120Hz LCD's -- will it make a difference?

falser · 10-13-06, 02:18 PM

We've been hearing about 120Hz sets either announced or preparing for release. Are they worth waiting for? There's been some talk about how it will eliminate frame judder from 24fps film content etc. But I'm wondering if this will really make much of a difference in our living rooms. LCD's have a built in refresh delay that may make the difference a non-issue.

I've seen judder for myself in some 1080i content when it's IVTC'd to 24fps. This being on a Dell monitor at 60Hz. But I do not see it, or at least I do not notice it on most content I watch. Maybe 1 in 10 or less movies suffers from this problem, and I'm not fully convinced it's because my monitor is running at 60Hz. I think it's probably because these films don't have a proper 3:2 pulldown flag encoded -- ie. bad/corrupted MPEG source.

Any thoughts?

wtr_wkr · 10-14-06, 02:42 PM

LCDs have a history of being poor with motion. 120Hz is suppose to solve that problem by no longer "smearing" the image. I read something about new VPs do motion de-interlacing and motion interpolation.

Chech out the reviews of the new JVC with 120Hz. And, this chip should be in sets in the future: http://www.micronas.com/products/trud/index.html#88337 Click on the demo.

I see judder with ~all motion. That include in a theater. I'm going to wait and check em out.

wxkid23 · 10-14-06, 02:48 PM

They may make a difference. 60hz is still a bit lower than humans can percieve. I know that I can notice framerate issues up to 70-75hz before I notice little difference.

NYFOOTBALLGIANTS · 10-16-06, 09:14 AM

Check out the new Home Theater Mag for a review of the new JVC

Gstrein · 01-16-07, 01:01 PM

Does anyone know if you send a 120hz signal to an existing 1080p LCD from a scaler capable of doing such will it work or not. Obviously the lcd screen is not being changed on these models it is the electronics and but I don't know if there would be a weak link somewhere preventing the 120hz signal from displaying.

phigment · 01-16-07, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gstrein

Does anyone know if you send a 120hz signal to an existing 1080p LCD from a scaler capable of doing such will it work or not. Obviously the lcd screen is not being changed on these models it is the electronics and but I don't know if there would be a weak link somewhere preventing the 120hz signal from displaying.

If I understand correctly, these 120Hz capable screens will NOT accept 120Hz signals. They will accept 60Hz (or 24Hz) signal and convert them to 120Hz. The conversion process depends on the algorithm they use. Some manufacturers will be doing motion compensated frame rate conversion, while others will use black frame insertion.

Personally I would opt for the black frame insertion.

wtr_wkr · 01-17-07, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phigment

...Personally I would opt for the black frame insertion.

Sharp 62 series is bfi. Sharp 92 series is frc. Same panel (4ms.)

Have you seen both? Side by side?

phigment · 01-17-07, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtr_wkr

Sharp 62 series is bfi. Sharp 92 series is frc. Same panel (4ms.)

Have you seen both? Side by side?

No I haven't seen either. Maybe I shouldn't have said that I'd opt for bfi. I will reserve final judgement until I see them. But it makes more sense to me to just use bfi to emulate the impluse nature of CRT screens and reduce the hold nature of LCD (which causes the blur to begin with).

I feel that the motion compensated images will introduce new artifacts that I may not be happy with.

But like I said, I will wait until I get a chance to see both before I say which is best.

Jeff_DML · 01-24-07, 01:27 PM

I turned on Black Frame Insertion(Fine Motion) on my Sharp D62 and so far havent noticed any difference. I have only watched a few sitcoms so not a good judgement. I still seem to see some judder and turning it off/on doesnt seem to make a difference. The network shows are video or film based? maybe I am see 24frames judder not the LCD related judder? I still want to watch some fast action sports with a lot of panning before deciding if it works or not.

Randomcreek · 02-02-08, 02:31 PM

"Some manufacturers will be doing motion compensated frame rate conversion, while others will use black frame insertion."

Why not do BOTH? I think for 24FPS video at 120Hz there would be 5 copies of each of the 24 frames displayed per second. You could use the first 4 and do algorithmic interpolation and the last as a black frame. Or insert black frame every other interpolated copy. Not sure if this would work- Just a thought, but potentially you could get a synergistic effect using both methods together that would produce a result better than either one used alone.

aznboi04k · 02-10-08, 01:21 PM

am i the only one that don't like 120hz lcd?

i went to circuit city to check it out on a samsung 120hz lcd playing the incredibles in bluray. the video was silky smooth when there aren't much motion going on, like people standing still and talking, but when the scenes starts to move, the video quality looks terrible! the frame rate look like it drop from 120hz to maybe 30hz. i thought it was very jarring on my eyes. it felt like playing games on a computer that slows down when too much actions occur.

i fine it better to have a 60hz lcd cause then your eye can compensate for the motion blur and it's not as noticeable when there are a lot of motion. am i the only one experiencing this phenomenon?

BBQTofu · 02-21-08, 07:02 AM

120Hz sounded good on paper. However...is liquid crystal's response time fast enough to support 120 FPS? Is the final front of screen performance really at 120Hz? Most of the current advertised LCD response time is measured from gray to gray in measurement of mS (Funny how nobody has ever specified from what % of gray.). Maybe 120Hz makes more sense for faster display technology such as plasma or DLP. For LCD, I'm skeptical on the real performance benefits.

MrEastSide · 02-21-08, 07:34 AM

120hz to me makes everything look like it's in fast forward. Terrible if you ask me. In the side by side demo some of the TVs have going I thought the normal side looked much more natural and better.

rocky01 · 02-21-08, 08:57 AM

Why not feed a 1080p 120hz signal from videocard and watch signal playing a film?

eyecon82 · 05-05-08, 12:09 PM

Well...take a look for yourself and compare....i can see a huge noticeable difference b/w the 60 and 120hz lcd sets

10-13-06, 02:18 PM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
falser Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 362	120Hz LCD's -- will it make a difference? We've been hearing about 120Hz sets either announced or preparing for release. Are they worth waiting for? There's been some talk about how it will eliminate frame judder from 24fps film content etc. But I'm wondering if this will really make much of a difference in our living rooms. LCD's have a built in refresh delay that may make the difference a non-issue. I've seen judder for myself in some 1080i content when it's IVTC'd to 24fps. This being on a Dell monitor at 60Hz. But I do not see it, or at least I do not notice it on most content I watch. Maybe 1 in 10 or less movies suffers from this problem, and I'm not fully convinced it's because my monitor is running at 60Hz. I think it's probably because these films don't have a proper 3:2 pulldown flag encoded -- ie. bad/corrupted MPEG source. Any thoughts?

10-14-06, 02:42 PM	#2 \| Link
wtr_wkr AVS Special Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 1,429	LCDs have a history of being poor with motion. 120Hz is suppose to solve that problem by no longer "smearing" the image. I read something about new VPs do motion de-interlacing and motion interpolation. Chech out the reviews of the new JVC with 120Hz. And, this chip should be in sets in the future: http://www.micronas.com/products/trud/index.html#88337 Click on the demo. I see judder with ~all motion. That include in a theater. I'm going to wait and check em out. __________________ HD-DVD is dead, so now I'm a Gary McCoy fanboy.

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Gstrein New Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6	Does anyone know if you send a 120hz signal to an existing 1080p LCD from a scaler capable of doing such will it work or not. Obviously the lcd screen is not being changed on these models it is the electronics and but I don't know if there would be a weak link somewhere preventing the 120hz signal from displaying.

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Randomcreek Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 339	"Some manufacturers will be doing motion compensated frame rate conversion, while others will use black frame insertion." Why not do BOTH? I think for 24FPS video at 120Hz there would be 5 copies of each of the 24 frames displayed per second. You could use the first 4 and do algorithmic interpolation and the last as a black frame. Or insert black frame every other interpolated copy. Not sure if this would work- Just a thought, but potentially you could get a synergistic effect using both methods together that would produce a result better than either one used alone. Last edited by Randomcreek; 02-02-08 at 02:36 PM..

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eyecon82 Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 71	Well...take a look for yourself and compare....i can see a huge noticeable difference b/w the 60 and 120hz lcd sets

10-14-06, 02:48 PM	#3 \| Link
wxkid23 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 164	They may make a difference. 60hz is still a bit lower than humans can percieve. I know that I can notice framerate issues up to 70-75hz before I notice little difference.

10-16-06, 09:14 AM	#4 \| Link
NYFOOTBALLGIANTS NYFOOTBALLGIANTS Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,035	Check out the new Home Theater Mag for a review of the new JVC

01-24-07, 01:27 PM	#9 \| Link
Jeff_DML Advanced Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 669	I turned on Black Frame Insertion(Fine Motion) on my Sharp D62 and so far havent noticed any difference. I have only watched a few sitcoms so not a good judgement. I still seem to see some judder and turning it off/on doesnt seem to make a difference. The network shows are video or film based? maybe I am see 24frames judder not the LCD related judder? I still want to watch some fast action sports with a lot of panning before deciding if it works or not.

02-10-08, 01:21 PM	#11 \| Link
aznboi04k Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 20	am i the only one that don't like 120hz lcd? i went to circuit city to check it out on a samsung 120hz lcd playing the incredibles in bluray. the video was silky smooth when there aren't much motion going on, like people standing still and talking, but when the scenes starts to move, the video quality looks terrible! the frame rate look like it drop from 120hz to maybe 30hz. i thought it was very jarring on my eyes. it felt like playing games on a computer that slows down when too much actions occur. i fine it better to have a 60hz lcd cause then your eye can compensate for the motion blur and it's not as noticeable when there are a lot of motion. am i the only one experiencing this phenomenon?

02-21-08, 07:02 AM	#12 \| Link
BBQTofu New Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2	120Hz sounded good on paper. However...is liquid crystal's response time fast enough to support 120 FPS? Is the final front of screen performance really at 120Hz? Most of the current advertised LCD response time is measured from gray to gray in measurement of mS (Funny how nobody has ever specified from what % of gray.). Maybe 120Hz makes more sense for faster display technology such as plasma or DLP. For LCD, I'm skeptical on the real performance benefits.

02-21-08, 07:34 AM	#13 \| Link
MrEastSide Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 431	120hz to me makes everything look like it's in fast forward. Terrible if you ask me. In the side by side demo some of the TVs have going I thought the normal side looked much more natural and better.

02-21-08, 08:57 AM	#14 \| Link
rocky01 Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: USA Posts: 195	Why not feed a 1080p 120hz signal from videocard and watch signal playing a film?