Telarc's 1812 Overture: DVD-A or SACD?

[Norgoth]

My Marantz dv9600 player handles both DVD-A and SACD. Telarc is selling the 1812 Overture in both formats. Which should I buy with respect to audio quality please? I have my player set to analog and/or digital out.

Thanks in advance.

[oztech]

i only have it in sacd can not do an a b but i will tell
you this much watch the volume the cannons are
abrupt could damage speakers at high volume.

[Kal Rubinson]

Either. I've heard rumors that the DVD-A was superior but I don't think there's much to choose between them and I have both. I tend to use the SACD most but primarily for the test tracks.

Kal

[Dan Hitchman]

If it's the newer 1812 Overture (Telarc had 2 from Kunzel) then get the SA-CD as it's a DSD recording. If it had been a PCM recording I would have chosen the DVD-Audio disc.

Dan

[mgfred]

Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman

If it's the newer 1812 Overture (Telarc had 2 from Kunzel) then get the SA-CD as it's a DSD recording. If it had been a PCM recording I would have chosen the DVD-Audio disc.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

I just double checked my SACD of the War of 1812 and it's the DSD version.

The big problem with this SACD is that a lot of receivers don't have the power to properly reproduce the cannon shots and start clipping. That's what kills the speakers. Fortunately I have a Pioneer VSX-59TXi and can listen to it at a loud levels, but not so loud that they would hurt my hearing.

It's funny I have an older CD version of 1812 with real cannons (DG not Telarc) that blows the fuses in my Ohm F speakers in my vintage stereo room because of clipping. The amp pushes out 340 watts per channel, which would be normally be enough. However Ohm Fs though suck up every watt of it.....

Fred

[CAVX]

The following long and for that I apologize in advance...

I just recently got the SACD of this and whilst I love it, I do have a question (or more) about the LFE track.

I have my system set with all speakers set to small, sub woofer (twin Peerless XLS) is on. It is then calibrated to +75dB per channel (Master Volume at 00dB) using the internal test generator and an SPL meter set to C and Slow.

My SW trim is at -10dB and the plate amp volume is about 11o'clock and it produces a nice 79dB with the sub test tone. The meter ranges from about 77 to 81 and the research I did suggested that when using a SPL meter to set the SW, that the level should be set to about 4dB more than a main channel.

The EXT IN trims adjust themselves to the same (they are only in 1dB increments, not 0.5dB like the main trims), so with the SW at -10dB, I have 20dB range to increase the SW for the EXT IN (-10dB to +10dB).

I have found that there is 10dB difference between SACD and DVD-A due the to way the LFE track is stored on the DVD-A (SACD doesn't actually have a band limited LFE track?) and and when using the bass management of the player, there is a total of 15dB reduction (this was nicely explained by KMO with his sticky in the theory forum) to prevent input overload of the AVR. So I manually increase the SW trim on the EXT IN from -10dB to -5dB for SACD and further increase it to +5dB for the DVD-A, and it all sounds quite good so far.

Back to the 1812. With the trim set back to -5dB was ready for some thump. I read the warning about DSD Cannons etc and played the track quite low at first.

Whilst it was impressive, it lacked the KA-THUMP I had read so much hype about.

I found that tracks 8 - 13 contains test material and noticed that the LFE was recorded very low.

So being a little game, I increased it by 5dB at first, then by another 5dB soon after. So with the setting now the same as the DVD-A setting, these cannons now shake the room (literally), but why is the level so low for this format? Is this correct? Why does this only apply to this SACD, where the rest I have sound too boomy at anything higher than the -5dB setting?

Mark

[KMO]

This recording does not use the LFE track. (It's a great example of exactly how unnecessary the LFE track is for music - if this doesn't need it, nothing does.)

Are you sure you need a 10dB difference in receiver calibration between SACD and DVD-Audio? I'd normally expect a universal player to attenuate its SW/LFE output from SACD by 10dB to match DVD-V/DVD-A.

To explain in numbers, this is what I'd expect a player to do from its multichannel analogue outputs, with bass redirection enabled:

For CD, SW out = Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)
For DVD-V/A, SW out = Lower5dB(RecordedLFE) + Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)
For SACD, SW out = Lower15dB(RecordedLFE) + Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)

If it does that, then SW IN always needs a 15dB boost in the receiver, to get the redirected bass right, and that gives the necessary 10dB uplift to the LFE track on DVD:

For CD, resulting SW output = RedirectedBass
For DVD-V/A, resulting SW output = Raise10dB(RecordedLFE) + RedirectedBass
For SACD, resulting SW output = RecordedLFE + RedirectedBass

So I would have expected +5dB on the SW EXT IN to be correct for both formats. What are the discs you've found +5dB to be too boomy for? It can't be anything wrong with the LFE level on this recording, because it isn't used, except for the test tones. And if other recordings had an error, I'd expect their LFE to be too low (mistakenly expecting a 10dB boost) - this happened on one Norah Jones SACD.

[CAVX]

Thank you for your prompt response...

Originally Posted by KMO

This recording does not use the LFE track. (It's a great example of exactly how unnecessary the LFE track is for music - if this doesn't need it, nothing does.)

Really? So why does it offer test tracks including LFE (a childs voice says LFE channel)? When I heard the stereo cannons I simply put it down to the fact that allot of the noise is above the 80Hz (I think my player uses 100Hz) crossover, so the higher frequencies would give localization, but the KA-THUMP would contain LFE...

Now for the record, I am not bass hungry thump head any more. I cured myself of that when I got into DTS CD in 1998. I had bought both the 2CH CD and the DTS 5.1 CD of TITANIC soundtrack and learned that the way I had set my subwoofers up at the time was very wrong. Initially, it took me some time to adjust, but soon after, I began hearing (and appreciating) the recording for what it actually contained, not some pre conceived idea of what I thought it should have - but maybe I've gone back a setup here with these cannons...

It's not entirely my fault, I used to hang out with those car sound guys and used to think it was cool when the SPL meter pegged at 126dB

Are you sure you need a 10dB difference in receiver calibration between SACD and DVD-Audio? I'd normally expect a universal player to attenuate its SW/LFE output from SACD by 10dB to match DVD-V/DVD-A.

My method to determine the DVD-A setting of +15dB (-10 + 15 = +5) over the main SW level was to play a dual disc with DD only (I also tried this later with a few different motion picture soundtracks as well and came to the same conclusion), and switch between the digital in and the EXT IN and listen closely. I was surprized that it had to go that high. Then, having a listen to a few DVD-As that I have, suddenly WOW there it was that clean magic bass I was looking for.

SACD on the other hand just boomed (dull, thick and muddy) anything higher than -7, so given that +5 was chosen for DVD-A and that I had already read several times about the 10dB difference, I simply decided to set SACD SW at -5dB. And again, it sounds good to my ears...

To explain in numbers, this is what I'd expect a player to do from its multichannel analogue outputs, with bass redirection enabled:

For CD, SW out = Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)
For DVD-V/A, SW out = Lower5dB(RecordedLFE) + Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)
For SACD, SW out = Lower15dB(RecordedLFE) + Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)

If it does that, then SW IN always needs a 15dB boost in the receiver, to get the redirected bass right, and that gives the necessary 10dB uplift to the LFE track on DVD:

For CD, resulting SW output = RedirectedBass
For DVD-V/A, resulting SW output = Raise10dB(RecordedLFE) + RedirectedBass
For SACD, resulting SW output = RecordedLFE + RedirectedBass

So I would have expected +5dB on the SW EXT IN to be correct for both formats. What are the discs you've found +5dB to be too boomy for? It can't be anything wrong with the LFE level on this recording, because it isn't used, except for the test tones. And if other recordings had an error, I'd expect their LFE to be too low (mistakenly expecting a 10dB boost) - this happened on one Norah Jones SACD.

My collection is not that great, so I can basically list everything here -

Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon (SACD) just sounds wrong with the EXT IN sub trim any higher than -5dB. I also have the down loaded "Original Quad Mix" (DVD-A) which (the heart beat) needs the SW trim at +5 to sound as loud as the SACD at -5dB.

Celine Dion - A New Day (SACD). Like her or loath her, this is (IMO) how modern music should sound. It is clean, spacious and punchy without boom at -5dB on my system, but delivers some deep, loud, clean low bass that, prior to these formats, would require turning up the sub too loud. I often demo this disc for visitors (and not because I don't want them to come back)

Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms (SACD). WOW what a mix!!! But again, -5 on the SW EXT IN trim.

War Of The Worlds (SACD). Not bad. When I first heard this, I did not know about (or even that I could) adjusting the SW trims for EXT IN. There was enough bass for me to be satisfied with a recording of this age. Once I learned about the SW trim, so much better...

1812 Overture (SACD). Love this, but at the same -5 trim level, I hear mostly the bang (above the crossover) and not too much thump below the crossover. At +5, I can actually feel the blast. I can also play this at -20dB (-20dB is loud in my unit for CD playback and i play most CDs at -25dB) and the KA-THUMP just puts a grin on my face. I tried turning the trim down and found that it lost that thump below -10. There is no distortion at +5, it just moves air that you can feel. But this is the only recording on SACD that I have that I have identified this problems with.

All of my DVD-As (not many of them either) sound awesome at EXT IN SW at +5...

Seal - Greatest Hits (DVD-A) - sounds sweet at +5.

Bon Jovi - Slippery When Wet and Have A Nice Day (both DVD-A on Dual Disc). Both of these need to be at +5.

Pink Floyd - already discussed above.

Brintey Spears - Into The Zone (DVD-A) Don't say a word Besides it sounds like a Madonna album anyway.

Carl Off - Carmena Burana (DVD-A). I should just give this away. Do not enjoy this regardless of the subwoofer trim level...

The rest of my MC titles are either DTS CD or Dual Disc with DD only so generally play (have to play all DTS) through the digital IN...

Mark

PS My HR player is the Samsung HD 950.

PPS I forgot Linkin Park Re-Animated DVD-A - very cool and plays very loud...

[pbarach]

Most Telarc classical recordings that I have heard are recorded well and have better than average musical performances, but not this one.

The orchestral performance is new, along with the other elements on the disc, but it is one of the most boring performances of the 1812 that I've ever heard. The cannons etc. are nice for showing off your low-frequency response (I've heard the SACD version), but so are dozens of scenes from good movies.

I enjoy good audio quality, but I don't see the point of using poor performances to show off your equipment when there are so many better ones. For example, there is a well-recorded recent issue on EMI, conducted by Pappano. There is an analog recording by Haitink/Concertgebouw, widely available on discount CD's, also very good (but no cannons).

[KMO]

Originally Posted by CAVX

So why does it offer test tracks including LFE (a childs voice says LFE channel)?

Because they're test tracks. Just because they don't use the LFE in their own recordings is no reason to omit the LFE from the test sequence. (I'm pretty sure the cover notes should explain this - my Telarc sampler disc with test tones does.)

Thanks for the thorough notes. I think there's enough there to formulate an answer. I have a suspicion that your Samsung player is fluffing up its bass management. I think it's doing:

DVD-A: SW out = Lower5dB(RecordedLFE) + Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)
SACD: SW out = Lower5dB(RecordedLFE) + Lower15dB(RedirectedBass)

Both the same. Wrong . The balance of LFE and redirected bass is incorrect for SACD, and you can't fix it.

For DVD-A, raising SW by 15dB gives you the right result always:

DVD-A result = Raise10dB(RecordedLFE) + RedirectedBass

But for SACD, if you raise SW by 5dB, you get:

SACD result = RecordedLFE + Lower10dB(RedirectedBass)

which will sound roughly right if the disc was bass-managed at source, and all its bass is in the LFE track. But any bass in the mains will be too weak.

If you raise SACD SW by 15dB, you get:

SACD result = Raise10dB(RecordedLFE) + RedirectedBass

which will be correct if LFE isn't used (as on the Telarc disc), but will be too boomy if there is normal bass in the LFE.

[CAVX]

Both the same. Wrong . The balance of LFE and redirected bass is incorrect for SACD, and you can't fix it.

Sounds about right

Thanks for your responses though...

EDIT: None of this would really have mattered if the EXT INs were processed by the bass management of the system. That way I could have set all channels to large + sub in the player...

Mark

[jcpom]

I have Telarc and CBS 1812 recordings, but this Mercury Living Presence CD is the finest recording I've ever heard, despite being 50 years old:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=glance&n=5174

The bronze cannons used in this recording are the real thing and can truly be "felt" coming thru my 18" Velo sub positioned between powered 8" dual woofers in my floorstanding stereo speakers!

[pbarach]

Originally Posted by jcpom

I have Telarc and CBS 1812 recordings, but this Mercury Living Presence CD is the finest recording I've ever heard, despite being 50 years old:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=glance&n=5174

The brass cannons used in this recording are the real thing and can truly be "felt" coming thru my 18" Velo sub positioned between powered 8" dual woofers in my floorstanding stereo speakers!

The orchestral performance is WAY better than that on the Telarc. However, it was recorded in a very dry auditorium, like all of the Minneapolis recordings were in those days. I haven't heard this recording since the LP days, but I am certain that it's better Tchakovsky than Kunzel's dull run-through.

[Dr. AIX]

I was interested to see a post here that said there is no need for the LFE channel in music reproduction...unless for the cannons of the 1812. As the owner of a small audiophile label [AIX Records] and the engineer responsible for mixing all of our tracks in 5.1 ["stage" and "Audience" mixes], I endorse the use of the LFE into a properly aligned subwoofer. I mix into 5 B&W 801 IIIs and have a TMH "Profunder" Sub woofer with 2-18" drivers and 500 watts of power. When mixing, I do not bass manage the main channels...but I do direct some of the lowest frequencies to the "boom" channel or LFE. It makes a difference to the overall sound even with full range speakers all around. I know other engineers avoid it...but I've found that there is a benefit and use is on all of my releases.

Just my two cents.

[gohd]

Originally Posted by CAVX

Whilst it was impressive, it lacked the KA-THUMP I had read so much hype about.

Without being technical, I felt the same. I didn't really care to tinker with my setup to get it to "boom", so I chalked it up to being more hyped about being "loud" rather than "low." I've always been curious to see it in a waterfall chart to confirm though.

Sorry. At work, so can't remember what SACD version I have (believe it's Telarc though).

[CAVX]

Having identified the problem, is it loud (and quite deep) trust me

Mark

[Jack Keck]

Originally Posted by CAVX

Having identified the problem, is it loud (and quite deep) trust me

Mark

Somehow I'm sure I missed it, but what was the problemand how did you fix it.

Please forgive my being too lazy to review the thread.

[donricouga]

Since the telerc version hasn't been too highly rated I'd like advice on other recordings of the 1812 overture and have found

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4171
and this one
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3109

Anyone have experience with these titles or can recommend others. I'm open to DVD-A as well. Multi-channel preferred. Links would be much appreciated. Thanks