Chosing a remote (Harmony vs Universal)

[jadeonly]

I'm moving a budding remote control discussion from my theater thread to this area. That thread lists my equipment, but I will also be adding a media PC (probably Windows MCE) and PVR.

I've recently completed my home theater and am ready to purchase a universal remote. Here's what I want:

• I need my wife to be able to use the system, from watching a DVD to showing photos of the PC without me being there. No cheat sheets, no complex steps, just an activity based remote with obvious descriptions.

• PC programmable. I don't mind making macros or other complex programming (I'm a software programmer by day), but I want to be able to do it from a computer UI.

• Rechargable battery is nice, but not a requirement.

• Must be IR.

• $200 CDN ish is my price range. I'm more concerned about usability than price and appreciate details like customizable LCD descriptions, "Watch DVD" instead of "DVD", "Turn system off" instead of "Pwr Dwn", etc.

So after reading reviews and forum posts I was ready to go to a local store and pay $199 CDN for a Harmony 880. Then I read this reply in my thread:

Originally Posted by osiris13

Having programmed 100+ MX remotes and about 10 Harmony's, there is very good reason why the universals cost more. I've never been able to get a Harmony to control a system as seamlessly as an MX-series URC remote.

Experience from both sides is valuable, so please osiris13, can you be more specific?

[decktard]

I'm not sure what MX you'd be pushed to... but the MX-700 sure looks neat.

I do have a harmony 880 and love it. There are a couple downsides but over all it is minor. I had no problems setting up "Watch TV" and "Watch DVD" buttons and I have a reasonably complex setup. I have nothing, however; to control my lights. Looking at some of the Lutron offerings I wouldn't imagine there would be an issue with the harmony doing this either.

Downsides to consider with the Harmony:

1) LCD Screen is difficult to organize. Items are grouped by devices. I've been petitioning Harmony to change this... I don't get the indication this is a technical issue
2) Hard to navigate by touch. I'm getting used to it but the buttons are close together and smooth.

Other than those minor things I love it. If they fix my #1 I would really never feel the need to see if there is another remote. Also, the 880 can be obtained well below its MSRP.

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by decktard

LCD Screen is difficult to organize. Items are grouped by devices. I've been petitioning Harmony to change this... I don't get the indication this is a technical issue

Are you referring to the LCD screen after you've navigated "in to" a device or activity? I assume and require that the main activity screen is completely customizable (other than some icon issues I've read about). Can you be a bit more specific about the problem, like is it the order of the items, or the wording, etc.

Thanks

[Jim Audio]

The MX-700 is a great remote, but for the most part has been replaced by the MX-850 which has better feel to the cursor controls in the center of the remote and has much better backlighting. It also offers the opportunity to upgrade to RF control if need be.

I have programmed hundreds of MX remotes and these remotes are a great choice for many applications.

I have nothing against the Harmony's. They work well, they're a great idea, but I've recently gotten new clients whose previous installers had chosen Harmony remotes that were insufficient (although they look neat) for the type of control the clients were after. We replaced these with MX-850 and MX-900 models. Happy clients.

[decktard]

Originally Posted by jadeonly

Are you referring to the LCD screen after you've navigated "in to" a device or activity? I assume and require that the main activity screen is completely customizable (other than some icon issues I've read about). Can you be a bit more specific about the problem, like is it the order of the items, or the wording, etc.

Thanks

Yeah... you can order your activities any way you want (watch tv, dvd, etc). I'm talking about the ordering of the LCD buttons for the current menu (for example the watch tv menu).

So you have 8 total options that can go on a screen. You can have multiple pages of screens for that activity. If I want 10 options for my PVR listed and I want 2 options for my TV listed and 1 option for my reciver listed it is very hard to order those. My PVR options would all have to be listed together so there really isn't a way for me to chose to have 5 PVR options, 2 TV options, and 1 Receiver option on the first page and have the remaining 5 PVR options on the second page.

Now you *might* be able to work around this if you list the same device multiple times in the setup or custom program your own device that consists of functions from the PVR, TV, and receiver.

I'm pleased with how I have it set up now but I'm too lazy to program it like I mentioned in the previous paragraph. In the end it is something that Logitech could easily give users the ability to do but have chosen not to for some reason...

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by Jim Audio

I have nothing against the Harmony's. They work well, they're a great idea, but I've recently gotten new clients whose previous installers had chosen Harmony remotes that were insufficient (although they look neat) for the type of control the clients were after. We replaced these with MX-850 and MX-900 models. Happy clients.

Can you elaborate on in what ways the Harmony remotes were insufficient?

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by decktard

So you have 8 total options that can go on a screen. You can have multiple pages of screens for that activity. If I want 10 options for my PVR listed and I want 2 options for my TV listed and 1 option for my reciver listed it is very hard to order those. My PVR options would all have to be listed together so there really isn't a way for me to chose to have 5 PVR options, 2 TV options, and 1 Receiver option on the first page and have the remaining 5 PVR options on the second page.

Gotcha, thanks. But sorting aside, it's no problem to have, say, my house lights as soft buttons on the "Watch DVD"activity page?

[decktard]

Originally Posted by jadeonly

Gotcha, thanks. But sorting aside, it's no problem to have, say, my house lights as soft buttons on the "Watch DVD"activity page?

Shouldn't be.

[NickKO]

I program a lot of MX850's and I really like them, but you don't get much space on the LCD to put things such as "Watch DVD", etc..... You have to do something like CABLE, DVD, OFF, etc.... short names. Move up in their line and the LCD's have a little more space, or go to a touchscreen model (either with Universal or marantz/phillips pronto) and then you can make the screen say/look however you want.

[Wire Monkey]

Another remote line to look at is RTI..this is a dealer only line but they work and are very customizable. the T2+ is a great remote add on a RP-1 or RP-6 and you have the ability to use RF that actually works.

rticorp

the T3 is awsome and they also have a U1 that is waterproof for the shower or pool or hot tub

We used to sell the URC line but after seeing so much of it on ebay and people calling us for help with remotes they didnt buy from us got old...not to mention the Crap ass MRF-200, MRF-250 and MRF300 I wish we were Real system stuff they keep pushing. We had so many issues with bad product we had to quit selling it

also look at the Nevo SL at mynevo

[conrad711]

Originally Posted by Wire Monkey

We used to sell the URC line but after seeing so much of it on ebay and people calling us for help with remotes they didnt buy from us got old...not to mention the Crap ass MRF-200, MRF-250 and MRF300 I wish we were Real system stuff they keep pushing. We had so many issues with bad product we had to quit selling it

also look at the Nevo SL at mynevo

What kind of problems are people having with the MRF-200, 250, 300?

I was just about to buy an MX-850 with the MRF-250. Should I think about the Harmony 890 instead?

[Glackowitz]

I think what monkey was refering too was the Poor RF perfomance on the MX3000 with a MRF 250 or 300 unit, we have had similar issues when combining the 2

The MX850 and MRF should be fine

www.surfremotecontrol.com and talk with Mike

http://www.surfremotecontrol.com/store/mx-850rfs.html

[MikeB1973]

I've used the Univerals quite a bit and love the complete control you have over the inteface, macros, etc.

That being said, I purchased a Harmony 880 when they first came out, took an hour to set it up, and it's been 90% functional since then.

I went through a couple defective remotes with their RMA department, but finally have a good working one.

Now I'm trying to customize my remote to get that remaining 10% done, and am completely frustrated. You can't setup a macro within an activity. I've tried using duplicate devices to simulate a macro, but if the software sees a duplicate command, it removes the button. Like another poster said, you also cannot arrange the LCD buttons within the activity - it arranges them as it sees fit.

They also have a bug in their software, so you CANNOT customize your MediaCenter commands until they fix it. Since their software is web-based only, you have 0 options other than waiting it out.

I think that, assuming their software is working correctly and bug-free (which it's not right now), their remotes are great for the casual user who wants a lot of simplification without a lot of work. They're also OK for a more advanced user who doesn't mind living without certain functionality because of the limitations of the remote.

If you're like me and want things to look and work exactly how you envision them, however, look elsewhere.

Good luck!

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by NickKO

I program a lot of MX850's and I really like them, but you don't get much space on the LCD to put things such as "Watch DVD", etc..... You have to do something like CABLE, DVD, OFF, etc.... short names. Move up in their line and the LCD's have a little more space, or go to a touchscreen model (either with Universal or marantz/phillips pronto) and then you can make the screen say/look however you want.

Do you have any other complaints about the MX programming? Have you used them with a Media Center PC?

Thanks

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by Mike Boulanger

They also have a bug in their software, so you CANNOT customize your MediaCenter commands until they fix it.

Now that's certainly a reason for me to think twice. Do you have any examples of specific things you'd like your Harmony to do with your Media PC but can't programm at this time?

[MikeB1973]

You basically can't assign any custom buttons or commands. They said they released an updated on 7/10 that caused this issue, and they are not scheduled to fix it until early August. Absolutely unacceptable, in my opinion, since they give you no other method to program your remote.

For example, I want to add x10 lighting controls to all of my Activities. I want them to display on the first page of the LCD once I get into the Activity. Since they don't allow you to arrange the commands at all (which I think is stupid), I basically am going to delete unused commands from the LCD so I can fit my lighting controls.

Can't do it on any Activity which uses my MediaCenter (Watch TV, Watch DVD, Listen To Music, or Watch Videos) because of the bug.

I also want to reassign the function of the + key. Can't do it becuase of the bug.

Here's a post on Logitech's forum about it:

Logitech

You can ADD the MediaCenter PC and create an activity, the bug shows when you try to customize anything to do with it.

I can't believe more people aren't complaining about it (MediaCenters mustn't be popular enough), and I think it shows a huge flaw in their method of programming (web-only).

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by Mike Boulanger

For example, I want to add x10 lighting controls to all of my Activities. I want them to display on the first page of the LCD once I get into the Activity. Since they don't allow you to arrange the commands at all (which I think is stupid), I basically am going to delete unused commands from the LCD so I can fit my lighting controls.

Can't do it on any Activity which uses my MediaCenter (Watch TV, Watch DVD, Listen To Music, or Watch Videos) because of the bug.

I also want to reassign the function of the + key. Can't do it becuase of the bug.

Thanks Mike, that's exactly something I want to do as well (except my light control is Lutron). If I could design my own remote I'd have dedicated hard buttons for lights on/up and lights off/down.

[MikeB1973]

I was thinking about that - maybe a rocker switch or 2 on the sides of the remote.

[conrad711]

Does anyone have an opinion about the simplicity of programming a Universal remote versus the Harmony remotes?

I had a local Universal dealer tell me that the Harmony remotes were more designed for consumer programming and that I would have to pay them $250 to program an MX-800 because I probably wouldn't be able to do it.

[Glackowitz]

Originally Posted by conrad711

Does anyone have an opinion about the simplicity of programming a Universal remote versus the Harmony remotes?

I had a local Universal dealer tell me that the Harmony remotes were more designed for consumer programming and that I would have to pay them $250 to program an MX-800 because I probably wouldn't be able to do it.

goto www.universalremote.com and load the software, then play with it to see if it is easy or not, the current model is a MX850

that software is availble there as well

Here is a better link to the software
http://www.universalremote.com/products/downloads.php

also goto www.remotecentral.com then one there goto the universal remote section, there you will beable to find out more on the remote

[MikeSRC]

In addition to downloading the software, also download the Programming Manual (not the owner's manual) for the MX-800. You can program the enitre remote without having it, so it's a great, no-cost way to see if it's something you want to tackle.

[AdilM]

The dealer ,if he is in anyway qualified, should be able to do a better job. If you enjoy programming your remote or the money is a big deal, you should give it a shot yourself.
That's my beef with Harmony remotes is that they are too simple for people who frequent this forum. They only get 90% of the way there. In fact I thin kthey take longer to program than other models if they can be programmed at all b/c of the web interface.
However, if you are one of the lucky ones or not very picky it might just be all you need.

[conrad711]

Thanks for the replies Glackowitz, MikeSRC and AdilM.

I will check out the software and see how it goes.

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by Glackowitz

goto www.universalremote.com and load the software, then play with it to see if it is easy or not, the current model is a MX850

I like it. I like it a lot. As a programmer this UI feels a lot more powerful than the wizard-heavy Harmony software. I can see how it's not suitable for the average joe, but arguably neither is this forum

My Panasonic 900u isn't in the device list, but a quick Google search revealed this: http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...700&db=devices

Just one question, does the MX know what's already on? Like if I've been "Watching a DVD" activity and switch to "Media PC" activity then processor/amp and projector are already on, don't try to turn them on. That is a major selling point of the Harmony.

[jadeonly]

Or maybe the activities will just never turn anything on and the procedure will just be to use the system on and off buttons. After all, devices like media PCs and DVRs are never turned off.

Well Universal, making your software available like that may have made you a sale...

OK next question, anyone want to sell me an MX-850? Time to start searching and see if I can find one for a low enough price vs. the $99 CDN "90% good enough" Harmony 520.

[Sean Nelson]

Originally Posted by jadeonly

Just one question, does the MX know what's already on? Like if I've been "Watching a DVD" activity and switch to "Media PC" activity then processor/amp and projector are already on, don't try to turn them on. That is a major selling point of the Harmony.

This issue is usually handled by using "discrete" power on and off codes. Most decent A/V equipment will recognize three separate IR codes for switching the power:

• A "power toggle" code that turns the power on if it's off or off if it's on. This is the code that's sent by the "Power" button on the standard remote

• A "power off" code. This turns the power off if it's on and doesn't do anything if it's off already.

• A "power on" code, that only ever turns the power on.

[MikeSRC]

Originally Posted by jadeonly

My Panasonic 900u isn't in the device list, but a quick Google search revealed this: http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...700&db=devices

I have a file for the AE900u I can send you if you need one. It's just commands learned from the AE900 remote.

Just one question, does the MX know what's already on? Like if I've been "Watching a DVD" activity and switch to "Media PC" activity then processor/amp and projector are already on, don't try to turn them on. That is a major selling point of the Harmony.

Currently, only the MX-3000 and 950 can do that with a programming feature known as "Variables". This feature will be added to the MX-900 in the future as well. As mentioned above, discrete commands are the best way to avoid problems with losing track of the on/off status of a component, as the remote doesn't know if someone's turned the component off by hand or using the original remote. Harmonys use discretes where they're available.

[jadeonly]

Originally Posted by MikeSRC

I have a file for the AE900u I can send you if you need one. It's just commands learned from the AE900 remote.

Thanks. What I meant by that link was that I had found it there. Without an actual remote I can't test it, but it seemed to show the proper commands in the programming application. Also, with the popularity of the 900u and the MX series, I'm confident there is a community of people like yourself that will be able to help me.

Originally Posted by MikeSRC

Currently, only the MX-3000 and 950 can do that with a programming feature known as "Variables". This feature will be added to the MX-900 in the future as well. As mentioned above, discrete commands are the best way to avoid problems with losing track of the on/off status of a component, as the remote doesn't know if someone's turned the component off by hand or using the original remote. Harmonys use discretes where they're available.

I think I'm just going to manage it by removing power control from the activity macros altogether and using a system-wide on/off.

[jadeonly]

So I purchased a Harmony 520 on the way home from work yesterday to give it a try.

You tried to warn me, but in my defence I have to say it's hard to appreciate just how frustrating the Harmony software is until you've actually used it in a real situation.

Maybe I should stick with the MX-500 that came with my A/V processor and just print labels "Watch DVD" and "Media PC" to stick over "M1" and "M2".

[jadeonly]

I think I'll be able to live with the 520. I hate the software, but I've got it doing pretty much everything I want. I'm not satisfied with the physical build quality, the software, the LCD order customization, or the outstanding Media PC button customization bug. But, it looks nice, was relatively cheap, does what I need the most, and, most importantly, passed the wife tests.