Bluray does not support 1080p30!! Did not know this!

[rdjam]

Hi Folks,

I was browsing the posts this morning and bumped into a story about the Nine Inch Nails concert video being released on both HD DVD and Bluray.

It was filmed using progressive (non-interlaced) 1080p cameras, which are becoming the latest thing now. As you know, these record in 1080p30, instead of 1080i60.

Now the HD DVD is being released as 1080p30.

BUT... the Bluray disc version is being released as 1080i60 because Bluray cannot support progressive video at 1080p30.

Whoooaahh...

Stacey confirmed this here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8916888

[kschmit2]

from the BD ROM A/V specs:



I'm truly disappointed

[SBrooks1]

Could someone explain this in layman's terms why this is such a disappointing thing for Blu-ray? Thanks!

[ShagMan]

Yeah... I see 24p and 60i, what else do you need?

[William]

Originally Posted by ShagMan

Yeah... I see 24p and 60i, what else do you need?

If it was shot at 1080p 30Hz you would NEED 1080p 30Hz or 1080p 60Hz to show native.

[pete4]

Well, I'm not sure if you realize that 1080i60 and 1080p30, done properly, is exactly the same thing as long as the source is recorded progressively? You take one full frame of 1080p video, split it into 2 interlaced fields and record on disc. During playback, both interlaced fields should be reassembled into one full frame, exactly the way it was when recorded and maybe double the frame rate to 60 Hz. Of course the key word here is "if done properly", because you could also reassemble field number 2 of frame 1 with field number 1 of frame 2 and have horrible motion artifacts. Also I don't understand why they have to have 1080i60, why not simply double the frame rate and record 1080p60? Do those people know what are they doing??? Not many TV's can handle 30 frame rate anyway and most of the time 1080p30 needs to be changed to 1080p60 by the player before the signal goes to TV. It's not like BR discs don't have enough space to handle extra data?

[trbarry]

1080p30 is still fairly uncommon so I don't know of any current deinterlacing chips that can deinterlace or inverse telecine 1080i60 back to 1080p30. It is not really hard to do. For instance my UnComb filter on my web page does it simply. But you first have to know that you are even supposed to do it and any automatic detection of that vs all the other forms of deinterlacing and inverse telecine can get tricky. So I sort of doubt most TV's can do it correctly yet. But hopefully I'm wrong.

- Tom

[rdjam]

Originally Posted by SBrooks1

Could someone explain this in layman's terms why this is such a disappointing thing for Blu-ray? Thanks!

It's always better to save the video to the disc in the original native format.

For instance, if HD DVD was saving movies to disc as 1080i60, instead of 1080p24, this point would be (rightly) highlighted as an oversight.
Film is native 1080p24.

Video, at 1080p30, should be saved in it's original format also.

Even though the video could be theoretically reassembled by a VP or your TV set, it represents an unusual format that most TVs probably might not understand how to re-assemble - as they would not likely EXPECT to have come across 1080i60 video that DOESN'T have interfield motion.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by trbarry

1080p30 is still fairly uncommon so I don't know of any current deinterlacing chips that can deinterlace or inverse telecine 1080i60 back to 1080p30. It is not really hard to do. For instance my UnComb filter on my web page does it simply. But you first have to know that you are even supposed to do it and any automatic detection of that vs all the other forms of deinterlacing and inverse telecine can get tricky. So I sort of doubt most TV's can do it correctly yet. But hopefully I'm wrong.

But, since it will be sent to the TV as 1080i/60 or 1080p/60, wouldn't this mean you need 1080p/60 to be safe?


Gary

[blitz6speed]

What a blow to Blu-Ray! A concert in HD will have to be 1080i60! STOP THE BLU-RAY DISC MACHINES!! This is it!

Why dont you petition HD-DVD to have playback at oh, i dont know,1080p24? Oh thats right, ITS NOT IN THE SPEC FOR THE HARDWARE. And none of HD-DVD players in existance or being made do 1080p24. Theres plenty for Blu-Ray. Of course, that would be the best solution in terms of FILM, which is what these devices were mainly intended for. But hey, you get 1080i30! ROCKIN!!! Seriously, this thread is so hilarious on so many levels.

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

And none of HD-DVD players in existance or being made do 1080p24.

People has been successfully doing 24p/72p from HD DVD for a long time either by using software player or video processor. HD DVD player with 24p output feature will come shortly. It is certainly in their agenda otherwise why bother discussing it under a special DVD Forum meeting early this Nov? I expect 24p to be a standard feature next year for players from both camp. AFAIK, the only two 24p capable blu-ray players has not on the market yet.

BTW, both HD DVD and blu-ray are encoded at 24p for film. This no 30p in spec thing might force blu-ray to encode it as 60i which might mean they have to convert the 30p master into 60i before sending it into the encoder. If this is true, will it make any difference for the end user? I personally don't think so. But some blu-ray supporters and Joe Kane disagree. Thelion?

Hope some insiders could clarify the situation.

[Ollie W. Holmes]

The impact of this is the inability to burn 30p home videos to BD AND have it play on a BD player. Note the AND. Thus, if you own a new HD camera such as the Canon XH-A1, you have to figure out some other means of distribution. The bleeding edge of technology has its price. Everything is always a year away or 365 days late.

It may have been envisioned that 30p would be subsumed by 60p, in the BD camp. A slight waste of bandwidth, but who cares if you have the space?

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by Ollie W. Holmes

It may have been envisioned that 30p would be subsumed by 60p, in the BD camp. A slight waste of bandwidth, but who cares if you have the space?

60p native will never be the thing for bluray/hd dvd. They need to get 10bit/48p first.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by rdjam

Now the HD DVD is being released as 1080p30.

BUT... the Bluray disc version is being released as 1080i60 because Bluray cannot support progressive video at 1080p30.

True, but I would point out that though Blu-ray does not support native 1080p30 video that it does support native 1080p24 video. HD DVD on the other hand does not support native 1080p24 video, which I consider to be more of a problem. Now of course you can use flags with 1080i60 to indicate that it is 24 fps or 30 fps video.

Originally Posted by rdjam

For instance, if HD DVD was saving movies to disc as 1080i60, instead of 1080p24, this point would be (rightly) highlighted as an oversight.
Film is native 1080p24.

rdjam, how can you support HD DVD so strongly and not know that it can not natively encode video at 1080p24? Read the HD DVD specs and see for yourself in section 5.2.1 of the "Requirements Specification for HD DVD Video Application".

Originally Posted by rdjam

Even though the video could be theoretically reassembled by a VP or your TV set, it represents an unusual format that most TVs probably might not understand how to re-assemble - as they would not likely EXPECT to have come across 1080i60 video that DOESN'T have interfield motion.

Actually re-assembling 30 fps video at 1080i60 is rather easy and most video processors can recognize it.

Originally Posted by Ollie W. Holmes

The impact of this is the inability to burn 30p home videos to BD AND have it play on a BD player.

This is only for BD-ROM movies and it would be a bit of a jump to assume that it would be the same for BD-RE movies.

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

True, but I would point out that though Blu-ray does not support native 1080p30 video that it does support native 1080p24 video. HD DVD on the other hand does not support native 1080p24 video, which I consider to be more of a problem. Now of course you can use flags with 1080i60 to indicate that it is 24 fps or 30 fps video.

Is this Richard? I couldn't believe you are still spreading this no 1080p24 for HD DVD FUD. Give me a break. Other blu-ray supporters at least only attack on the 24p output issue which I think is fair and worth a push.

Also the 24p to 60i/60p conversion is happening on the player side for HD DVD and with proper implementation HD DVD could also output the "pristine 24p"
This 30p-60i might happen on the encoding side for blu-ray which means 30p master might be forced to 60i before encoding. If this is true, tell me which do you consider to be more of a problem?

[Phloyd]

Yay - 30p HD DVDs.

So, which player will have 1080p 30 fps output?

What is the difference between video stored as 30 frames progressive and the same information stored at 60 fields interlaced?

Sounds a lot like 30fps PSF (Progressive Segmented Frame) to me.

[wreckshop]

can hd dvd display a true 1080p24 signal without any conversion?

[Phloyd]

Originally Posted by wreckshop

can hd dvd display a true 1080p24 signal without any conversion?

As I understand it currently none of the set top players, BD or HD DVD can do this.

Currently none of the HD DVD players do 1080p at any frame rate.

The Pioneer is expected to do 24 fps and perhaps the Sony when they are released.

Perhaps someone can fill in whether the XA2 HD DVD player will handle this though from what I have heard it is a post-decode deinterlacer like the current 1080p BD solutions and is priced similarly.

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by wreckshop

can hd dvd display a true 1080p24 signal without any conversion?

Someone using software player has doing 24p/72hz from HD DVD on his CRT FP for a long time. Decoder suppliers confirmed it was doable for HD DVD also.

Originally Posted by Phloyd

What is the difference between video stored as 30 frames progressive and the same information stored at 60 fields interlaced?

I guess there should be no difference if IVTC properly. Based on the same logic, the 24p->60i/p->24p/48p/72p should make no difference than 24p->48p/72p. Some blu-ray supporters don't agree with this and Joe Kane seems to have a problem with the extra step also.

To make the matter worse, for blu-ray the 30p master-60i might happen before the encoding. So if there is anything loss during the 30p-60i conversion such as filtering, it couldn't be undo. However for HD DVD, the 24p-60i is happening inside the player. If the conversion is not perfect, you always have a chance for a new player or video processor to get it right.

BTW, how many video footage are shoot in 30p mode?
AFAIK, blu-ray doesn't have 25p in spec also and has to encode 25p native as 50i on disc. Is this also true?

[Neo1965]

If you weave it, you get 1080P60. But weave is the wrong default setting for 1080i because of all the sports and musicVideo programming at true 1080i which should be 'bobbed'. Which means unless you set the mode on your player (which can be done in PC, but doubtful on TVs), it can work --- if you have the option, just select 'film' or 'movie' and it will weave. (It might try to do some 3:2 thing too, which would be bad).

I'm not aware of the use of 1080P30 as the 'latest thing'. Where can I get this 'latest thing'. My HDR-HC3 and HDR-UX1 both can only do 1080i60, not 1080P30.

If it is the latest thing, there's no question, I have to get it. So where can I find this amazing gadget?

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

What a blow to Blu-Ray! A concert in HD will have to be 1080i60! STOP THE BLU-RAY DISC MACHINES!! This is it!

Why dont you petition HD-DVD to have playback at oh, i dont know,1080p24? Oh thats right, ITS NOT IN THE SPEC FOR THE HARDWARE. And none of HD-DVD players in existance or being made do 1080p24. Theres plenty for Blu-Ray. Of course, that would be the best solution in terms of FILM, which is what these devices were mainly intended for. But hey, you get 1080i30! ROCKIN!!! Seriously, this thread is so hilarious on so many levels.

This post was a little hilarious.

This is a real issue. I'm not saying it is a big deal, but I think Blu-ray would be better if they supported 1080p30 storage in the long run, than not supporting it. At the least it would help compression with those sources since compressing full frames should be easier than compressing interlaced fields. I know they already have more headroom, but 1080p30 storage would be nice. What the HD DVD players end up doing with things stored as 1080p30 in the long run makes a difference also. Hopefully they will be able to output 1080p60 from that where basically the only thing they are doing is frame doubling. They could interlace to 1080i60 before output, which is what I suspect the HD-A1 and others like it do.

--Darin

[Neo1965]

Originally Posted by darinp2

This post was a little hilarious.

This is a real issue. I'm not saying it is a big deal, but I think Blu-ray would be better if they supported 1080p30 storage in the long run, than not supporting it. At the least it would help compression with those sources since compressing full frames should be easier than compressing interlaced fields. I know they already have more headroom, but 1080p30 storage would be nice. What the HD DVD players end up doing with things stored as 1080p30 in the long run makes a difference also. Hopefully they will be able to output 1080p60 from that where basically the only thing they are doing is frame doubling. They could interlace to 1080i60 before output, which is what I suspect the HD-A1 and others like it do.

--Darin

Looking at the internals of MPEG2 and AVC and VC-1, I think the format can be supported as frame picture and frame motion all the way to the point of decode. Which means there should be an easy way to add a 1080P mode to the BD spec in V2.x and have firmware upgrades to the players that have hdmi chips that can support that mode. But what next?

The clincher is : I don't know of a TV that takes 1080P30. There are ones that can take 1080P60 or 1080P48/72 --- if your HDMI output chip can really generate 1080P60, turning on the weave flag and sending 1080i YUV to that HDMI chip should make it work.

Still, it should be enabled if it is indeed the newest cool thing under the sun (which I doubt).

[wreckshop]

Someone using software player has doing 24p/72hz from HD DVD on his CRT FP for a long time. Decoder suppliers confirmed it was doable for HD DVD also.

I'm not talking about software. you can do almost anything with a software based solution. are there any present or upcoming standalone hd dvd players than can display 1080p24 signal, and if not why?

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by wreckshop

I'm not talking about software. you can do almost anything with a software based solution.

Didn't I say decoder suppliers confirmed 24p is doable for HD DVD? Also if the software could do it, what makes you think the hardware couldn't? Oh, VP50 could even give you 24p from 1080p60 input.

Originally Posted by wreckshop

are there any present or upcoming standalone hd dvd players than can display 1080p24 signal, and if not why?

I only know for a fact that none of current blu-ray players could do 24p. Upcoming HD DVD players with 24p output? Of course there is such player in the pipeline, otherwise DVD Forum wouldn't hold a meeting this Nov on this very topic. Also, you could put Genum/HQV chip inside and get perfect 24p for HD DVD movie. People do that today with two piece of equipment. You just need someone to put them into one case.

Last I thought this thread is about no 30p for blu-ray, no?

[trbarry]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Actually re-assembling 30 fps video at 1080i60 is rather easy and most video processors can recognize it.

Richard -

I was not aware of that.

If most can do this, to which format do they convert? And in which format is the video then passed to your TV or display?

- Tom

[dialog_gvf]

What do 1080p panels do with true 1080i/60 right now? If there is no interfield motion, then what happens?

Gary

[lymzy]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

What do 1080p panels do with true 1080i/60 right now? If there is no interfield motion, then what happens?
Gary

Simple weave should recover the original 1080p30. At least I hope so. But TheLion would be the first to disagree. I am also a little bit worried about the 30p master-60i process before encoding. If you use interlaced compression algorithm for a progressive source, would it be any different from the native progressive encoding? Blu-ray might have the same concern for native 25p source. AFAIK, it only has 50i in spec.

[b2bonez]

I fail to see where this is some kind of giant problem. It's not like the entire world of movie entertainment was captured at 30fps progressive in the first place, it was captured at 24fps on film and the newer digital cameras also are used at 24fps.

Even if you store a native captured 30p at 60i there is no temporal distortion to recover the 30p for display. This is unlike the awful mess we have with 24fps converted to 30fps and trying to recover the original 24fps without error to eliminate the judder.

b2b

[sspears]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Actually re-assembling 30 fps video at 1080i60 is rather easy and most video processors can recognize it.

Good 2-2 is more difficult than 2-3 and is why the Genesis chip in the Samsung cannot do it. If you watch 1080p out of the Samsung, you will get 1080p that has been deinterlaced via motion adaptive instead of correctly weaved. They don't attempt 2-2 because they don't have a good algorithm that is reliable.

The National in the Panasonic can perform 2-2, but its not reliable either. At least it drops to video instead of weaving when it should not.

Your best bet is an external box from ABT, Gennum or Silicon Optix. (As I said in the original thread.)

1080p30 is rare, so it is far from the end of the world. This and the limit on the number of B frames in BD is surpising.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by sspears

Good 2-2 is more difficult than 2-3 and is why the Genesis chip in the Samsung cannot do it. If you watch 1080p out of the Samsung, you will get 1080p that has been deinterlaced via motion adaptive instead of correctly weaved. They don't attempt 2-2 because they don't have a good algorithm that is reliable.

Isn't the source 24fps or 60i (30fps) content an obvious flag to use downstream for the de-interlacing? You would assume they would never waste space by encoding 24fps content as 60i.

Gary