Noob question on SACD...

[RangersFan]

If you have a player that supports SACD formats, do you need to output via optical? And does the receiver you are outputting to need to be SACD compatible, or is any receiver capable of decoding SACD? Thanks.

[jeffrey r]

For SACD capabilities, unless you have one of the few receiver/SACD player combos that can connect via digital cables, you cannot output via optical. You need to use the 6-channel analog cables running from the SACD player to the receiver.

And any receiver with the 6-channel analog input can accept SACD. Meaning pretty much any surround sound receiver on the market in the past 5+ years.

[Habs4life]

Hi RangersFan,No, the reciever is not capable of decoding an SACD the player must do it. The receiver will need to have a 6ch analog pass thru input and you will need 6 RCA cables to hook it up.

BTW is that NY or Texas Rangers?

[Habs4life]

oops too slow jeffery beat me to the punch.

[RangersFan]

Thanks for the quick responses guys. 6 CH Analog would be this?

Originally Posted by Habs4life

BTW is that NY or Texas Rangers?

NY

Thanks for the choke against NJ in game 82 of regular season BTW Then again we probably would have went out in 4 against Buffalo anyways

[Habs4life]

Originally Posted by RangersFan

Thanks for the quick responses guys. 6 CH Analog would be this?
NY

Thanks for the choke against NJ in game 82 of regular season BTW
Then again we probably would have went out in 4 against Buffalo anyways

:your welcome for the choke yep Sabres would have prevailed

Yes those are the inputs you need.

[ted_b]

There are a few digital links that talk SACD. If both your player and your receiver have, in order of market acceptance:
1) iLink, a firewire interface
2) DenonLink3, a proprietary all-Denon connection, hi-speed and clean, but no real advantage over iLink IMO
3) HDMI 1.1. Now here is a seemingly popular option that should work for any SACD player that converts to PCM as it sends music. However, to date only the new Oppo 970 ($150) does it, and a bug in the firmware needs 1080i to be set in order to send anything but stereo. Works out of the box for DVD-A, though, with all HDMI 1.1 player/receivers.
4) Meridian SmartLink, a three-spdif proprietary digital link that features low jitter, but requires all-Meridian, or an expensive mod board from DigitalUpgrades.

iLink is a decent one-cable solution, but what you'll be listening to is the DAC and analog stages of your receiver. When you use 6 analog outs (the most popular signal path for hirez music) you're listening to the DAC and analog stages of your player. If one is better than the other, so be it.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by ted_b

3) HDMI 1.1. Now here is a seemingly popular option that should work for any SACD player that converts to PCM as it sends music. However, to date only the new Oppo 970 ($150) does it, and a bug in the firmware needs 1080i to be set in order to send anything but stereo. Works out of the box for DVD-A, though, with all HDMI 1.1 player/receivers.

MCH SACD requires HDMI 1.2 or better (unless, as in the OPPO it converts DSD to PCM).

Kal

[ted_b]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

MCH SACD requires HDMI 1.2 or better (unless, as in the OPPO it converts DSD to PCM).

Kal

?? I said "SACD that converts to PCM". No mention of HDMI 1.2, that wasn't my point. Oh, and it doesn't much exist...and probably won't, due to the costs to convert vs. the addtl benefits. Most mfg'ers are simply waiting for HDMI 1.3 (snooze again).

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by ted_b

?? I said "SACD that converts to PCM". No mention of HDMI 1.2, that wasn't my point. Oh, and it doesn't much exist...and probably won't, due to the costs to convert vs. the addtl benefits. Most mfg'ers are simply waiting for HDMI 1.3 (snooze again).

I wans't criticizing; just adding more info.

Kal

[ted_b]

Thanks. Once again, the downside of the printed word, very little way to understand the emphasis or emotion. I apologize for the questioning.

I'm so surprised that the Oppo is the first to be reported to work as a PCM HDMI 1.1 solution. I've been soapboxing on this forum for a long time...why wouldn't any PCM-based SACD player (and there are lots of them) not work via HDMI 1.1? It seems like if it's PCM, it's PCM. Anyway, it's a band-aid approach, reportedly 88k, etc. Oh well. I'm an analog guy first and foremost. (Justification for buying a Marantz DV9600 cuz it's analog outs sound so good). :>)

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by ted_b

I'm so surprised that the Oppo is the first to be reported to work as a PCM HDMI 1.1 solution. I've been soapboxing on this forum for a long time...why wouldn't any PCM-based SACD player (and there are lots of them) not work via HDMI 1.1? It seems like if it's PCM, it's PCM. Anyway, it's a band-aid approach, reportedly 88k, etc. Oh well.

Yup. I'd buy one in a minute if I had anything to plug it into for audio.

Kal

[Duds72]

Does the sacd player have to be connected to the 6-channel inputs on the receiver for 2 channel sacd? I currently have mine going into the regular cd inputs, and have compared it to going to the F/L on the 6 channel inputs, and didt hear a difference?

Originally Posted by Habs4life

:your welcome for the choke yep Sabres would have prevailed

Yes those are the inputs you need.

[ted_b]

No, for two-channel, just use 2 cables...and use the 2 channel inputs (which are usually a little bit better quality than the front pair of the 6 channel input) assuming you have a choice.

[Duds72]

cool thanks!

Originally Posted by ted_b

No, for two-channel, just use 2 cables...and use the 2 channel inputs (which are usually a little bit better quality than the front pair of the 6 channel input) assuming you have a choice.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by Duds72

cool thanks!

Just remember to use the 2channel tracks on the SACD, not the multichannel tracks. In the latter case, you would be hearing only 2 of the 6 channels. The stereo tracks have all the signals combined into 2.

Kal

[Duds72]

Yup, I have my player set to play the stereo layer before anything else.

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

Just remember to use the 2channel tracks on the SACD, not the multichannel tracks. In the latter case, you would be hearing only 2 of the 6 channels. The stereo tracks have all the signals combined into 2.

Kal

[rothlike]

I just got my first two SACD's the other day and I love the sound, but what I want to know is am I supposed to see a menu that has more than just the tracks listed or some cool lyrics or sopmething? All I get on screen is a "generic" list of track numbers....

-- R

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by rothlike

I just got my first two SACD's the other day and I love the sound, but what I want to know is am I supposed to see a menu that has more than just the tracks listed or some cool lyrics or sopmething? All I get on screen is a "generic" list of track numbers....

There is no video on SACD. All you get is data generated by the player from the TOC of the disc.

Kal

[rothlike]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

There is no video on SACD. All you get is data generated by the player from the TOC of the disc.

Kal

Ah yes, that does make sense. I guess I was thinking of DVD-A...Thanks!

-- R

[sobiloff]

Another noob question following RangerFan's excellent question:

Let's say I take the HDMI output from my Denon DVD-1920 and input it to an HDMI input on my Denon AVR-2807:

Multi and stereo areas on SACDs will still be output via the 6-ch connectors since the AVR is only HDMI 1.1, right? So, I'll have to depend on the DVD's settings for speaker levels and delay and won't be able to take advantage of the AVR's Audyssey equalization unless I stick with the RBCD area. (At which point, why bother?)

Any and all audio on DVD-As, however, will use the HDMI connection and I'll get to use the receiver's Audyssey equalization (etc.).

That's what I get out of the following "Input Signals" chart in the receiver's manual:

DVD-Video     Linear PCM      O

              Dolby Digital   O
              
              DTS             O


DVD-Audio     Linear PCM      O
              Packed PCM
              (with CPMM/
              without CPPM)
              
              
CD            Linear PCM      O


Super Audio   Multi area      X
CD
              Stereo area     X
              
              CD area         O

If all the above is correct, then all I have to figure out is what will happen with the video signal since my TV only does component, not DVI nor HDMI (but that's a question for a different forum!).

TIA!

[Dan Hitchman]

One of the highlights of SA-CD or DVD-Audio, besides the better sound on better engineered recordings, is the multi-channel aspect.

Why would you only listen to the stereo portion, unless you only have a stereo setup? I don't know if it's still the case but on some SA-CD's the stereo high res. layer was just a re-conversion to DSD of the 16 bit PCM track made for CD's, and not a full re-mastering job like the multi-channel track. This would be because for the multi-channel mix all the original stems are re-mastered and then re-mixed. Sometimes the label would go cheap and not pay for a high res. mixdown to stereo, so they used the 16 bit CD mix.

I think on higher end labels like BIS, Telarc, Channel Classics, etc. that would not be the case, but on pop/rock labels like Sony, etc. they might pull that stunt.

Dan

[ted_b]

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman

One of the highlights of SA-CD or DVD-Audio, besides the better sound on better engineered recordings, is the multi-channel aspect.

Why would you only listen to the stereo portion, unless you only have a stereo setup? I don't know if it's still the case but on some SA-CD's the stereo high res. layer was just a re-conversion to DSD of the 16 bit PCM track made for CD's, and not a full re-mastering job like the multi-channel track. This would be because for the multi-channel mix all the original stems are re-mastered and then re-mixed. Sometimes the label would go cheap and not pay for a high res. mixdown to stereo, so they used the 16 bit CD mix.

I think on higher end labels like BIS, Telarc, Channel Classics, etc. that would not be the case, but on pop/rock labels like Sony, etc. they might pull that stunt.

Dan

The OP never said he doesn't want multichannel, nor did the previous questioner, sobiloff. The only one on this thread talking stereo-only is Duds72, and he has stereo only, supposedly. And yes...multichannel is da bomb. I have much $$ in a dedicated 5.1 system (aside from a 7.1 movie setup) and it's worth it.

Sobiloff, yes your setup is correct. But frankly, I think the advantages of Audyssey on the 2807 may be outweighed by the 2910's better signal path, analog parts and overall sound quality of coming in analog only (like you're doing SACD). YMMV. Also, that way you don't have to futz with two different bass management issues, although if your movie speaker setup is the same as your HDMI 1.1 DVD-A setup then that BM aspect is not a big deal; set up the 2910 for SACD analog, and the 2807 for all else. I guess the other tradeoff you need to consider is this: is the player's speaker setup menu and options (channel trims, distance, size) more flexible and granular and more effective than the same on the receiver. This may make up your mind as to which to choose for DVD-A signal path. Most just choose HDMI 1.1 cuz it's a one cable solution, but not if you already have invested in 6 analog cables for SACD.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by ted_b

Most just choose HDMI 1.1 cuz it's a one cable solution, but not if you already have invested in 6 analog cables for SACD.

And/or if you run the HDMI directly to the display.

Kal

[sobiloff]

Originally Posted by ted_b

Sobiloff, yes your setup is correct. But frankly, I think the advantages of Audyssey on the 2807 may be outweighed by the 2910's better signal path, analog parts and overall sound quality of coming in analog only (like you're doing SACD). YMMV.

I wish I had a DVD-2910--I only have a DVD-1920, and the DVD-1920's speaker management is less flexible than my AVR-2807's. That, plus the Audyssey EQ got me wondering how I could get DVD-A out digitally to the AVR-2807 to take advantage of its better capabilities.

However, looking at the specs, my DVD-1920 uses a Burr-Brown PCM-1738 while my AVR-2807 uses an Analog Devices AD-1835. I don't know how these two compare in terms of the quality of their audio processing, but the receiver certainly has more speaker control than the DVD player does.

Originally Posted by ted_b

Most just choose HDMI 1.1 cuz it's a one cable solution, but not if you already have invested in 6 analog cables for SACD.

Well, my analog cables are three of the cheapest Radio Shack RCA interconnects at the moment, since I wasn't sure if I was going to find value in SACD or DVD-A, so no big cable investment for me. Even with my junky speakers (Sony cubes), though, I'm finding that I enjoy the surround music I've bought and would like to get my system setup to take advantage of the best capabilities present in it.

If I can successfully output DVD-A digitally to my receiver and have the receiver do the processing then I'll definitely prefer DVD-A to SACD. (That's just a judgement based on my equipment's particular capabilities, though.)

Thanks for the answers, ted_b!

[Duds72]

That is correct, I have a stereo only setup.

[quote=ted_b]The OP never said he doesn't want multichannel, nor did the previous questioner, sobiloff. The only one on this thread talking stereo-only is Duds72, and he has stereo only, supposedly. And yes...multichannel is da bomb. I have much $$ in a dedicated 5.1 system (aside from a 7.1 movie setup) and it's worth it.

[Ovation]

Originally Posted by ted_b

No, for two-channel, just use 2 cables...and use the 2 channel inputs (which are usually a little bit better quality than the front pair of the 6 channel input) assuming you have a choice.

Take the time to be sure, as otherwise you may only be getting redbook CD rather than SACD in two channel mode. My universal player (Marantz DV6400) ONLY outputs hi-res from the MCH output (about the only complaint I have regarding my player's audio performance). The two channel output is limited to CD and downmixed DD/DTS output. Fortunately, my owner's manual pointed this out (though I just assumed the 2 channel output would output 2 channel SACD and I spent an hour trying to figure out why I was getting no sound from any SACD--almost brought the thing back until I clued in).

[ted_b]

My apologies to Ovation in advance. :>)

I'd never seen a universal player where the 2 channel outputs were not part of the high resolution signal path. And typically they are situated right next to the 5.1 outputs on the back panel. And Marantz, of all folks, would be one of the last places I would suspect this weird oversight to occur. But sure enough, after Ovation's response I had to go download the DV6400 manaul...and there it is.....2 channel outputs do not output SACD. And are way over on the other side of the deck. WOW. What a mess. To listen to 2 channel SACD or DVD-A one needs to pick a different input on his/her pre/pro, the same input as 5.1, and hope he/she hasn't deafualted to multichannel (or you'll hear only the front two channels and have major parts of the music missing). I'd still be tempted to do redbook via 2 channel only, but now wonder what the better signal path really is.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by ted_b

My apologies to Ovation in advance. :>)

I'd never seen a universal player where the 2 channel outputs were not part of the high resolution signal path. And typically they are situated right next to the 5.1 outputs on the back panel. And Marantz, of all folks, would be one of the last places I would suspect this weird oversight to occur. But sure enough, after Ovation's response I had to go download the DV6400 manaul...and there it is.....2 channel outputs do not output SACD. And are way over on the other side of the deck. WOW. What a mess. To listen to 2 channel SACD or DVD-A one needs to pick a different input on his/her pre/pro, the same input as 5.1, and hope he/she hasn't deafualted to multichannel (or you'll hear only the front two channels and have major parts of the music missing). I'd still be tempted to do redbook via 2 channel only, but now wonder what the better signal path really is.

This is not any more silly than the Sony XA-777ES which doesn't put out anything on the stereo L/R outputs with multichannel SACD or anything on the L/R jacks of the MCH set with a stereo source. It requires one to connect both sets to separate inputs on the pre/pro.

Kal

[ted_b]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

This is not any more silly than the Sony XA-777ES which doesn't put out anything on the stereo L/R outputs with multichannel SACD or anything on the L/R jacks of the MCH set with a stereo source. It requires one to connect both sets to separate inputs on the pre/pro.

Kal

True. I had that deck and simply knew that the stereo output (i.e input "n" on the stereo pre) was stereo, period. The mch stuff went through my TA-P9000ES (for sale, BTW) and eventually to the HT bypass on my stereo pre.

Ah...standards...and so many to choose from.....