HD DVD movie disc size thread

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Just for the hell of it, I loaded up the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive on my MacBook with Vista beta installed to check out the sizes of my HD DVDs.

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Complete list so far of disc sizes reported in this thread:

12 Monkeys: 21.9 GiB - 23 532 732 416 bytes
2 Fast 2 Furious: 21.2 GiB - 22 857 646 080 bytes
The Adventures Of Robin Hood: 27.2 GB - 29 238 362 112 bytes
Apollo 13: 27.6 GiB - 29 643 898 880 bytes
Batman Begins: 24.8 GiB - 26 637 697 024 bytes
Blazing Saddles: 25.4 GiB - 27 279 753 216 bytes
Caddyshack: 19.7 GiB - 19 315 032 064 bytes
Casablanca: 22.4 GiB - 24 411 897 856 bytes
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: 26.6 GiB - 28 594 405 376 bytes
Chronicles of Riddick: 26.3 GiB - 28 246 081 536
Constantine: 21.9 GiB - 23 585 423 360 bytes
Corpse Bride: 19.0 GiB - 20 497 760 256 bytes
The Dirty Dozen: 27.6 GiB - 29 692 461 056 bytes
End Of Days: 27.7 GiB - 29 766 647 808 bytes
Excalibur: 19.2 GiB - 20 639 776 768 bytes
Fast Times At Ridgemont High: 12.6 GiB - 13 579 911 168 bytes
The Fast And The Furious: 27.5 GiB - 29 612 965 888 bytes
Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas: 22.6 GiB - 24 271 781 888 bytes
The Frighteners: 25.7GiB - 27 640 059 904 bytes (Documentary 7.62 GiB, Main Feature 17.1 GiB)
The Fugitive: 18.2 GiB - 19 560 988 672 bytes
Grand Prix: 22.3 GiB - 23 962 320 896 bytes
Happy Feet: 14.8 GiB - 15 912 293 191 bytes
Happy Gilmore: 15.1 GiB - 16 233 070 592 bytes
The Italian Job: 24.1 GiB - 25 893 535 744 bytes
Jarhead: 24.7 GiB - 26 563 248 128 bytes.
King Kong: 27.4 GiB - 29 482 090 496 bytes
The Last Samurai: 27.3 GiB - 29 348 200 448 bytes
The Manchurian Candidate: 27.0 GiB - 29 061 021 696 bytes
Mission Impossible: III Disk 1: 26.7 GiB - 28 771 549 184 bytes
Mission Impossible: III Disk 2: 22.6 GiB - 24 372 641 792 bytes
Pitch Black: 21.3 GiB - 22 956 670 976 bytes
The Polar Express: 13.0 GiB - 14 009 499 648 bytes
Ray: 27.0 GiB - 29 091 430 400 bytes
Seabiscuit: 25.3 GiB - 27 192 066 048 bytes
The Searchers: 27.8 GiB - 29 869 342 720 bytes
Serenity: 19.6 GiB - 21 070 675 968 bytes
Spartacus: 27.6 GiB - 29 655 302 144 bytes
Swordfish: 18.4 GiB - 19 812 646 912 bytes
The Thing: 25.6 GiB - 27 549 171 712 bytes
Tomb Raider: 26.0 GiB - 27 938 652 160 bytes
Training Day: 22.5 GiB - 24 214 634 496 bytes
Troy: 22.6 GB - 24 311 234 560 bytes
U2 - Rattle & Hum: 17.2 GiB - 18 567 331 840 bytes
U-571: 23.2 GiB - 24 999 755 766 bytes
Under Siege: 17.4 GiB - 18 735 300 608 bytes
Unforgiven: 25.7 GiB - 27 656 454 144 bytes
Van Helsing: 25.4 GiB - 27 365 212 160 bytes
We Were Soldiers: 27.1 GiB - 29 150 216 192 bytes

The smallest is Fast Times At Ridgemont High (12.6 GiB).
The biggest is The Searchers (27.8 GiB).

There are only two HD15s on the list, those being Fast Times At Ridgemont High (12.6 GiB) and The Polar Express (13.0 GiB).

The longest movie is King Kong at 3 hours and 8 minutes (27.4 GiB).

---

Note that 1 GiB = 1 Gibibyte, which is 1 073 741 824 bytes (1024 x 1024 x 1024). "Gibibyte" is the same as a "Gigabyte" on a hard disk. However, the convention is different for optical disks.

For example, a 4.7 GB DVD-R only holds 4.38 GiB on your hard disk. HD15 is 15 GB = 15 Gigabytes, which by convention for optical discs is 15 000 000 000 bytes or approximately 13.97 GiB.

ie. HD15 is actually less than 14 GiB, and HD30 is less than 28 GiB.

That is why Happy Feet (14.8 GiB) is on a dual-layer HD DVD.

[MarekM]

probably one of the reasons they didn't put DolbyTrueHD on KingKong

Marek

[ryoohki]

Lol would Universal had put it even if it were more space available so far we have 2 title from universal with it that's all. Now if all of them would have it, this would be another thing..

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by MarekM

probably one of the reasons they didn't put DolbyTrueHD on KingKong

Isn't Kong 1.5 Mbps DD+?

[darinp2]

I was hoping somebody would do this with recent titles.

Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy

Isn't Kong 1.5 Mbps DD+?

I believe so. If we figure some overhead to put the total for the movie at 29,000,000,000 then we can get a reasonable estimate of the average bitrate for everything for the 187 minute feature (I'll assume 1000 and not 1024)

187 minutes = 11220 seconds
29,000MB / 11220 = 2.58MB/sec
2.58MB/sec * 8bits/Byte = 20.7Mbps

With 1.5 Mbps DD+ and another track that is probably 640k, along with IME, that is probably somewhere around 5Mbps besides video. So, close to 16Mbps for video average, with peaks most likely at 30Mbps minus whatever those other things add up to. If it was 5Mbps, that would be 25Mbps peaks for video, or close to the 50% higher than ABR rule of thumb that Amir mentioned. In this case, using TrueHD would make them lower the video average, but would have more impact on peak. Especially if they left the DD+ in because players aren't required to decode 5.1 from TrueHD for HD DVD (even though current players do).

--Darin

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Besides KK being an A-list movie, I wonder if MS chose it because of its length. Yes it does use a lot of disc capacity, but nonetheless it is a title that includes a 1.5 Mbps Dolby Digital Plus audio track and reference level video that some have labelled "frame perfect".

Interestingly, your calculations remind me why I think we may see some 2nd tier movies show up in 2007 on HD15.

100 minutes = 6000 seconds
15 000 000 000 = 14305 MB
14305/6000 = 2.38 MB/s = 19.1 Mbps

With two 640 Kbps Dolby Digital Plus tracks along with IME, that is probably somewhere around 4 Mbps not including the main movie video. So, that's close to 15 Mbps average for the main movie video, with peaks around 23 Mbps.

ie. 100+ minutes will be fine for HD15, unless it's a long movie or you want lots of extras.

[PRO-630HD]

Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy

Just for the hell of it, I loaded up the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive on my MacBook with Vista beta installed to check out the sizes of my HD DVDs.

Corpse Bride: 19.0 GB (20 497 760 256)
King Kong: 27.4 GB (29 482 090 496)
MI:3 Disk 1: 26.7 GB (28 771 549 184)
MI:3 Disk 2: 22.6 GB (24 372 641 792)
Pitch Black: 21.3 GB (22 956 670 976)
The Thing: 25.6 GB (27 549 171 712)
Unforgiven: 25.7 GB (27 656 454 144)

Not surprisingly, the 3 hour 8 minute long King Kong was the largest.

So, what's the max disc size? Is it ~30 000 000 000 bytes / 27.9 GB? Or is it 30 GB?
ie. Is King Kong (nearly) maxing out HD DVD's capacity?

Great Info! Supply more disc rates please!

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

Great Info! Supply more disc rates please!

Those are sizes, not rates. And I can't provide any more, cuz those are all the ones I own.

[digitalpcht]

Well just figured I'd toss a few in:

12 Monkeys: 21.9 GB - 23,532,732,416 bytes
2 Fast 2 Furious: 21.2 GB - 22,857,646,080 bytes
The Adventures Of Robin Hood: 27.2 GB - 29,238,362,112 bytes
Apollo 13: 27.6 GB - 29,643,898,880 bytes
Blazing Saddles: 25.4 GB - 27,279,753,216 bytes
Caddyshack: 19.7 GB - 19,315,032,064 bytes
Constantine: 21.9 GB - 23,585,423,360 bytes
The Dirty Dozen: 27.6 GB - 29,692,461,056 bytes
End Of Days: 27.7 GB - 29,766,647,808 bytes
Excalibur: 19.2 GB - 20,639,776,768 bytes
Fast Times At Ridgemont High: 12.6 GB - 13,579,911,168 bytes
The Fast And The Furious: 27.5 GB - 29,612,965,888 bytes
Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas: 22.6 GB - 24,271,781,888 bytes
The Fugitive: 18.2 GB - 19,560,988,672 bytes
Grand Prix: 22.3 GB - 23,962,320,896 bytes
Happy Gilmore: 15.1 GB - 16,233,070,592 bytes
The Italian Job: 24.1 GB - 25,893,535,744 bytes
The Last Samurai: 27.3 GB - 29,348,200,448 bytes
The Manchurian Candidate: 27.0 GB - 29,061,021,696 bytes
The Polar Express: 13.0 GB - 14,009,499,648 bytes
Ray: 27.0 GB - 29,091,430,400 bytes
Seabiscuit: 25.3 GB - 27,192,066,048 bytes
The Searchers: 27.8 GB - 29,869,342,720 bytes
Serenity: 19.6 GB - 21,070,675,968 bytes
Swordfish: 18.4 GB - 19,812,646,912 bytes
Tomb Raider: 26.0 GB - 27,938,652,160 bytes
Training Day: 22.5 GB - 24,214,634,496 bytes
U2 - Rattle & Hum: 17.2 GB - 18,567,331,840 bytes
U-571: 23.2 GB - 24,999,755,766 bytes
Under Siege: 17.4 GB - 18,735,300,608 bytes
Van Helsing: 25.4 GB - 27,365,212,160 bytes
Waterworld: 17.4 GB - 18,783,469,568 bytes
We Were Soldiers: 27.1 GB - 29,150,216,192 bytes

[bobgpsr]

A few more:

Batman Begins: 24.8 GB (26,637,697,024 bytes)
Spartacus: 27.6 GB (29,655,302,144 bytes)
Troy: 22.6 GB (24,311,234,560 bytes)
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: 26.6 GB (28,594,405,376 bytes)

Any requests? My collection is listed in the Movie Collections thread (although my son has borrowed Serenity and PB).

Bob

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Wowsers!

It looks like the new #1 largest disc is The Searchers (119 min) at 27.8 GB.
I guess HD30 must mean ~30 000 000 000 bytes or 27.9 GB.

Fast Times at Ridgemont High (12.6) and The Polar Express (13 GB) are (or can be) the only HD15s here.
Interestingly, The Polar Express is exactly the 100 minutes I was talking about above.
I'm assuming Happy Gilmore (15.1 GB) is too big for HD15.

12 Monkeys: 21.9 GB - 23,532,732,416 bytes
2 Fast 2 Furious: 21.2 GB - 22,857,646,080 bytes
The Adventures Of Robin Hood: 27.2 GB - 29,238,362,112 bytes
Apollo 13: 27.6 GB - 29,643,898,880 bytes
Batman Begins: 24.8 GB - 26,637,697,024 bytes
Blazing Saddles: 25.4 GB - 27,279,753,216 bytes
Caddyshack: 19.7 GB - 19,315,032,064 bytes
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: 26.6 GB - 28,594,405,376 bytes
Constantine: 21.9 GB - 23,585,423,360 bytes
Corpse Bride: 19.0 GB - 20 497 760 256 bytes
The Dirty Dozen: 27.6 GB - 29,692,461,056 bytes
End Of Days: 27.7 GB - 29,766,647,808 bytes
Excalibur: 19.2 GB - 20,639,776,768 bytes
Fast Times At Ridgemont High: 12.6 GB - 13,579,911,168 bytes
The Fast And The Furious: 27.5 GB - 29,612,965,888 bytes
Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas: 22.6 GB - 24,271,781,888 bytes
The Fugitive: 18.2 GB - 19,560,988,672 bytes
Grand Prix: 22.3 GB - 23,962,320,896 bytes
Happy Gilmore: 15.1 GB - 16,233,070,592 bytes
The Italian Job: 24.1 GB - 25,893,535,744 bytes
King Kong: 27.4 GB - 29 482 090 496 bytes
The Last Samurai: 27.3 GB - 29,348,200,448 bytes
The Manchurian Candidate: 27.0 GB - 29,061,021,696 bytes
Mission Impossible: III Disk 1: 26.7 GB - 28 771 549 184 bytes
Mission Impossible: III Disk 2: 22.6 GB - 24 372 641 792 bytes
Pitch Black: 21.3 GB - 22 956 670 976 bytes
The Polar Express: 13.0 GB - 14,009,499,648 bytes
Ray: 27.0 GB - 29,091,430,400 bytes
Seabiscuit: 25.3 GB - 27,192,066,048 bytes
The Searchers: 27.8 GB - 29,869,342,720 bytes
Serenity: 19.6 GB - 21,070,675,968 bytes
Spartacus: 27.6 GB - 29,655,302,144 bytes
Swordfish: 18.4 GB - 19,812,646,912 bytes
The Thing: 25.6 GB - 27 549 171 712 bytes
Tomb Raider: 26.0 GB - 27,938,652,160 bytes
Training Day: 22.5 GB - 24,214,634,496 bytes
Troy: 22.6 GB - 24,311,234,560 bytes
U2 - Rattle & Hum: 17.2 GB - 18,567,331,840 bytes
U-571: 23.2 GB - 24,999,755,766 bytes
Under Siege: 17.4 GB - 18,735,300,608 bytes
Unforgiven: 25.7 GB - 27 656 454 144 bytes
Van Helsing: 25.4 GB - 27,365,212,160 bytes
We Were Soldiers: 27.1 GB - 29,150,216,192 bytes

[WirelessGuru]

Not to hijack this thread, but since it was discussed, quick question... is DD+ a required standard for HD-DVD or is it the minimum standard.... meaning if they choose to put TrueHD on a title, does it still have to offer DD+?

[MSmith83]

Originally Posted by WirelessGuru

Not to hijack this thread, but since it was discussed, quick question... is DD+ a required standard for HD-DVD or is it the minimum standard.... meaning if they choose to put TrueHD on a title, does it still have to offer DD+?

According to Dolby's write-up found here on page six, HD DVD discs can have a sole soundtrack of DD, DD Plus or Dolby TrueHD, because decoding of these formats are required on the player side. That said, I believe every current and planned HD DVD disc has a DD Plus track.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

While EVERY player must decode TrueHD, it only needs to support TrueHD 2.0. Note though that every current player (including the Xbox 360) can decode full multi-channel TrueHD, and at least re-encode it for 5.1 output (Toshiba's re-encode is to DTS 5.1 I believe, and Microsoft's is to DD 5.1).

P.S. How does this TrueHD 2.0 support work with TrueHD 5.1 tracks? Would it work at all? Or would it just output the left and right channels? My guess is the most logical solution would be for this hypothetical machine to decode it and then convert it to 2.0 stereo, so all the surround info and centre channel info would be correctly mixed in.

[MSmith83]

Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy

P.S. How does this TrueHD 2.0 support work with TrueHD 5.1 tracks? Would it work at all? Or would it just output the left and right channels? My guess is the most logical solution would be for this hypothetical machine to decode it and then convert it to 2.0 stereo, so all the surround info and centre channel info would be correctly mixed in.

Yes, in that case, the 5.1 or 7.1 TrueHD tracks are simply and correctly downmixed to 2.0 stereo. And I'm sure Dolby was aware that players must only decode two-channel TrueHD.

[WirelessGuru]

Sorry... like I said, I don't want to change the direction of a great thread into another audio format debate thread... The reason behind my question was because if DD+ is required and TrueHD has to be "in addition to DD+", I can see disc space preventing TrueHD from being an option on longer running films. I guess this isn't the case as posted above so all is well

It's pretty cool you are able to determine the amount of data on each disc Bugs... thanks for the info.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by WirelessGuru

It's pretty cool you are able to determine the amount of data on each disc Bugs... thanks for the info.

The only ones I looked at were in my first post. My later post is just a combo of my post and the posts from the others.

Anyone with Vista installed can do this.

[Gary Murrell]

so we have a 2.40:1 movie King Kong coming in at 27.4GB
we have another 2.40:1 movie MI:3 coming in at 26.7GB

both have equal extras on disc and both have DD+ with Spanish,French and English

basically identical discs layout.....

but King Kong is over 1 hour longer, 62 mins to be exact, this is exactly why KK is the first HD-DVD that I have seen artifacts present

3+ hours for a 30GB is too much IMHO

-Gary

[TomsHT]

I would like to see what bitrates were used for each of these movies too.

[Luke212]

Blue ray are always talking about BR50 Discs. How come there is no buzz of HD45 or HD60 Disks around here? Is it much further off?

I would also add, that it seems rather coincidental that many of those disks are coming up to max capacity. What it really means is that movies are already running out of space and there is no doubt a larger disc would provide better quality.

[TomsHT]

Originally Posted by Luke212

Blue ray are always talking about BR50 Discs. How come there is no buzz of HD45 or HD60 Disks around here? Is it much further off?

I would also add, that it seems rather coincidental that many of those disks are coming up to max capacity. What it really means is that movies are already running out of space and there is no doubt a larger disc would provide better quality.

Thats not necessarily true of either format. There gonna used what space is available, thats not to say they couldnt have lowered bitrates even more on many of those titles

[TomsHT]

As to TL45's not much has been mentioned about them lately. They say they can be made but unless the DVD Forum actually votes on it and approves it, it stays in vapor land

[MSmith83]

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell

so we have a 2.40:1 movie King Kong coming in at 27.4GB
we have another 2.40:1 movie MI:3 coming in at 26.7GB

both have equal extras on disc and both have DD+ with Spanish,French and English

basically identical discs layout.....

but King Kong is over 1 hour longer, 62 mins to be exact, this is exactly why KK is the first HD-DVD that I have seen artifacts present

3+ hours for a 30GB is too much IMHO

-Gary

I think your assessment is kind of flawed from a mathematical standpoint. You, I, and many others agree that many single-layer HD discs that are part of an HD/SD combo look superb. Many of these discs are of movies that are more than half the length of King Kong.

Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, for instance, doesn't appear to be starving for more space and I think that you would agree. Yet the movie is 103 minutes long. King Kong is 188 minutes long. Thus, Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang is over half the length on a disc that's half the storage space. (103/188) x 100 = 55%.

Of course, this is keeping everything else constant, like the audio bitrate and needed bandwidth for video for a particular encode. But, according to your logic, 30 GB should be sufficient for most movies that are the length of King Kong. I would guess that MI: 3 has much more superfluous bandwidth in the encode than King Kong, and that may explain the similar amount of space being used for the two discs.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by TomsHT

I would like to see what bitrates were used for each of these movies too.

I would too, but I can't test that.

Originally Posted by Luke212

Blue ray are always talking about BR50 Discs. How come there is no buzz of HD45 or HD60 Disks around here? Is it much further off?

HD 45 is vapourware. HD 60 is just a pipe dream.

Originally Posted by Luke212

I would also add, that it seems rather coincidental that many of those disks are coming up to max capacity. What it really means is that movies are already running out of space and there is no doubt a larger disc would provide better quality.

As someone else said, sometimes they're just gonna use whatever's available.

[boden11]

Don't forget that codec improvements will reduce bitrates and improve PQ. I'm sure they can wrestle another 10-20%+ out of it --imagine 3-6 more GB of space on a disc!

[GeorgeLV]

Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy

Wowsers!

It looks like the new #1 largest disc is The Searchers (119 min) at 27.8 GB.
I guess HD30 must mean ~30 000 000 000 bytes or 27.9 GB.

Fast Times at Ridgemont High (12.6) and The Polar Express (13 GB) are (or can be) the only HD15s here.
Interestingly, The Polar Express is exactly the 100 minutes I was talking about above.
I'm assuming Happy Gilmore (15.1 GB) is too big for HD15.

According to Hi-def Digest, Happy Gilmore is a HD15. http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/happygilmore.html

If that's the case, I'm guess the extra 2GB or so of space that is left on titles like King Kong is so they can use the same encode for the eventual Europe release which would presumably have a few more language tracks that the English/French needed for the US/Canada market.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by GeorgeLV

According to Hi-def Digest, Happy Gilmore is a HD15. http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/happygilmore.html

If that's the case, I'm guess the extra 2GB or so of space that is left on titles like King Kong is so they can use the same encode for the eventual Europe release which would presumably have a few more language tracks that the English/French needed for the US/Canada market.

Hmmm... Interesting.

Or maybe 15 GB is really 15 GB, but 30 GB isn't really 30 GB? Sort of like how DVD SL is 4.38 GB, but DVD DL is 7.96 GB?

[lostsoldier]

I was just thinking that since you used a computer to measure, then:

1,073,741,824 bytes equals one Gigabyte-Microsoft definition
1,000,000,000 bytes equals one Gigabyte-Telecommunication Definition

1,048,576 bytes equals one Megabyte-Microsoft definition
1,000,000 bytes equals one Megabyte-SI and IEC definition
1,024,000 bytes equals one Megabyte-Maxell, 3M Storage definition

[swifty7]

I love this thread, very informative.

[digitalpcht]

These came to me in a dream....spooky

12 Monkeys: Video Rate: 20.999 Mbps
2 Fast 2 Furious: Video Rate: 21.999 Mbps
The Adventures Of Robin Hood: Video Rate: 25.999 Mbps
Apollo 13: Video Rate: 21.999 Mbps
Blazing Saddles: Video Rate: 26.499 Mbps
Caddyshack:Video Rate: 26.999 Mbps
Constantine: Video Rate: 18.999 Mbps
Corpse Bride: Video Rate: 25.499 Mbps
The Dirty Dozen: Video Rate: 24.999 Mbps
End Of Days: Video Rate: 22.249 Mbps
Excalibur: Video Rate: 25.999 Mbps
Fast Times At Ridgemont High: Video Rate: 25.999 Mbps
The Fast And The Furious: Video Rate: 19.999 Mbps
Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas: Video Rate: 20.999 Mbps
The Fugitive: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
Grand Prix: Video Rate: 23.599 Mbps
Happy Gilmore: Video Rate: 25.499 Mbps
The Italian Job: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
King Kong: Video Rate: 23.499 Mbps
The Last Samurai: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
The Manchurian Candidate: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
The Polar Express: Video Rate: 22.999 Mbps
Ray: Video Rate: 24.999 Mbps
Seabiscuit: Video Rate: 23.499 Mbps
The Searchers: Video Rate: 27.499 Mbps
Serenity: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
Swordfish: Video Rate: 26.499 Mbps
The Thing: 20.999 Mbps
Tomb Raider: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
Training Day: Video Rate: 22.999 Mbps
U2 - Rattle & Hum: Video Rate: 25.499 Mbps
U-571: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps
Under Siege: Video Rate: 25.999 Mbps
Unforgiven: Video Rate: 23.499 Mbps
Van Helsing: Video Rate: 24.999 Mbps
Waterworld: Video Rate: 20.999 Mbps
We Were Soldiers: Video Rate: 24.000 Mbps