SIR-T165 and Mits 1100/2000 DVHS

dc10forlife · 07-19-06, 01:14 PM

I'm having some problems with the SIR-T165 paired with a Mits DVHS deck. The crux of the problem is that 5c "copy once" programming I have recorded onto DVHS tape is not playing back through the SIR-T165.

Based upon my reasearch here there are two possibilities: the SIR-T165 is not 5c compliant or it is unable to decode the recordings. This contradicts what others have posted on the SIR-T165.

My setup is the following:

1 MITS 1100u connected via firewire to a Toshiba 42HP95 (w/ cablecard) and a Toshiba Symbio AVHD

1 MITS 2000 connected via firewire to the SIR-T165 which is connected via component cables to a Sony HDTV that does not have firewire.

I also have a SA 3250HD w/ firewire which I have made recordings off of.

So far, all recordings I have made off of the 42HP95 and the 3250HD playback fine from the 1100u and 2000u to the 42HP95. 5c "copy freely" programming plays back fine from the MITS 2000 through the SIR-T165 to the Sony.

I have made the following recordings to test everything out:

ABC HD from the SIR-T165 to the MITS 2000 -- plays back fine on both setups
ESPNHD (5c copy once) from the 3250 to MITS 2000 -- plays back only through the Toshiba, does not playback through the SIR-T165
NBC HD archived from the Symbio (originally from the 42HP95) to the MITS 1100 -- plays back fine on both setups
HDNET/HBO HD (5c copy once) from the 42HP95 cablecard to the MITS 1100 -- plays back only through the Toshiba, does not play back through the SIR-T165

This leads me to believe that the SIR-T165 is not capable of outputting 5c copy once material. I have tried a copuple of different firmware versions to no success.

My question is, should I just give up and buy a used JVC DCHS deck for use with the Sony, or should I keep trying with the SIR-T165? I suppose I should just get rid of the SIR-T165 since I can already record OTA HD. Any help would be appreciated.

locomo · 07-26-06, 12:25 PM

I received the SIR-165 recently but haven't played with it much.
Seems to not like to play tapes very well, that weren't recored thru it.
I also had the same problem(i.e. copy once tapes) with the LG receiver/recorder,
and got rid of it.
Later someone posted a fix, so you might want to search the archives.

VideoGrabber · 07-30-06, 01:51 AM

> This leads me to believe that the SIR-T165 is not capable of outputting 5c copy once material. <

Does your Sony HDTV support DVI input? Have you tried DVI out from the SIR-T165 to the Sony?

The reason I ask is because 5c-once protection can be maintained over DVI+HDCP, but not over analog component video. I suspect the Sammy may be inhibiting the analog outs, only when the flag is set. (Yeah, I know it's foolish.)

- Tim

timecop · 07-30-06, 09:17 AM

Thing is though, T165's DVI does NOT do HDCP last I checked.

VideoGrabber · 07-30-06, 09:57 AM

Ah, thanks timecop. I have no way to test that.

- Tim

dc10forlife · 07-30-06, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VideoGrabber

> This leads me to believe that the SIR-T165 is not capable of outputting 5c copy once material. <

Does your Sony HDTV support DVI input? Have you tried DVI out from the SIR-T165 to the Sony?

The reason I ask is because 5c-once protection can be maintained over DVI+HDCP, but not over analog component video. I suspect the Sammy may be inhibiting the analog outs, only when the flag is set. (Yeah, I know it's foolish.)

- Tim

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it and the results are no different. I think I'll go for a used JVD D-VHS deck, but will keep the Mits for recording/playback purposes.

madpoet · 07-30-06, 02:06 PM

Tim, 5c has absolutely nothing to do with HDCP so I doubt that using DVI maintains it in any way. The DVI receiver wouldn't have a clue what to do with it. 5c is entirely a firewire convention.

VideoGrabber · 07-30-06, 02:50 PM

mad,

Yeah, sure, I know, but presence of 5c protection (DTCP) for the compressed data link could trigger HDCP output protection on the uncompresssed DVI display link.

5c also has "absolutely nothing to do with" Macrovision. Yet 5c-once input will trigger MV-protection on the analog outputs of most (all?) devices that process it. It does on both the JVCs and the Sammy. Just like 5c-once will trigger HDMI-HDCP on the JVC 5u deck output.

- Tim

madpoet · 07-30-06, 06:38 PM

Tim, my impression was that HDCP was ALWAYS on on the JVC 5u. You are certainly correct though, some devices decide to do crazy things in the name of "protection". I'm not sure that I agree with this though:

"Yet 5c-once input will trigger MV-protection on the analog outputs of most (all?) devices that process it."

Hasn't happened to me yet on any of my JVC decks (30k, 40k, 5u) outputting analog. That's the downrezz flag, not 5c.

VideoGrabber · 07-31-06, 12:44 AM

mad,

> I'm not sure that I agree with this though: <

That's interesting, and you could be right. I lept to the conclusion that since 5c=0 material could be dumped out analog to my DVD-recorder, but 5c=1 recordings played on my JVCs to the DMR-E80 generated error messages due to CP being turned on, that 5c was the culprit. I'll admit it could be something else, but don't know what the mechanism would be. A "downrez flag" shouldn't preclude recording of that output altogether, should it? Doesn't sound like an intended purpose for such a flag.

My thinking was that since the 5c=1 flag indicates "play this material back for viewing, but don't allow HD copies", that when playing the downconverted SD material through the analog outs it would allow playback for viewing, but turn on MV-protection to prevent an SD copy from being made. I.e., one flag, controlling multiple CP mechanisms, as appropriate to each output port.

> You are certainly correct though, some devices decide to do crazy things in the name of "protection". <

You think?

When reviewing the manual for the SIR-T165 I noticed a comment on their Copy Protection page to the effect that: outputs from their SD composite and S-video ports (480i) can NOT be recorded, even when the source is an unprotected SD analog signal coming from one of the analog inputs!. I.e., even when the STB is acting simply as a switcher for unprotected analog input signals, the output will have MV-protection added to it.

There oughta be a law...

- Tim

timecop · 07-31-06, 06:29 AM

Yep, correct.
Properly implemented device with DTCP/5C/copy protection will keep the 'copy restriction' flags as the signal passes from device to another.

Ex: Premium HD channel with copy-once flag will record to D-VHS, becoming copy-never. When this recording is played back by D-VHS, HDMI will use HDCP encryption, analog HD (component out) will have macrovision flags, downrezzed S-Video/etc outputs will also have macrovision, and of course, dubbing to another D-VHS digitally would be impossible.

madpoet · 07-31-06, 09:19 AM

timecop, I'm going to disagree again

. There is a second mechanism beyond the copy once/always/never portion of 5c encryption that controls the downrezz flag. This is easily demonstrated because even on Copy Always material some people are STILL getting the downrezz. It is however a flag that can be stripped by running it through certain software, which re-enables the full HD output. Matt Stevens was running into an issue like this if I remember correctly. If it was a result of the Copy flag then we'd never be able to get it to a PC inthe first place, and I assure you we can

.

miimura · 07-31-06, 04:02 PM

I seem to recall that there is a table in the T165 documentation regarding inhibiting outputs based on 5c status. I recall that the RGB output is disabled when 5c protected content is received. I don't recall what it does to the Component output. I agree with one of the above posters that DVI is the most likely to succeed provided you have a DVI-HDCP or HDMI display.

- Mike

timecop · 05-10-07, 11:11 PM

Where do you get updated firmware for T165?
Is it downloadable and user-upgradeable? Or it needs a service visit?

Also, T165 *can* play D-Theater so it clearly supports 5C in some shape or form.

CKNA · 05-11-07, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timecop

Where do you get updated firmware for T165?
Is it downloadable and user-upgradeable? Or it needs a service visit?

Also, T165 *can* play D-Theater so it clearly supports 5C in some shape or form.

T165 is very flawed. It has 5C but there is bug when playing tapes recoded with copy once. Samsung knew that, as I let them know long time ago. They never fixed it. As you noticed D-theater plays no problem which has every copy protection ever designed for DVHS.

Latest firmware if not already on your box, will not fix this issue.

timecop · 05-11-07, 06:23 PM

Hm bummer.
I noticed copy-once tapes DO play just fine with JVC 30k/35k/5U.
However, I have the above mentioned mitsu deck and a Panasonic AVHDD which can emulate DVHS, and I get same results with both. I wonder if Samsung engineers never tested with anything except JVC...

dc10forlife · 05-12-07, 10:06 AM

I found the firmware upgrades linked from this site somewhere -- probably archived by now. I think Samsung gave up -- all units have been beyond warranty for a couple of years now. If I remember corectly the latest firmware reportedly caused the bricking of some boxes and/or problems with timer recordings. So I have stuck with the version before that.

07-19-06, 01:14 PM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
dc10forlife Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 519	SIR-T165 and Mits 1100/2000 DVHS I'm having some problems with the SIR-T165 paired with a Mits DVHS deck. The crux of the problem is that 5c "copy once" programming I have recorded onto DVHS tape is not playing back through the SIR-T165. Based upon my reasearch here there are two possibilities: the SIR-T165 is not 5c compliant or it is unable to decode the recordings. This contradicts what others have posted on the SIR-T165. My setup is the following: 1 MITS 1100u connected via firewire to a Toshiba 42HP95 (w/ cablecard) and a Toshiba Symbio AVHD 1 MITS 2000 connected via firewire to the SIR-T165 which is connected via component cables to a Sony HDTV that does not have firewire. I also have a SA 3250HD w/ firewire which I have made recordings off of. So far, all recordings I have made off of the 42HP95 and the 3250HD playback fine from the 1100u and 2000u to the 42HP95. 5c "copy freely" programming plays back fine from the MITS 2000 through the SIR-T165 to the Sony. I have made the following recordings to test everything out: ABC HD from the SIR-T165 to the MITS 2000 -- plays back fine on both setups ESPNHD (5c copy once) from the 3250 to MITS 2000 -- plays back only through the Toshiba, does not playback through the SIR-T165 NBC HD archived from the Symbio (originally from the 42HP95) to the MITS 1100 -- plays back fine on both setups HDNET/HBO HD (5c copy once) from the 42HP95 cablecard to the MITS 1100 -- plays back only through the Toshiba, does not play back through the SIR-T165 This leads me to believe that the SIR-T165 is not capable of outputting 5c copy once material. I have tried a copuple of different firmware versions to no success. My question is, should I just give up and buy a used JVC DCHS deck for use with the Sony, or should I keep trying with the SIR-T165? I suppose I should just get rid of the SIR-T165 since I can already record OTA HD. Any help would be appreciated.

07-30-06, 09:57 AM	#5 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
VideoGrabber AVS Special Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 2,712	Ah, thanks timecop. I have no way to test that. - Tim

07-30-06, 02:06 PM	#7 \| Link
madpoet AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Connecticut Posts: 13,320	Tim, 5c has absolutely nothing to do with HDCP so I doubt that using DVI maintains it in any way. The DVI receiver wouldn't have a clue what to do with it. 5c is entirely a firewire convention. __________________ Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...

07-30-06, 06:38 PM	#9 \| Link
madpoet AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Connecticut Posts: 13,320	Tim, my impression was that HDCP was ALWAYS on on the JVC 5u. You are certainly correct though, some devices decide to do crazy things in the name of "protection". I'm not sure that I agree with this though: "Yet 5c-once input will trigger MV-protection on the analog outputs of most (all?) devices that process it." Hasn't happened to me yet on any of my JVC decks (30k, 40k, 5u) outputting analog. That's the downrezz flag, not 5c. __________________ Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...

07-31-06, 12:44 AM	#10 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
VideoGrabber AVS Special Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 2,712	mad, > I'm not sure that I agree with this though: < That's interesting, and you could be right. I lept to the conclusion that since 5c=0 material could be dumped out analog to my DVD-recorder, but 5c=1 recordings played on my JVCs to the DMR-E80 generated error messages due to CP being turned on, that 5c was the culprit. I'll admit it could be something else, but don't know what the mechanism would be. A "downrez flag" shouldn't preclude recording of that output altogether, should it? Doesn't sound like an intended purpose for such a flag. My thinking was that since the 5c=1 flag indicates "play this material back for viewing, but don't allow HD copies", that when playing the downconverted SD material through the analog outs it would allow playback for viewing, but turn on MV-protection to prevent an SD copy from being made. I.e., one flag, controlling multiple CP mechanisms, as appropriate to each output port. > You are certainly correct though, some devices decide to do crazy things in the name of "protection". < You think? When reviewing the manual for the SIR-T165 I noticed a comment on their Copy Protection page to the effect that: outputs from their SD composite and S-video ports (480i) can NOT be recorded, *even when the source is an unprotected SD analog signal coming from one of the analog inputs!*. I.e., even when the STB is acting simply as a switcher for unprotected analog input signals, the output will have MV-protection added to it. There oughta be a law... - Tim

07-26-06, 12:25 PM	#2 \| Link
locomo AVS Special Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Memphis Posts: 1,146	I received the SIR-165 recently but haven't played with it much. Seems to not like to play tapes very well, that weren't recored thru it. I also had the same problem(i.e. copy once tapes) with the LG receiver/recorder, and got rid of it. Later someone posted a fix, so you might want to search the archives.

07-30-06, 01:51 AM	#3 \| Link
VideoGrabber AVS Special Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 2,712	> This leads me to believe that the SIR-T165 is not capable of outputting 5c copy once material. < Does your Sony HDTV support DVI input? Have you tried DVI out from the SIR-T165 to the Sony? The reason I ask is because 5c-once protection can be maintained over DVI+HDCP, but not over analog component video. I suspect the Sammy may be inhibiting the analog outs, only when the flag is set. (Yeah, I know it's foolish.) - Tim

07-30-06, 09:17 AM	#4 \| Link
timecop AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 1,134	Thing is though, T165's DVI does NOT do HDCP last I checked.

07-30-06, 02:50 PM	#8 \| Link
VideoGrabber AVS Special Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 2,712	mad, Yeah, sure, I know, but presence of 5c protection (DTCP) for the compressed data link could trigger HDCP output protection on the uncompresssed DVI display link. 5c also has "absolutely nothing to do with" Macrovision. Yet 5c-once input will trigger MV-protection on the analog outputs of most (all?) devices that process it. It does on both the JVCs and the Sammy. Just like 5c-once will trigger HDMI-HDCP on the JVC 5u deck output. - Tim

07-31-06, 06:29 AM	#11 \| Link
timecop AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 1,134	Yep, correct. Properly implemented device with DTCP/5C/copy protection will keep the 'copy restriction' flags as the signal passes from device to another. Ex: Premium HD channel with copy-once flag will record to D-VHS, becoming copy-never. When this recording is played back by D-VHS, HDMI will use HDCP encryption, analog HD (component out) will have macrovision flags, downrezzed S-Video/etc outputs will also have macrovision, and of course, dubbing to another D-VHS digitally would be impossible.

07-31-06, 09:19 AM	#12 \| Link
madpoet AVS Special Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Connecticut Posts: 13,320	timecop, I'm going to disagree again . There is a second mechanism beyond the copy once/always/never portion of 5c encryption that controls the downrezz flag. This is easily demonstrated because even on Copy Always material some people are STILL getting the downrezz. It is however a flag that can be stripped by running it through certain software, which re-enables the full HD output. Matt Stevens was running into an issue like this if I remember correctly. If it was a result of the Copy flag then we'd never be able to get it to a PC inthe first place, and I assure you we can . __________________ Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...

07-31-06, 04:02 PM	#13 \| Link
miimura AVS Special Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Cupertino, CA Posts: 1,222	I seem to recall that there is a table in the T165 documentation regarding inhibiting outputs based on 5c status. I recall that the RGB output is disabled when 5c protected content is received. I don't recall what it does to the Component output. I agree with one of the above posters that DVI is the most likely to succeed provided you have a DVI-HDCP or HDMI display. - Mike

05-10-07, 11:11 PM	#14 \| Link
timecop AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 1,134	Where do you get updated firmware for T165? Is it downloadable and user-upgradeable? Or it needs a service visit? Also, T165 can play D-Theater so it clearly supports 5C in some shape or form.

05-11-07, 06:23 PM	#16 \| Link
timecop AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 1,134	Hm bummer. I noticed copy-once tapes DO play just fine with JVC 30k/35k/5U. However, I have the above mentioned mitsu deck and a Panasonic AVHDD which can emulate DVHS, and I get same results with both. I wonder if Samsung engineers never tested with anything except JVC...

05-12-07, 10:06 AM	#17 \| Link
dc10forlife Advanced Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 519	I found the firmware upgrades linked from this site somewhere -- probably archived by now. I think Samsung gave up -- all units have been beyond warranty for a couple of years now. If I remember corectly the latest firmware reportedly caused the bricking of some boxes and/or problems with timer recordings. So I have stuck with the version before that.