Time Warner Cable Navigator

[jacksonian]

Well, I'm disappointed that it doesn't sound like Navigator is going to be any improvement over Passport. But I'm even more excited that I jumped ship and went with a TiVo S3. Guess it's time to buy a couple more and give all my TWC boxes back.

[Crazywoody]

Sounds lke Crashdumy is compareing Navigator to Passport.For us who do not go the Tivo route (sara users)it will beam us miles ahead of what we have now.With SA sara out of the picture and TWC Diana heading Mystro Navigator I can picture more frequent upgades and the customers being listened to.Think i will ride it out til I get Navigator then make my final decision.We may be suprised at the final product or not.Been with sara this long think i will give Navigator a chance.

[Crazywoody]

PS-We have yet to see what Navigator offers in DVR recording options.Hopefully for once TWC may supprise us.After all the dvr is what we all want beside good search features.I can take a less snazzy interface if the fetures are all there.

[DoubleDAZ]

Did anyone ever find out what Navigator is based on? Is it a total rewrite of DVR code by TWC or is it a separate overlay that needs Passport or something in the background?

[DeathRay]

there is no way the navigator could look any more old school than SARA. if navigator is a commodore64 then that would make SARA a typewriter. or a pen.

[Crazywoody]

Originally Posted by DeathRay

there is no way the navigator could look any more old school than SARA. if navigator is a commodore64 then that would make SARA a typewriter. or a pen.

AMEN

[michaeltscott]

Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ

Did anyone ever find out what Navigator is based on? Is it a total rewrite of DVR code by TWC or is it a separate overlay that needs Passport or something in the background?

Both Passport and SARA are applications built on top of an RTOS called PowerTV and a set of middleware APIs developed by SA (SA acquired the group who wrote PowerTV). In a similar fashion, though they all used to have vendor-unique GUIs and capabilities, nearly all mobile phones are built on top of Qualcomm's REX RTOS and a set of middleware APIs, also from Qualcomm.

I'm sure that the new Navigator is built on top of the same base. There is an OCAP version of it which must be completely independent of that environment, since it won't be present on the arbitrary 3rd party boxes and televisions onto which it will be downloadable.

[Crazywoody]

Originally Posted by michaeltscott

Both Passport and SARA are applications built on top of an RTOS called PowerTV and a set of middleware APIs developed by SA (SA acquired the group who wrote PowerTV). In a similar fashion, though they all used to have vendor-unique GUIs and capabilities, nearly all mobile phones are built on top of Qualcomm's REX RTOS and a set of middleware APIs, also from Qualcomm.

I'm sure that the new Navigator is built on top of the same base. There is an OCAP version of it which must be completely independent of that environment, since it won't be present on the arbitrary 3rd party boxes and televisions onto which it will be downloadable.

According to TWC and several other sites such as Multi Media the Navigator software is all TWC written And that sara and passport are being stripped from the boxes.

[michaeltscott]

Originally Posted by Crazywoody

According to TWC and several other sites such as Multi Media the Navigator software is all TWC written And that sara and passport are being stripped from the boxes.

Again, Power TV is not Passport or SARA. neither of which are operating systems. Believe me, they didn't start writing the new Navigator from scratch on the bare metal--it would have been horrendously and unnecessarily expensive and time consuming. There was some sort of RTOS (Realtime Operating System) used.

There is an OCAP version of the Navigator, which can be downloaded into CableCARD V2 devices and run directly on them. TWC and Samsung demonstrated it running on an unreleased Samsumg television w/o any STB (Samsung's television line with this capability is due out this Fall). That version doesn't require Power TV--it just needs the OCAP execution environment, which is a Java VM profile.

There's an article about TWC's Digital Navigator here. Though it's primarily about porting it to OpenTV's platform for support of Motorola boxes, it confirms my assertion that the Navigator also runs on top of PowerTV on SA boxes:

LaJoie said TWC is able to get its digital navigator onto S-A set-top boxes by writing in C (code) directly to the Power TV operating system, but the Motorola platform has a different operating system.

...

LaJoie said the OpenTV deal gives TWC three different layers for its set-top box client applications platform: the TWC digital navigator written in C for the Power TV operating system that will run on the S-A boxes, the porting of the digital navigator to OpenTV's middleware that will run on top of the Motorola boxes, and the OCAP platform for advanced set-top boxes by S-A, Motorola and other vendors.

[DoubleDAZ]

Mike,

I see what you are getting at, thanks for aswering my question. I saw a comment from someone else that thought Navigator ran on top of Passport and that was why I asked. I assumed it used PowerTV (though I had forgotten that'swhat it was) and figured it was being/has been ported for OCAP. Do you know if TWC aquired a company that does this sort of development or did they actually put together an in-house department? The reason I ask is because I think that will give them an edge up on controlling software releases system-wide unlike Cox and other, including TWC now, who allow more local decisions and that means everyone is not always on the same page. I see that as a major advantage for Tivo. They release an upgrade and everyone gets it at the same time. Cable is just such a neanderthal business model in almost all respects.

[michaeltscott]

Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ

Do you know if TWC aquired a company that does this sort of development or did they actually put together an in-house department?

They have an in-house department called the Interactive Personal Video Group who have done this development. They've commissioned some of the work to be done outside, as in the arrangement with OpenTV to port the thing to Moto STBs in the article I linked to in my last post.

Do you really think that TWC will force simultaneous updates on all of their SOs?

[DoubleDAZ]

I would hope that at some point they would, at least after suffucient beta-testing and OCAP implementation. I'm not an OCAP expert by any means, but I have high hopes that it, and whatever else is currently being worked, will standardize cableco's, at least within a given company (Cox, TWC, etc.). One of the biggest problems I see with SARA, and Passport to a lesser degree, is the number of different releases being used and how imcompatible they all are across all markets.

[Crazywoody]

A while back i read an article (foget the mag)at my dentist office that contained a interview with the head of TWC.To paraphrase what i remember he stated a inhouse group had written the Mystro software.The purpose was to give TWC complete control of their guide and software.TWC wants one software and guide over their entire cable system.Mystro Digital Navigator is it.When it's fully deployed if you live in Hawaii,New York or North Carolina you will have the same uniform TWC guide and dvr software.TWC wants full control and not have to rely on outside guides.SARA and PAsSPORT are being stripped out in favor of Navigator.They are trying to get it deployed as Cox and Comcast deploy TIVO.

[Brad Smith]

Hey guys,

I have TWC in Lincoln, NE, and have witnessed the gradual rollout of the new software. They have yet to update the DVR boxes, but have updated the regular digital cable boxes in most places. Generally speaking, there's been a lot of unhappiness. When scrolling through the guide, all the shows disappear from the list (leaving a blank grid until you stop scrolling). This happens even when scrolling one cell at a time. Channel changes are slow. The interface is ugly and clunky. It seems to register commands from the remote multiple times (i.e. hit channel up, box changes three channels quickly). All in all, it's very buggy and everyone I know who has it hates it. If that's any indication, the DVR software will be even worse. It may be time to buy the HD Tivo.

[davehancock]

My guess is that they won't roll out the DVR software till they take care of the issues that you point out. But I would also have expected better alpha testing before they rolled ANY of this out to regular customers.

Please keep us posted.

[Crazywoody]

BUMMER i had hoped for more.

[Adelmoxi]

Are their any Motorola STB's with TW Navigator already on them? if so how do they run? is it slower than i-Guide?

[Adelmoxi]

Originally Posted by Brad Smith

Hey guys,

I have TWC in Lincoln, NE, and have witnessed the gradual rollout of the new software. They have yet to update the DVR boxes, but have updated the regular digital cable boxes in most places. Generally speaking, there's been a lot of unhappiness. When scrolling through the guide, all the shows disappear from the list (leaving a blank grid until you stop scrolling). This happens even when scrolling one cell at a time. Channel changes are slow. The interface is ugly and clunky. It seems to register commands from the remote multiple times (i.e. hit channel up, box changes three channels quickly). All in all, it's very buggy and everyone I know who has it hates it. If that's any indication, the DVR software will be even worse. It may be time to buy the HD Tivo.

Are they using Scientific Atlanta boxes or Motorola's?

[Dorny423]

Originally Posted by Adelmoxi

Are they using Scientific Atlanta boxes or Motorola's?

I am also in Lincoln and they just updated the DVR boxes. They are SA boxes.

All the problems the other Lincoln poster listed are valid. Also in the guide there is no info for whether or not the program is new or a repeat like it had previously. I set up some series passes last night and all but one was gone this morning (might be my fault though). I also can not get a Dolby Digital feed to my receiver like I was able to previously with my HD channels. No one I know likes it either it looks terrible compared to what we had previously.

[davehancock]

Originally Posted by Dorny423

No one I know likes it either it looks terrible compared to what we had previously.

That's the price of being at the "bleeding edge." From what I've read, you have an extremely early (I'd call it a "concept model") of this software. At least, I'm sure you guys will be the first to get a more full-blown version.

[BlackWS6LS1]

From Lincoln NE also, I received the HD DVR update.... And hate it! I agree with everything Brad and Dorny say, plus my list.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=764397

[DSperber]

Originally Posted by Dorny423

I also can not get a Dolby Digital feed to my receiver like I was able to previously with my HD channels.

I haven't read the backstory on this but I do know there is a Dolby Digital issue with the SA8300 and some HDTV sets (e.g. the Sharp Aquos) when fed via HDMI.

Since the HDTV says it can't receive DD5.1 via HDMI, the SA8300 shuts down all audio outputs to standard PCM 2-channel stereo. This means on both the HDMI audio path as well as the optical audio path to your receiver.

The solution (if this is your problem) is to substitute an HDMI-to-DVI cable for connecting the SA8300 to your HDTV (if your set has a DVI input), or get two HDMI-to-HDMI cables and join them with a pair of HDMI-to-DVI adapters (if your set does not have a DVI input but only an HDMI input), so as to eliminate the audio part of the HDMI signal path. That way the SA8300 is not bothered by the fact that the HDTV cannot accept DD5.1 over HDMI and will simply do whatever you tell it.

And of course you should then "force" Dolby Digital audio output in the General Settings (press Settings twice to get there), navigating to "AUDIO: DIGITAL OUT" and then moving over to select "DOLBY DIGITAL".

This combination of steps will cause Dolby Digital out to your receiver (which is obviously what you are listening to, not the speakers in the set) and still provide digital video (HDMI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-DVI-to-HDMI) to the HDTV. The downside, of course, is that there will now be NO audio delivered to your HDTV for its speakers, but I don't think you're concerned about that.

If this is your problem, then this is your solution. Just a quirk of the SA8300 and some HDTV sets.

P.S. - one other "solution" is to use component video connections from SA8300 to HDTV instead of HDMI. But depending on your set and your desires, this may be a non-starter.

[Dorny423]

Originally Posted by DSperber

I haven't read the backstory on this but I do know there is a Dolby Digital issue with the SA8300 and some HDTV sets (e.g. the Sharp Aquos) when fed via HDMI.

Since the HDTV says it can't receive DD5.1 via HDMI, the SA8300 shuts down all audio outputs to standard PCM 2-channel stereo. This means on both the HDMI audio path as well as the optical audio path to your receiver.

The solution (if this is your problem) is to substitute an HDMI-to-DVI cable for connecting the SA8300 to your HDTV (if your set has a DVI input), or get two HDMI-to-HDMI cables and join them with a pair of HDMI-to-DVI adapters (if your set does not have a DVI input but only an HDMI input), so as to eliminate the audio part of the HDMI signal path. That way the SA8300 is not bothered by the fact that the HDTV cannot accept DD5.1 over HDMI and will simply do whatever you tell it.

And of course you should then "force" Dolby Digital audio output in the General Settings (press Settings twice to get there), navigating to "AUDIO: DIGITAL OUT" and then moving over to select "DOLBY DIGITAL".

This combination of steps will cause Dolby Digital out to your receiver (which is obviously what you are listening to, not the speakers in the set) and still provide digital video (HDMI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-DVI-to-HDMI) to the HDTV. The downside, of course, is that there will now be NO audio delivered to your HDTV for its speakers, but I don't think you're concerned about that.

If this is your problem, then this is your solution. Just a quirk of the SA8300 and some HDTV sets.

P.S. - one other "solution" is to use component video connections from SA8300 to HDTV instead of HDMI. But depending on your set and your desires, this may be a non-starter.

Thanks I may try this. I was going to try it through component just to see if DD 5.1 works but I am fairly certain it would and that this is just an issue with the use of an HDMI cable. With the old software I was able to force the 5.1 audio to my receiver while using HDMI to my set. In the new menus it shows this as an option but it doesn't work. The old software also allowed me to set what resolution I sent to my set via HDMI the new software doesn't let me via HDMI but will via component. That isn't a big issue as my set seems to react better to resolution changes with this software than it did with the old software (not sure why that would be). It still is a hassle when trying to surf channels going from some 720p to 1080i to 480p (on the SD channels) and having that half second of blue screen.

When I had a TW guy out a couple months ago he said that they don't recommend to people to use HDMI because of all the issues they have with them and their boxes.

[DSperber]

Originally Posted by Dorny423

Thanks I may try this. I was going to try it through component just to see if DD 5.1 works but I am fairly certain it would and that this is just an issue with the use of an HDMI cable.

Yes, using component cables is the same as using an HDMI-to-DVI cable, or eliminating the audio portion of the HDMI signal using the pair of HDMI cables and pair of DVI-to-HDMI adapters solution I described above. As long as you have no audio aspect for the SA8300 to worry about (as you don't, with any of the above approaches) there's no reason for the SA8300 to shut down its DD5.1 delivery thinking that the receiving device at the other end of the audio cable (i.e. the HDMI cable) cannot receive it.

So yes, using component cables is yet another solution, although depending on your HDTV this might be undesirable from a video quality perspective.

With the old software I was able to force the 5.1 audio to my receiver while using HDMI to my set. In the new menus it shows this as an option but it doesn't work. The old software also allowed me to set what resolution I sent to my set via HDMI the new software doesn't let me via HDMI but will via component.

Is this true? I don't have an SA8300 but I'm quite familiar with it as I've helped several friends and family members who have it. I thought there was a setup option dealing with video sent out by the SA8300, and I can't imagine they would have tampered with it.

You got into General Settings (press Settings button twice) and navigate to "SET: PICTURE FORMAT". Then you move the cursor right, and then navigate to the "PASS-THROUGH" or "AUTO-DVI" setting. This causes the SA8300 to send out resolution which matches that of the source program.

Also, you should have initially gone through the basic "VIDEO SETUP WIZARD" for the SA8300. With power off on the SA8300 but power on for your HDTV, simultaneously press the INFO and GUIDE buttons on the front of the box. The VIDEO SETUP WIZARD will appear on your HDTV screen. It's pretty intuitive so just follow its instructions. Essentially you're asked to confirm that your HDTV can or cannot receive each of the resolutions the SA8300 is capable of putting out. If you say YES, and a program is received in that format, and you have PASS-THROUGH specified (as described above), the show will be passed through in exactly the same resolution as it arrived in. No up or down convert.

Depending on how you feel about side bars for 4:3 content (personally, I WANT them so them that the 4:3 picture is proper proportioned and people look like people) you should experiment with how 4:3 content displays on your HDTV when you tell the SA8300's SETUP WIZARD that the set can or cannot accept 480p and 480i (standard and wide). If you say NO to those questions the picture displayed will be upconverted (to 720p, probably) and presented with sidebars (i.e. with proper aspect ratio, no zoom or stretch).

Don't listen to the technician who tells you not to use HDMI.

[Dorny423]

Originally Posted by DSperber

You got into General Settings (press Settings button twice) and navigate to "SET: PICTURE FORMAT". Then you move the cursor right, and then navigate to the "PASS-THROUGH" or "AUTO-DVI" setting. This causes the SA8300 to send out resolution which matches that of the source program.

Also, you should have initially gone through the basic "VIDEO SETUP WIZARD" for the SA8300. With power off on the SA8300 but power on for your HDTV, simultaneously press the INFO and GUIDE buttons on the front of the box. The VIDEO SETUP WIZARD will appear on your HDTV screen. It's pretty intuitive so just follow its instructions. Essentially you're asked to confirm that your HDTV can or cannot receive each of the resolutions the SA8300 is capable of putting out. If you say YES, and a program is received in that format, and you have PASS-THROUGH specified (as described above), the show will be passed through in exactly the same resolution as it arrived in. No up or down convert.

Depending on how you feel about side bars for 4:3 content (personally, I WANT them so them that the 4:3 picture is proper proportioned and people look like people) you should experiment with how 4:3 content displays on your HDTV when you tell the SA8300's SETUP WIZARD that the set can or cannot accept 480p and 480i (standard and wide). If you say NO to those questions the picture displayed will be upconverted (to 720p, probably) and presented with sidebars (i.e. with proper aspect ratio, no zoom or stretch).

Don't listen to the technician who tells you not to use HDMI.

Tried this and it doesn't work. I don't know if it did work before with the old software (the INFO and GUIDE trick). With the old software I would just tell it that my set would only accept 720p in the settings and everything would be converted to that (HD and SD channels). The SD channels wouldn't be stretched or anything like that. I have no such options now with the new Navigator software and it specifically says in the settings under the output resolution tab "This setting CANNOT be modified when using a DVI or HDMI connection"

As for the HDMI cable the TW guy said as much about the it when he was out here. The only reason they didn't recommend it was that some sets have issues with the HDCP and that they were answering too many service calls for people that didn't know how to use the cable properly. Not that for instance he didn't like it, but more some of the people trying to use it.

[DSperber]

Originally Posted by Dorny423

Tried this and it doesn't work. I don't know if it did work before with the old software (the INFO and GUIDE trick). With the old software I would just tell it that my set would only accept 720p in the settings and everything would be converted to that (HD and SD channels). The SD channels wouldn't be stretched or anything like that. I have no such options now with the new Navigator software and it specifically says in the settings under the output resolution tab "This setting CANNOT be modified when using a DVI or HDMI connection

I'm now reading your "the new Navigator software" and realizing you're probably talking about VERY NEW software, and not the old SARA software I was thinking had simply had an upgrade sent out to your SA8300. Apparently, I misunderstood.

So, if they've eliminated (1) the VIDEO SETUP WIZARD triggered by the INFO+GUIDE buttons when the box is powered off, and also (2) the ability to force specific output resolutions or pass-through all resolutions, independent of whether you use component video or HDMI connections, then I too would be disappointed. But sorry, I can't help you. No help from TWC? At least you should be able to complain and send your problem description somewhere or talk to someone higher up in TWC Regional or someplace.

Fortunately, I am in a former Comcast area in LA and have a Moto 6412-II DVR which is not being replaced. However within the next year I'm sure TWC will push out a version of Navigator for the Moto boxes as well, and then we can both cry together (unless they address the loss of functionality you're describing in a later release).

[sprwelch]

They just made the change over to the new Mystro Navigator here in Lincoln. I must say the navigator is lacking in many ways.

1st the interface more than just "old school" it's downright prehistoric! My god I have a HD media projector in my living room and its god awful to look at the new menu display.

2nd Even worse than the cosmetic look of the "New Navigator", is the functionality, I fail to see any improvements, and the keyword search is laughable! With the old passport I could search by keyword, including actor, title, genre... etc. Now (if it even loads) the new search feature gives you no other search options but a general search.

3rd Fast Forward functionality is horrible! With the old passport system, when you would fast-forward (at the fastest setting) through commercials it had a nifty feature and would back up a few seconds corresponding to human delayed reaction. Which meant as soon as you saw the program was on you stop fast forwarding and it would back up so that you didn’t miss a thing? With the new POS navigator, if you use the (times 3) fast forward be prepared to always have to rewind manually because it starts playing at the point at which you stop.

4th Manual Recording functionality has failed every single time! Again with the old passport system all one had to do is press the rec button and it would convert all buffered video to the dvr and also record until the program was over. Our wonderful new Navigator can't handle this simple task. Every time I have attempted to do this it will convert the last 10 min of video to the dvr and completely fail to record the rest of the show.

All in all I am confused and disgusted that TWC decided to take this route. I have debated the switch to satellite for a while, but I think my decision has been made for me now!

[Brad Smith]

Just to chime back in...

I was never, ever going to spend $800 on a TiVo Series 3. That was way too much money.

Then TWC Nebraska (Lincoln) updated my SA8300 from Passport to Navigator.

I now own a TiVo Series 3.

Enough said.

[quiller]

Another from Nebraska. We received the update yesterday, with a SA DVR box. I can't say much more than sprwelch, who outlined all the gripes I have. I'm simply disgusted at everything: the interface, the "features" and "improvements." I realize that I might have been lucky, having Passport, but why in the world would Time Warner think this new system is anywhere approaching better (or even equal) to the old system?

Ugly, awkward, horrible. All of these words describe the terrible-ness Time Warner has bestowed upon my household.

I recently called Time Warner and was immediately greeted with some great one-liners, although I can't fault the rep I talked to. He sounded like he had talked to the entire state of Nebraska, all of them complaining and wanting their old, functional, not-circa-1998 guide back. Apparently, Navigator is "taking a step backward to take two forward" and "numerous updates are planned in the upcoming weeks." Nearly every complaint I voiced was met with "Yea, a lot of customers are saying the same thing" and "I know exactly what you're talking about."

While I'm upset with the new system, two things reassure me: 1) Time Warner actually appears to care what their customers think and 2) I'm a [finals] week away from switching my main television to an HTPC powered by MediaPortal. It can't come soon enough!

[Dorny423]

Originally Posted by kcmotwcuser

I will have to agree with everyone. This seems to be several steps back. I was over at my friend’s here in KC who is an employee of TWC. He got the NEW Navigator last week. He lost all shows stored on his 8300HD. KC is on the track to launch to customers mid January 07. I can only say I hope, I am one of the few that it fails to load on. I love Passport and all the advance features it has over Navigator. I only had about an hour of poking around but things I did notice, have all been touched in previous posts. The following were the most disappointing features I will really miss. I hope everyone keeps calling and voicing their views of something I would only compare to, is getting an IBM XT for X-Mas with a NEW and Advanced 6 MHz 286 and a CGA monitor to run my MS Pac Man games with the keyboard commands. Lets have a retro evening tonight.

1. Colors are horrid. Blue on Blue cursor. WOW back to the days 16 color of CGA.

2. The auto jump back feature when FF through commercials - GONE.

3. Can't re-prioritize my DVR series recording. Last show added is now at the top of the list, they say to move shows back to the top you must delete and add them back. So if you really want to make sure Survivor records or any of your favorite shows, make sure you are home. We all know that we add all our most important show to the series manager 1st and then add the other at later dates. But 1st in is last out, is the TWC inventory plan. I guess that explains why Mystro or New “Navigator” was really a program from back in 1998-2000 that never got off the ground, and now we give it a new name and the “IT’s NEW and Advanced” spin in 2007.

4. Navigator looks bad on standard TV but, wait till you see it on HDTV. I only have a 34” HD set; I bet on a 60” the pixels are large enough to play Twister on. Where did I put my lime green leisure suit?

5. Oh, did I tell you how slow the guide and search features load. I guess they don’t use Road Runners bandwidth to get the data to the box. It looks like the guide has to load from the server every time you press the guide button and pressing the B button to use the advance search features will black out the preview box until the search application loads. Oh the days of loading data from a floppy disk bring back fond memories.

6. Select a show to delete, hope you really wanted too. As the confirmation dialog box, is …you guessed it. GONE, just like the show you just deleted.

I am sure all this is a bean counter move as it will save TWC from paying for Passport and Sara upgrades. But when they start seeing customers leave to Dish and other video providers, the bean counters will have to eat crow. ONLY, once video customers leave you have to give them a reason to come back, that usually means steep rate cuts.

So if you come home one day and find you have this Blue/Blue/White guide on you screen. Kiss your saved show good bye and don’t worry. You will learn all the new features in no time, because there aren’t many. I wonder if the next step is start sending you a paper copy of the programming.

To be fair I will say that I didn't lose any of my previously saved shows. Maybe I was lucky I don't know. Otherwise the rest of this looks about the same.