Why no OTA DVRs manufactured now?

[MikeSp]

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp

[huberjgl]

TiVo?

Series 3 can record OTA, both Analong NTSC and Digital ATSC including HD.


Jerry

[BigEasyHD]

Originally Posted by huberjgl

TiVo?

Series 3 can record OTA, both Analong NTSC and Digital ATSC including HD.


Jerry

I'm looking for an OTA DVR also, just checked out the Tivo and WOW! It's 800.00...no thanks. Anyone have any other suggestiones preferably in the sub 400 range?

[MikeSp]

Originally Posted by huberjgl

TiVo?

Series 3 can record OTA, both Analong NTSC and Digital ATSC including HD.


Jerry

I have to agree with BigEasyHD--$800 is waaaaaaaaay too high a price plus the monthly extortion fee for programming.

Somebody needs to manufacture a simple OTA DVR such as the discontinued DHG-HDD250/500 in the $400 range.

Here is a market that is completely open waiting for a few products to fill it.

MikeSp

[GodobeHD]

well the problem is the economics of it. A harddrive of that size (two years ago) cost easily over $300 and then adding a quality HD tuner, another $200, that didn't even include the software and R&D. So the cost of making them couldn't be less than $500 from Sony. We knew that BB and CC got HDD250 for more than $500 and HDD500 for more than $700. Tweeter had to get rid off the HDD500s on firesale prices like $250 a piece because they were not moving. I bet Sony and its retailers lost huge amount of money on these items. Why would anybody repeat such money losing venture?!

[DoubleDAZ]

Originally Posted by MikeSp

Here is a market that is completely open waiting for a few products to fill it.

I suspect that's just the problem, there really isn't much of a market, at least not at the moment. That's why anyone who was trying to fill it has discontinued their products. While DVRs are big in the cable/sat worlds, there are just too few OTA-only HD viewers. Then too, making a unit that is capable of both OTA and cable/sat appeals to a much wider audience willing to spend the $800 plus a relatively steep monthly fee. After the digital conversion is complete and more people have HDTVs, the landscape may change, though I doubt it. Even $400 is a pretty steep price for most OTA-only viewers just to record TV. Many OTA-only viewers either don't watch a lot of TV or are simply content with SD and their VCRs.

[Thomas Desmond]

$400 really isn't an unreasonable price. Really, even twice that (the $800 for the HD TiVo) isn't that bad, when you consider what we're paying for the rest of our HD gear. And, for those of us who have been around for a while, consider what the inflation adjusted prices would be today for our first VCRs and DVD players. My first VCR cost almost double what I'd paid for the TV it was connected to.

And if the marketplace worked the way it once did, I suspect that HD DVRs could sell for these prices and move off retail shelves. The problem is that the market has changed. Specifically, most buyers are now accustomed to seeing a subsidized upfront price for any sort of set top box. Cable and satellite will *give* them standard definition DVRs, with the price made up in the form of the subscription fees that they will pay over the next couple of years. Satellite has an upfront charge for HD DVRs...but that charge is relatively small, with the rest of the cost coming out of that two year commitment.

So the result is that the $699 OTA HD DVR lands on the shelves next to a $200 HD satellite DVR...and doesn't look like a very good deal. Never mind the fact that you'll be paying the $500 difference back to the satellite company in coming years...most folks don't think that far in advance.

But I must say that I'll be passing on the $800 HD TiVo. Not because I object to the $800 up front, but rather, because I object to the "extended" cost of the unit -- that $800 plus $12.99/month for the next three years comes up to over $1200.

[speedlaw]

Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond

$

So the result is that the $699 OTA HD DVR lands on the shelves next to a $200 HD satellite DVR...and doesn't look like a very good deal. Never mind the fact that you'll be paying the $500 difference back to the satellite company in coming years...most folks don't think that far in advance.

I think this is one reason. The others would be that right now, the companies are able to sell every box they can make to a cable or sat company-and that's good for a few reasons for the manufacturers. First, the production runs are assured of being sold...you are not at the whim of the retail market. Second, you have zero support, as the software is updated by the Sat/Cable company, so any "issues" that arise are theirs, not so much yours.

Setting up my sony HDD250 was fairly easy...for a geek with net newsgroups to research......J6P would be doomed, and that would result in massive returns of working units. The newsgroups for E* and D* are full of discussions of bugs and the most recent software downloads..........

Next, by artificial scarcity, the HD DVR appears more exotic than it deserves to be. It's a purpose built computer, not magik, but as the cherry atop two or three other tiers, it forces the monthy bill WAY up, kind of the same way the sunroof on a car is always part of some $3500 package.

Long term, the rentals are a huge bump to the cable/sat industry. The last thing they want to see is your personal DVR with a CableCard stuffed in the back. Bye bye Perpetual DVR fees-why encourage such things ?

There is also the possibility that a DVR in private hands, not at the tether of a "provider", might be easier to crack.....

Better to just quietly let the HD DVR be a "provider only" game.

Meanwhile, there's a huge gap in the big box store. Walls and walls of big screens, with some even tuned to a real HD signal......surrounded by a zillion normal dvd players. There is one Blu Ray and one HD DVD player...and they are not moving........

Meanwhile, there's no way to time shift the HD, unlike SD. This may be the first time in CE history that the powers that be want to force upon us less functionality.- Like time shifting is not sooooo 1987.

If there is an analog shut off in 2009 (I personally doubt it), then this will be noticed. Until then, I'm taking very good care of my HDD250

[Joseph Clark]

Originally Posted by MikeSp

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp

OK, so you said you'd rather not, but since you build you're own computers, look into the MyHD 130. It works in even old computers (I've put them in 450mhz PII's and PIII's for friends). With its remote, it even feels like a piece of CE gear. Plus, you get the ability to archive your recordings. I set one up for a friend who is completely computer-phobic and he has had almost no problems with it.

In a perfect world, we'd be able to walk into a Best Buy and pick up an HD DVR from an aisle full of such machines, just like we used to be able to pick up a VHS recorder. But it's no secret that Hollywood would simply rather we not record things at all. The computer based card gives you a lot of that old freedom back, and then some.

[pyedog]

Originally Posted by MikeSp

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

The Tivo is the only current model - might even be able to live with the $800 but the monthly free makes it way past stupid for OTA.

Other than an HTPC or eBay, you'll need to wait until next year. The law mandates that all DVD recorders with tuners must have ATSC tuners as well ... so by next summer you should have several units to choose from.

[AtlantisMichael]

Originally Posted by MikeSp

AFAIK (and I AM a noob at HDTV), it appears that there are currently no OTA DVRs manufactured now and I am curious as to why.

It appears that the Sony DHG-HDD250 is no longer manufactured unless I am mistaken.

What are my choices for an OTA DVR besides making my own PVR (rather not even though I build myown computers) and finding an EBay'd DHG-HDD250/500??

MikeSp

I saw some of the Sonys at Frys in Duluth a couple of weeks back. I do not recall the exact price, but know they were not marked down a lot. I have 2 units OTA only and my girlfriend has 2 on cable only. Have been very pleased with them. Even at the higher prices, I still come out ahead because of no cable fee, no digital upgrade fees, no rental fees,etc... To pay for cable and its related fees, that can be anywhere from $50.00 to $100.00 plus per month. You can see how quickly the fees add up per year, $600.00 to $1200.00 easily. So, even if a unit cost $1000.00, you would recoup that in short order.
I saw that Panasonic has a new unit coming out this year in Japan, and perhaps they may bring it out here as well. Here is a link to it:http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=18140
It is not cheap, but it is a true HDTV dvr and Blu-Ray unit, so I think the price is very reasonable when you consider those features.
Michael

[jlin]

DISH 622 receiver is only $200 to lease or $499 to buy.. plus 6 for the local fees (to get OTA programming channel info)

If you don't want the SAT channel.. add $5 for 'access fee'..

It's a little cheaper than Tivo's $13 a month fee.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by pyedog

Other than an HTPC or eBay, you'll need to wait until next year. The law mandates that all DVD recorders with tuners must have ATSC tuners as well ... so by next summer you should have several units to choose from.

Just because the law mandates that they must have ATSC tuners does not necessarily mean that they will be able to record an HD channel at full HD resolution (without downconverting or recompressing it) and then play it later at full HD resolution.

[archiguy]

Originally Posted by pyedog

Other than an HTPC or eBay, you'll need to wait until next year. The law mandates that all DVD recorders with tuners must have ATSC tuners as well ... so by next summer you should have several units to choose from.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Love to have one, but the monthly is too high. There's no doubt they could vastly increase their subscriber number if the fee were lower, say $7/month like my cable DVR fee, or even lower if they wanted to poach a percentage of cable customers who just want local channels in HD and have gotten used to a DVR. I guess they've done the math and figure that "TiVo people, and you know who you are" will accept no substitute and will willingly pay that price. But there just aren't that many of those folks. They'd be better off reducing the monthly fee, then trying other revenue streams that flow out of a increased subscriber base. But whadda' I know?

It is hard to believe nobody but TiVo is making them anymore. Amazing. There's a market, albeit a relatively small one, that everybody is just ignoring.

[Matt_Stevens]

I'd pay good money for a Cable card (version 2) box that did OTA also and could be used instead of the POS Scientific Atlanta 8300, as long as it had Firewire outputs.

[archiguy]

Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens

I'd pay good money for a Cable card (version 2) box that did OTA also and could be used instead of the POS Scientific Atlanta 8300, as long as it had Firewire outputs.

I certainly don't think my SA8300HD-DVR is a POS. I think it's a pretty darn fine box, all things considered. My only complaint with it is it doesn't seem capable of delivering full HD resolution. Others have commented on it's practical limitation of around 1300-1400 lines of resolution, and I've got a TV (Sony 34XBR910) that can resolve pretty much all 1920. But it performs its assigned functions like a champ, and the interface, while not TiVo elegant, works fine for me.

But it's not surprising we'd disagree about this box, Matt. I love my JVC 40k tape deck, too (actually a rebadged Marantz MV8300), and we all know how you feel about 'em.

[timecop]

Uh, what?
Not delivering full resolution?
What would be the point of having a mpeg decoder chipset which would NOT decode at full resolution??

And your TV is CRT anyway, you'd be lucky if it actually has 1080 lines of vertical resolution.

[rdwalt]

I just built my first HTPC with a MyHD MDP-130. I spent about $600 and absoutely love it.

[archiguy]

Originally Posted by timecop

Uh, what?
Not delivering full resolution?
What would be the point of having a mpeg decoder chipset which would NOT decode at full resolution??

I'm just telling you what others (see some of "John Mason" 's posts on this issue) have measured using test patterns. There's some filtering going on in there and we're not getting the full 1920 lines out of the box.

Originally Posted by timecop

And your TV is CRT anyway, you'd be lucky if it actually has 1080 lines of vertical resolution.

My TV has what Sony calls a "super-fine apature grill" and is one of those that can resolve full HD resolutions. They made one more model like this, the XBR960, and then stopped putting that tube in CRT TV's. Too expensive, I guess.

[videobruce]

Even $400 is a pretty steep price for most OTA-only viewers just to record TV.

My first VHS video recorder in 1978 was $1,000. Blank tapes were $25. It had a 69 channel OTA and a 12 channel cable tuner.
$800 and especially $400 is dirt cheap for what they do (other than that ridiculous monthly fee). You 'kids' under 35 don't know how well off you are.

To answer the question; greed. Between the NCTA, Hollywood and anyone else that has their hand in the copyright 'pot' they are all worried about someone making a copy of their precious program or movie without paying them for it.
The other part of the equation is lack of proper marketing through the manufactires. There isn't any real reason a DVR couldn't sell for under $500.

People are paying twice that for just a DVD player .

[huberjgl]

Originally Posted by videobruce

My first VHS video recorder in 1978 was $1,000. Blank tapes were $25. It had a 69 channel OTA and a 12 channel cable tuner.

And it was HUGE, easily 2x the size of the latest VHS machines, 3-4 times the size of today's DVD recorders.

First one we got had a pushbutton tuner, each button had to be tuned with a thumbwheel, and little plastic numbers dropped into a slot to designate what channel each button tuned.
Got it sometime in the early 80's.


Jerry

[Rammitinski]

Originally Posted by huberjgl

And it was HUGE, easily 2x the size of the latest VHS machines, 3-4 times the size of today's DVD recorders.

First one we got had a pushbutton tuner, each button had to be tuned with a thumbwheel, and little plastic numbers dropped into a slot to designate what channel each button tuned.
Got it sometime in the early 80's.


Jerry

Had a GE just like that (2-head mono) from around the same time period.

Wore the heck out of it and still got about 5x the amount of usage from it compared to any model I've had since then .

[sivartk]

Originally Posted by speedlaw

Better to just quietly let the HD DVR be a "provider only" game.

Great! Does that mean I can go down to my local TV stations and ask for an HD DVR? Will they rent one to me for $5 a month? After all, they are my "provider" of the HD signal that I watch. I wonder what their answer would be.

I will take care of both of my DHG-HDD250's. If I knew that they (Time/TVGOS) would work after Feb 17, 2009 (official analog shut off), I would probably buy a couple more as "back ups"

[sivartk]

Originally Posted by Erik Garci

Just because the law mandates that [DVD Recorders] must have ATSC tuners does not necessarily mean that they will be able to record an HD channel at full HD resolution (without downconverting or recompressing it) and then play it later at full HD resolution.

Exactly, although I think that it mandates that they have an ATSC tuner or no tuner at all.

What would be nice (and keep the studios happy) would be a DVD Recorder that:

1) Has an ATSC and QAM tuner (don't care for NTSC, but would take it)
2) Recorded HD video to a hard drive (500GB/750GB)
3) Could downcovert to a DVD+/-R at 480i/p (keep the studios happy)

This would mean that I could watch my shows that I record in HD, but if I wanted to archive, it would only be "DVD Quality."

I can only wait and watch.

[Blessedon]

Noob here, sorry in advance for the dumb questions.
[quote}If there is an analog shut off in 2009 (I personally doubt it), then this will be noticed. Until then, I'm taking very good care of my HDD250[/quote]
Are you saying the HDD250 or 500 won't work after the analog cut-off?
Does it record in 1080i?
Can I download from it in HD to my computer for burning onto a disc?

I read the threads, I guess I'm not up to speed yet. Sorry.

[sivartk]

Are you saying the HDD250 or 500 won't work after the analog cut-off?
It will still work, but functionality may be limited as it receives its programming and time from an analog signal that won't exist. Will still work as an HDTV (ATSC/QAM) tuner just fine.

Does it record in 1080i?
It records in the format of the broadcast up to 1080i

Can I download from it in HD to my computer for burning onto a disc?
No, not that I am aware of. Of course you could output through an analog output and burn to a disc, but the quality would no longer be HD.

[hall]

Originally Posted by timecop

Uh, what?
Not delivering full resolution?
What would be the point of having a mpeg decoder chipset which would NOT decode at full resolution??

I thought it was related to available RAM (and video RAM) in the set-top ?? It was worse on the 8000HD as it had less memory to begin with. Then there was mention of the number of "drivers" that the cableco downloads to ALL set-tops regardless of whether or not it was used in that set-top itself. What kind of OS loads unneeded drivers into RAM ??

[mushusker]

Originally Posted by Joseph Clark

OK, so you said you'd rather not, but since you build you're own computers, look into the MyHD 130. It works in even old computers (I've put them in 450mhz PII's and PIII's for friends). With its remote, it even feels like a piece of CE gear. Plus, you get the ability to archive your recordings. I set one up for a friend who is completely computer-phobic and he has had almost no problems with it.
... The computer based card gives you a lot of that old freedom back, and then some.

I too was looking for something like the Sony DVR, but not finding any, am thinking of building an HTPC. Would much prefer Linux over the MS tax (i.e., Windows), but I don't see many reports on the forum about video quality with MythTV, specifically scaling, deinterlacing, and color space. I would like the scaling quality to be on par with the scaler in my Panasonic S97 DVD player.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by sivartk

3) Could downcovert to a DVD+/-R at 480i/p (keep the studios happy)

As for unencrypted OTA and QAM channels, there is no need to downconvert them. If a manufacturer wanted to, they could legally make a DVD recorder that burns them at full-res HD onto a DVD+/-R (although a show might not totally fit on just one disc), regardless of what the studios want.

As for encrypted QAM cable channels, the manufacturer would be contractually required to follow the copy-protection flags, such as "copy freely," "copy once," and "copy never." Regardless of whether or not it downconverts, it still has to follow the flags.

[Erik Garci]

Originally Posted by sivartk

Of course you could output through an analog output and burn to a disc, but the quality would no longer be HD.

It would no longer be HD unless you have a computer that can record analog HD signals.