA Posts: 6,152	Pastel faceplate, and a fuzz box.

02-07-06, 05:04 PM	#16 \| Link
gurehamu New Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 4	As someone who is typing from a powerbook, I agree that a USB connector is preferrable. I suggested the rs-232 (DB9) port for cost reasons. My understanding is that most manufactures simply embed a USB-serial bridge chip in the device (the same chips typically found in an external usb to serial adapter) so they don't have to develop a custom USB device driver? I imagine the cost difference comes down to pennies these days and I'm standing by for someone with direct experience to correct me.

02-07-06, 05:10 PM	#18 \| Link
ManicMiner Advanced Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 592	I would prioritize the mic amp over the remote control, but the mic amp would only be usefull if you can connect the BSE2496C to a PC and use the readings from the mic together with RoomEQ Wizard __________________ Thomas. Rated R for non-stop dumbness, language and some nudity

02-07-06, 05:10 PM	#19 \| Link
Sonnie Parker The Hillbilly AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: L. A. . . . . . . . (Lower Alabama) Posts: 364 Classified Rating: 100% (9)	Keep in mind that while Behringer is very interested in designing this unit, I plan on pointing them to here to see just what kind of response and interest there is. I figure this will be the forum that will have the best response. This should increase their interest even more and possibly expedite the build. So... it would help if we could notify as many folks as possible to post a positive response of interest. Thanks! __________________ Cedar Creek Cinema BFD Guide

02-07-06, 05:11 PM	#20 \| Link
SteveCallas American Gladiator Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,453	Fair enough - my biggest priority would be the low frequency settings for a high pass (rumble) filter. __________________ My Setup LLT Explained

02-07-06, 05:12 PM	#22 \| Link
---k--- AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,475	Wow, that is quite a list. I think if it did all that and sold for $150, I would pre-order one tomorrow to replace my current 1124p BFD. I haven't really gotten into it to much yet, but the thing that would be top on my list would be going down to 10hz, instead of the current 20hz. Some of the features that would make it emulate a LT circuit would be next on my list. All the looks features would be nice, but if it would push this over the $200 mark, I may start to look elsewhere. And the built in SPL and RTA monitoring ability would be nice, but not worth the cost. __________________ -Ryan My CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW My CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center My CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW

02-07-06, 05:21 PM	#23 \| Link
kingsqueak Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central NJ Posts: 193	Man, slap me if I'm missing something. I see no use whatsoever for a unit purely to EQ your subwoofer. Why not a generic signal processor for the full system? Do you not have some other means of control as far as crossover already managing what is passed to your sub? Their model DEQ2496 should do the trick if they only added unbalanced in/out to make things easier. I used to run a DSP8024 for a club system, it wasn't bad, but you really don't want to do much other than some polishing up with it. The coarse adjustments really have to be done via the active crossovers first to keep things clean. Then you approach it with the actual signal path. I couldn't find the FBQ2496 you mentioned on their site.

02-07-06, 05:35 PM	#27 \| Link
Warpdrv Speaker Geek AVS CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 4,635	This would be a huge must have product, as the dinkin around to get the current bfd to work in the Home Theater application is quite lengthy.... I would suggest USB, but then Programming of such a periferral can become alot of work to get standards to be incorporated...(maybe Im wrong - I hope so) It might just be a faster solution and very easy and inexpensive for anyone with a Laptop to get a USB to Midi connector... That would save alot of time for Behringer to get this out to the public faster... Remember Midi is a standard for these guys, and Im guessing implementation would be the easiest... Don't get me wrong I prefer USB, just not sure if it would slow the process down. Warp

02-07-06, 05:38 PM	#28 \| Link
chasw98 AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Margate, FL Posts: 1,060	Must keep the ability to rack mount. The ears could be offered aftermarket for additional cost so that they would not impede list price of ~$200.00. The reason MIDI is in the BFD is because it was aimed at musicians who program a lot of electronics using Midi controls and the presets in the BFD could be changed as other setups were changing. Personally, I have soundcard to midi cables (from my wayback days) but I can see where USB would be consumer friendly. The ability to dim the display or blank it. YES! I agree with Steve Callas. A filter that is very useful for the extreme lower frequencies <10 Hz is very desirable. You have to remember that Behringer already makes a semi calibrated mic, real time digital analyzers and a lot of the other features that we are looking for all in one. It might cut into their profits. Buy a New BFD and buy a mic = 2 sales! I am surprised that no one has asked for on screen video display! If we are dreaming then dream big! Imagine watching your FR appear on your screen after shooting the room. And if we are asking for a mic input, why not ask them to dream up a way to store measurement from say 6 locations and then merge them all into one comprehensive chart! I think everything I want included has been mentioned already, but every voice helps, especially if they are listening. Chuck

02-07-06, 05:38 PM	#29 \| Link
OvalNut See ya' at Talladega Join Date: May 2004 Location: North of Atlanta Posts: 1,515	Dear Behringer, If you build it, we will come. Seriously. Tim __________________ He drove a black and white pirate ship at 190 mph. - Dale in the #3 will never be forgotten. Thanks for the memories.