Will TrueHD or DTS HDMA Replace SACD, DVD-A and DualDisc?

[Cherylandmike]

Now that the movie studios have gotten behind the concept of High Definition Video, does anyone think that the HD Video audio formats will eventually replace our beloved SACD and DVD-Audio.

Thanks for reading,

[WriteSimple]

Probably not. It is much easier to support SACD than to create a whole new high-resolution disc format.

Sony should push SACD fully now that the PS3 is out. It seems that there are more SACD releases than DVD-A anyways nowadays.


fuad

[CAVX]

Having already seen a music video in HD with a Dolby True HD soundtrack (on Blu-ray), that IMO, was simply stunning. If it means that we end up with a greater supply of titles and studio support, then yes I am happy to see the end of both DVD-A and SACD...

Mark

[John Haghighi]

I think what you will see happening in the next 3 years is that what are now music dvd's with video, will turn into music HD DVD /Blu-ray's with TrueHD /DTS HD MA or uncompressed PCM, but we'll see more for DD Plus tracks I bet.

If I recall, the Blu-ray camp claimed back in May that about 18 labels that made up 50% of music sales last year had signed on to release titles on the Blu-ray format and hardware was being shipped. When I asked some Dolby folks whether they are going to use Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM, they wouldn't comment.

There is no doubt that these uncompressed formats for audio will be welcomed by audiophiles, but like DVD-A and SACD, it is unlikley to become a portable, interchangable, mass market media format like the CD.

[lchiu7]

Originally Posted by CAVX

Having already seen a music video in HD with a Dolby True HD soundtrack (on Blu-ray), that IMO, was simply stunning. If it means that we end up with a greater supply of titles and studio support, then yes I am happy to see the end of both DVD-A and SACD...

Mark

But is there any increase in fidelity for Dolby True HD over MLP or SACD? From reading the Dolby white paper the main difference is Dolby TrueHD can support 7.1 while MLP is limited to 5.1.

I have a DVD-A/SACD player. I would much prefer that content in those formats continue rather than have to think about a new medium. I don't necessarily need to view a video to enjoy music but if I do, then I would agree, the best audio format on the video would be desirable.

Larry

[KMO]

does anyone think that the HD Video audio formats will eventually replace our beloved SACD and DVD-Audio.

No, they won't. They don't offer any sonic advantage over SACD or DVD-Audio. Two extra channels is the only benefit. Or much more content - but that's not going to be any use commercially - they're not going to want to sell 10+ hours of music on 1 disc.

And why on earth would anyone release a music disc on BD or HD DVD instead of SACD or DVD-Audio? They'd be going from a small potential user base to an even smaller one. There aren't even any audio-only specifications for those formats. And don't forget that SACD and DVD-Audio are backwards compatible with CD and DVD-Video respectively; can BD or HD DVD offer this?

Personally, I expect to see SACD and DVD-Audio begin to become more widespread now, simply because the advent of HDMI means we now getting boxes with easy digital interconnects for them. Indeed, I've personally just started collecting SACD and DVD-Audio because of this - I was waiting until connection was more elegant.

I don't see either format being superceded for the forseeable future (>10 years). Maybe some backward-compatible extensions for extra channels, I suppose (like DTS-ES discrete being added to DVD video).

I'm sure that music video releases will start to come out on BD and HD DVD, but not audio-only discs.

[hotguy8289]

Call me a cynic, but I believe BD & HD DVD have already flopped.

[fresno1232001]

The one thing no one is saying here is that HD and Blue Ray are NOT backward compatable so that they can play DVD-Audio and SACD discs. Can you believe that? They are, thereby, intentionally or not, driving a nail in the coffins of the great DVD-Audio and SACD formats. GEEZ! You might think they would be able to play these formats so as to increase their own sales appeal. No, they set us up for yet two more entirely new audio formats, HD and Blue Ray Audio. This is just getting sickening. Ironic that such brilliant people on the tech side can be so stunningly stupid on the marketing side, isn't it? HD and Blue Ray deserve to fail because 1) Who wants to pay twice as much to see 1944's "Double Indemnity" in 1080i or 1080p than we pay now to see it in SD? How much better can that old 35 mm film look in HD? and 2) this bone-head move in making the players not able to play DVD-A and SACD discs.
I think the true potential for HD and Blue Ray lies in making movies recording direct to hard drives, editing them in the digital domain, and then putting the movie out on high Def DVD. No film at all anywhere in the process. I saw a "movie" so made about a bicycle race in England on a Pioneer Plasma at Best Buy. Just stunning! You could count the bricks in the walls of villages a mile away. Why would the worlds' movie makers not be picking up on this. Skip the film, record directly to a hard-drive, then edit and release on high def DVD for use in HD and Blue Ray machines. Most people have never seen what that looks like, and it is stunning. You see Jay Leno in high def, but how often have you seen something shot in hi-def, recorded on a hard drive, and put out on HD or Blue Ray disc. Think of a whole movie made that way. When they do that, sales of 1080p sets and the hi def players will surge. Now make the players able to play DVD-A and SACD discs, and you'll see sales explode.

QUOTE=KMO]No, they won't. They don't offer any sonic advantage over SACD or DVD-Audio. Two extra channels is the only benefit. Or much more content - but that's not going to be any use commercially - they're not going to want to sell 10+ hours of music on 1 disc.

And why on earth would anyone release a music disc on BD or HD DVD instead of SACD or DVD-Audio? They'd be going from a small potential user base to an even smaller one. There aren't even any audio-only specifications for those formats. And don't forget that SACD and DVD-Audio are backwards compatible with CD and DVD-Video respectively; can BD or HD DVD offer this?

Personally, I expect to see SACD and DVD-Audio begin to become more widespread now, simply because the advent of HDMI means we now getting boxes with easy digital interconnects for them. Indeed, I've personally just started collecting SACD and DVD-Audio because of this - I was waiting until connection was more elegant.

I don't see either format being superceded for the forseeable future (>10 years). Maybe some backward-compatible extensions for extra channels, I suppose (like DTS-ES discrete being added to DVD video).

I'm sure that music video releases will start to come out on BD and HD DVD, but not audio-only discs.[/quote]

[fresno1232001]

The one thing no one is pointing out here is that HD and Blue Ray are NOT backward compatable so that they can play DVD-Audio and SACD discs. Can you believe that? They are, thereby, intentionally or not, driving a nail in the coffins of the great DVD-Audio and SACD formats. GEEZ! You might think they would be able to play these formats so as to increase their own sales appeal. No, they set us up for yet two more entirely new audio formats, HD and Blue Ray Audio. This is just getting sickening. Ironic that such brilliant people on the tech side can be so stunningly stupid on the marketing side, isn't it? HD and Blue Ray deserve to fail because 1) Who wants to pay twice as much to see 1944's "Double Indemnity" in 1080i or 1080p than we pay now to see it in SD? How much better can that old 35 mm film look in HD? and 2) this bone-head move in making the players not able to play DVD-A and SACD discs.
I think the true potential for HD and Blue Ray lies in making movies recording direct to hard drives, editing them in the digital domain, and then putting the movie out on high Def DVD. No film at all anywhere in the process. I saw a "movie" so made about a bicycle race in England on a Pioneer Plasma at Best Buy. Just stunning! You could count the bricks in the walls of villages a mile away. Why would the worlds' movie makers not be picking up on this. Skip the film, record directly to a hard-drive, then edit and release on high def DVD for use in HD and Blue Ray machines. Most people have never seen what that looks like, and it is stunning. You see Jay Leno in high def, but how often have you seen something shot in hi-def, recorded on a hard drive, and put out on HD or Blue Ray disc. Think of a whole movie made that way. When they do that, sales of 1080p sets and the hi def players will surge. Now make the players able to play DVD-A and SACD discs, and you'll see sales explode.

QUOTE=KMO]No, they won't. They don't offer any sonic advantage over SACD or DVD-Audio. Two extra channels is the only benefit. Or much more content - but that's not going to be any use commercially - they're not going to want to sell 10+ hours of music on 1 disc.

And why on earth would anyone release a music disc on BD or HD DVD instead of SACD or DVD-Audio? They'd be going from a small potential user base to an even smaller one. There aren't even any audio-only specifications for those formats. And don't forget that SACD and DVD-Audio are backwards compatible with CD and DVD-Video respectively; can BD or HD DVD offer this?

Personally, I expect to see SACD and DVD-Audio begin to become more widespread now, simply because the advent of HDMI means we now getting boxes with easy digital interconnects for them. Indeed, I've personally just started collecting SACD and DVD-Audio because of this - I was waiting until connection was more elegant.

I don't see either format being superceded for the forseeable future (>10 years). Maybe some backward-compatible extensions for extra channels, I suppose (like DTS-ES discrete being added to DVD video).

I'm sure that music video releases will start to come out on BD and HD DVD, but not audio-only discs.[/quote]

[KMO]

Originally Posted by fresno1232001

The one thing no one is saying here is that HD and Blue Ray are NOT backward compatable so that they can play DVD-Audio and SACD discs. Can you believe that? They are, thereby, intentionally or not, driving a nail in the coffins of the great DVD-Audio and SACD formats. GEEZ! You might think they would be able to play these formats so as to increase their own sales appeal.

Er, you're confusing the formats with the players. DVD isn't backwards compatible with CD, but DVD players usually play CDs. There's nothing stopping HD DVD and Blu-ray players playing DVD-Audio and/or SACD.

The PlayStation 3, a Blu-ray player, plays SACD. The fact the other players released so far aren't playing DVDA and SACD is just a black mark against those players; nothing to do with the HD DVD and Blu-ray formats.

But there is a point, which I mentioned, in that the new discs aren't backwards compatible, unlike DVD-Audio and SACD, which can be played on DVD-Video and CD players respectively.

[obie_fl]

Originally Posted by fresno1232001

The one thing no one is pointing out here is that HD and Blue Ray are NOT backward compatable so that they can play DVD-Audio and SACD discs. Can you believe that? They are, thereby, intentionally or not, driving a nail in the coffins of the great DVD-Audio and SACD formats.

Nothing from a technological perspective is keeping BD or HD DVD from playing SACD and DVD-A it is mostly just licensing. The DD TrueHD codec is actually very similar to the MLP used on DVD-A, and the PS3 is doing Blu-ray and SACD. Blu-ray and HD DVD did little if anything to nail the coffin shut, it was MP3 players and cheap "free" downloads that killed high resolution multichannel audio. I have to disagree with KMO but the formats are not going anywhere and have all but been dead for over a year now unless you are into classical music on SACD.

1) Who wants to pay twice as much to see 1944's "Double Indemnity" in 1080i or 1080p than we pay now to see it in SD? How much better can that old 35 mm film look in HD?

That would be me. Have you actually seen the HD DVDs of Cassablanca, Forbidden Planet or The Searchers? These old films look light years better then their SDVD counterparts. You would have to have a pretty meager display if you think SDVDs are capturing the full resolution of film. Trust me you don't need digital video to take advantage of the HD optical formats.

For the record I own around 150 SACDs and DVD-As and am sad to see them withering.

[lchiu7]

Originally Posted by obie_fl

Nothing from a technological perspective is keeping BD or HD DVD from playing SACD and DVD-A it is mostly just licensing. The DD TrueHD codec is actually very similar to the MLP used on DVD-A, and the PS3 is doing Blu-ray and SACD.
For the record I own around 150 SACDs and DVD-As and am sad to see them withering.

I am guessing the PS3 doesn't do DVD-Audio because Sony doesn't do DVD-A - their SACD players are DVD and SACD only so why change it with the PS3? In fact it would be easy with a firmware upgrade to do DVD-A since DVD-A has the same physical format as a DVD - just needs some different codecs to unscramble the data

Originally Posted by obie_fl

..
That would be me. Have you actually seen the HD DVDs of Cassablanca, Forbidden Planet or The Searchers? These old films look light years better then their SDVD counterparts. You would have to have a pretty meager display if you think SDVDs are capturing the full resolution of film. Trust me you don't need digital video to take advantage of the HD optical formats.

withering.

From what I understand while film stock has been getting better over the years (finer grain, less prone to fade. etc.) even film stock in the 40's and 50's, espcially B&W have more resolution in them than the standard HDTV resolutions. So there is room for improvement

[KMO]

Originally Posted by obie_fl

it was MP3 players and cheap "free" downloads that killed high resolution multichannel audio.

That's not really logical. If you want to keep shifting physical discs, what better way to do it than to offer much better multichannel quality? You've got a selling point. If the studios are too dense to figure that out, that's their problem. If they can start pushing more high-profile stuff like Love, then people will start to pay attention.

I've only just started collecting SACD+DVDA - I was turned on to multichannel audio this summer by stumbling across Pink's I'm Not Dead DualDisc (hadn't even heard of DualDisc). When I bought my last DVD player in 1999/2000, it was clear that SACD/DVD interconnects were too primitive (lack of bass management etc), so I didn't bother with them - I was happy to wait until the equipment caught up with the format. But now I'm upgrading my kit, and we've got decent receivers with 96kHz+ processing capable of digital interconnect. I'm ready to go. As are lots of other people hooking up with HDMI.

If the format's are withering, it's no-one's fault but the studios for not bothering to release stuff. If they had a decent catalogue, people would buy it. 2005 was a pretty good year for new releases, but 2006 hasn't seen much apart from Love. They need to pull their finger out next year.

The installed base of surround sound systems and DVD-A/SACD-capable players is ever-increasing. The potential market is getting larger and larger. If they just release decent stuff, it will sell by the bucketload. Like Love is.

[obie_fl]

Maybe I've gotten cynical because I've been collecting SACDs and DVD-As for several years. I'm going to go on record and say the formats are not only withering but are basically already dead. I believe DualDisc has already been abandoned and a lot of those discs were not even high resolution. I don't believe there have been many if any pop releases on SACD in the US for quite some time. Other then the Love DVD-A and the Doors collection were there any other DVD-A releases here in the US recently? While the studios definitely made some mistakes with the dual formats the truth is the vast percentage of the music listening public could care less about M/C or quality. They are perfectly content to listen to the highly compressed MP3s on their IPods. The general public is not well represented in this forum.

I wish I could say the formats are making a come back but I have not seen any evidence to convince me of that, if fact it is quite the opposite.

[lchiu7]

Originally Posted by obie_fl

Maybe I've gotten cynical because I've been collecting SACDs and DVD-As for several years. I'm going to go on record and say the formats are not only withering but are basically already dead. I believe DualDisc has already been abandoned and a lot of those discs were not even high resolution. I don't believe there have been many if any pop releases on SACD in the US for quite some time. Other then the Love DVD-A and the Doors collection were there any other DVD-A releases here in the US recently? While the studios definitely made some mistakes with the dual formats the truth is the vast percentage of the music listening public could care less about M/C or quality. They are perfectly content to listen to the highly compressed MP3s on their IPods. The general public is not well represented in this forum.

I wish I could say the formats are making a come back but I have not seen any evidence to convince me of that, if fact it is quite the opposite.

If that is the case then it's pretty sad.

I got into MCH audio relatively recently, somewhat serendipitously. Although I had a HT system (DD only) and knew about DVD-A and SACD I was never motivated to upgrade. Then I saw the Eagles Hotel California DVD-A in a bargain bin and purchased it. Even listening to the DVD-D tracks I could hear the potential of MCH audio and so decided to upgrade. For me this meant a new DVD player that could play DVD-A and SACD and a new AVR with 6 channel analogue inputs.

It took a while but now I have all the gear and am enjoying my modest collection of MCH discs. I also managed to procure a copy of DSOTM which is outstanding in this format.

From my experiences I would say the barriers have been

1. knowledge of the formats - once again two competing formats have fragmented the marketplace although dual format players are a reality

2. Entry cost - for many of us we needed both new DVD players and AVR's - not insignificant costs

3. Catalogue - but this is a chicken and egg sort of thing. I would imagine it's easier to create a MCH release for a new recording when you are already producing the content, then go back to existing recordings and redo them. Yet for many of us who can afford the gear, our more mature age group wants to hear the music we grew up in MCH rather than some of the new content :-). But how many copies of a re-release can a studio sell?

4. Agreed that mobile music has placed portablity over quality.

So in the meantime I am grabbing all the content I can that I like

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by hotguy8289

Call me a cynic, but I believe BD & HD DVD have already flopped.

No, no, no - far too early to draw any sensible conclusions - most of the major manufacturers have not even launched their hardware yet. 2006 for HD is a bit like 1997 was for DVD - and you might have been justified in a similar sentiment on DVD back then

[outlier2]

As a huge fan and proponent of Hi Rez audio for several years I agree that all of the formats are dead. I think HD-DVD and blu ray will also not be successful as an audio format. I'm sure the manufacturers will blame consumers but really it is greed and incompetence that killed the formats. Manufacturers worried that the formats would lead to widespread copying of original material at unprecedented quality so they limited the output to analog outpus requiring six cables, special receivers and players and considerable technical know how just to set it up. Then they didn't bother marketing it. At all. Priced the discs unreasonably, limited the distribution and made it nearly impossible to get new releases in the new formats. Now they want early adopters for their new HD-DVD and Blu Ray technologies. Screw that. They have shown how they treat their early adopters. They leave you hanging in the breeze with no software to play on the expensive technologies they introduced and asked you to buy into with good faith. No wonder the industry is a mess.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by outlier2

As a huge fan and proponent of Hi Rez audio for several years I agree that all of the formats are dead. I think HD-DVD and blu ray will also not be successful as an audio format.

But they have made no claim as an audio format - both, or either, will suceed or fail as a video format - SACD/DVDA showed pretty clearly that there is no mass market appetite to sustain a new format for hirez audio.

Now, if either Bluray or HDDVD becomes mass market established, I think there is every reason to think that there will be another attempt to sell hirez music.

[oblio98]

I don't think Sony is "banking" on the PS3 as a saviour for SACD. Only the radical SACD fans can claim that. As far as DVD-A goes, if the release of "Love" does not stimulate the surround sound music market, I fear that it will stay a "low priority" for the studios and labels. Merely an afterthough for a narrow market.

The fact that the new high end Toshiba HD-DVD player does not do SACD or DVD-A is a sad fact, IMHO. I can't imagine it would have taken much to include at LEAST the DVD-A capability in that box.

:-jon

[obie_fl]

I wonder what percentage of Love buyers bought the version with the DVD?
Now break it down further of those that did buy the DVD.
- Percentage that actually have the gear properly setup and know how to listen to DVD-A.
- Percentage who are listening to M/C but the lossy Dolby or DTS tracks.
- Percentage who are pissed because there is no real video on the DVD.

I'm guessing the DVD-A listeners is the smallest percentage.

At least Blu-ray and HD DVD will make it easy enough to release something similar. Just throw a high resolution PCM 7.1 track on it with minimal video and still have room on the disc.

[oblio98]

Originally Posted by obie_fl

I wonder what percentage of Love buyers bought the version with the DVD?
Now break it down further of those that did buy the DVD.
- Percentage that actually have the gear properly setup and know how to listen to DVD-A.
- Percentage who are listening to M/C but the lossy Dolby or DTS tracks.
- Percentage who are pissed because there is no real video on the DVD.

I'm guessing the DVD-A listeners is the smallest percentage.

At least Blu-ray and HD DVD will make it easy enough to release something similar. Just throw a high resolution PCM 7.1 track on it with minimal video and still have room on the disc.

To fully appreciate "Love", you have to hear it in 5.1. It really doesn't matter if a large percentage of home theater folks with DD/DTS systems hear it that way as opposed to those of us who get to hear it at 24/96, the important thing is that people HEAR the surround version.

Had this come out 3 years ago, Sony would have probably muscled Capitol/EMI into making this a Hybrid SACD, as they did with DSOTM. If that had happened, far less homes would get to experience the surround sound track, which would be a shame. (Not that SACD is "bad", it's just not as good for surround "market penetration" as DVD/DVD-A is)

The important issue to me is not the format, but more so the SURROUND music aspect of the release. When people hear "Love" in 5.1, they are generally floored, be they casual music fans or hard core HiRez people. Only the "I only have 2 ears, and surround sucks" people can complain, and that they do. I have learned to leave them to their misery.

You have to figure that even if you get a "fair" amount of people to buy into HD-DVD or BlueRay, how many of those will go the next step and get a receiver with the newer HD audio formats? Limiting surround music to these is a death knell.

As much as I love HiRez, it won't be us that keeps surround music going, it will be the J6P's with the Dolby Digital and DTS systems.

The point is, CD+DVD-A packages are a good thing, because having the disc in your hands gives you more impetus to go out and get the player that lets you hear the disc the way it should be heard.

:-jon
quadraphonicquad

[obie_fl]

Jon - I don't disagree I really feel one of the biggest hurdles to overcome is how do you get five decent speakers in JSP's living room? Most people just can't overcome the WAF in her living room.

[oblio98]

Originally Posted by obie_fl

Jon - I don't disagree I really feel one of the biggest hurdles to overcome is how do you get five decent speakers in JSP's living room? Most people just can't overcome the WAF in her living room.

That's easy! You get them to start with 5 "crappy" speakers in their living room.
(Usually little "wife approved" size) The "upgrades" come naturally!

:-jon

[ematcion]

Originally Posted by obie_fl

Maybe I've gotten cynical because I've been collecting SACDs and DVD-As for several years. I'm going to go on record and say the formats are not only withering but are basically already dead. I believe DualDisc has already been abandoned and a lot of those discs were not even high resolution. I don't believe there have been many if any pop releases on SACD in the US for quite some time. Other then the Love DVD-A and the Doors collection were there any other DVD-A releases here in the US recently? While the studios definitely made some mistakes with the dual formats the truth is the vast percentage of the music listening public could care less about M/C or quality. They are perfectly content to listen to the highly compressed MP3s on their IPods. The general public is not well represented in this forum.

I wish I could say the formats are making a come back but I have not seen any evidence to convince me of that, if fact it is quite the opposite.

Debut album of Cowboy Junkies coming to Mobile Fidelity SACD on December 5th

Don't forget there was SACDs from Little Richard (on MoFi) and the Moody Blues SACDs (on Universal Music) ?

The issue is whether the record companies can make enough money from releasing a hi-rez version of a certain title. Will there be enough interest? And that's from a worldwide perspective. The record companies certainly don't want dual inventory of anything and if you look beyond our borders, you'll find that the world (in general) prefers SACD. Last month (November) alone, sa-cd.net added 81 new SACD titles. So, the format is hardly dead.

[oblio98]

Originally Posted by ematcion

Debut album of Cowboy Junkies coming to Mobile Fidelity SACD on December 5th

Don't forget there was SACDs from Little Richard (on MoFi) and the Moody Blues SACDs (on Universal Music) ?

The issue is whether the record companies can make enough money from releasing a hi-rez version of a certain title. Will there be enough interest? And that's from a worldwide perspective. The record companies certainly don't want dual inventory of anything and if you look beyond our borders, you'll find that the world (in general) prefers SACD. Last month (November) alone, sa-cd.net added 81 new SACD titles. So, the format is hardly dead.

Since this is the "Surround Music" section, I was speaking in terms of surround. All of the stereo SACDs have no bearing on surround music. SACD is fine for that, and great for surround. However, to rely on SACD to move surround music forward is foolish.

As for the 4000+ SACDs listed on sacd.net is concerned.................well, I'm not going to get started on THAT. SACD is a great format that, IMHO, was screwed up and abandoned by its creator, and in doing so, they managed to take down the surround music movement as well.

[fresno1232001]

Hear, Hear!!! Right you are!! NO one ever says that but me. I can't believe it. But it is dead on. I don't read audio magazines, but as a typical, fairly sharp consumer, I don't remember ever seeing one single ad on TV or in print for DVD-A or SACD. Not one. What are they thinking? A Toyota commercial every 5 minutes and not one ad ever for hi-res souind. And they have had players for one of the two hi-res audio formats in vehicles. I've met salespeople at Best Buy who have never heard of hi rez. I once asked a salesperson at The Good Guys (now gone) if SACD was something good- it was mentioned in a print ad for a DVD player. He said it was nothing- it doesn't do anything. I don't think anybody I've ever mentioned hi-rez to has ever heard of it. God. Yes, then charge a lot for the discs and don't put much out on it. I find about 300 titles on the net for DVD-A, my format since I own the Panny S-97 DVD and DVD-A player. I guess HD-DVD and Blue Ray players might still appear that play the two hi res audio discs. Only the Sony game console plays HD-DVD AND SACDs. Big hint to you manufacturers: If you want HD-DVD and Blue Ray to fly, make them capable of playing DVD-A and SACD discs. (and maybe see my post above re movies done all in hi-rez with no film involved). That they don't is a real good indication of their mentality, and we should not support that mentality with our money. I agree- screw them six ways to Sunday!
Home audio was huge in the 70's. I honestly believe the interests of American consumers have shifted to other areas. Maybe it's all the divorced or otw single parents with no time to give to audio, maybe it's the increased number of avg. hours worked per week, surely its the IPOD, etc, it's hours per week on the internet (which did not exist in the 70s) , AND the lousy marketing job by the industry. People spend so much money on vehicles, they are just strapped financially. Then every receiver is obsolete in 12 months, and so is every $2,500 big screen- 1080i, then 1080p, etc. In five years it will be 5,000p and all the current displays and receivers and discs will be obsolete. Home electronics has become a rich man's game with the rapid, deliberate obsolescence. The industry for sure is a mess and it's costing them countless billions. Good! What a bunch of greedy morons. But then the Japanese have made some huge mistakes before, so why are we surprised?

Originally Posted by outlier2

As a huge fan and proponent of Hi Rez audio for several years I agree that all of the formats are dead. I think HD-DVD and blu ray will also not be successful as an audio format. I'm sure the manufacturers will blame consumers but really it is greed and incompetence that killed the formats. Manufacturers worried that the formats would lead to widespread copying of original material at unprecedented quality so they limited the output to analog outpus requiring six cables, special receivers and players and considerable technical know how just to set it up. Then they didn't bother marketing it. At all. Priced the discs unreasonably, limited the distribution and made it nearly impossible to get new releases in the new formats. Now they want early adopters for their new HD-DVD and Blu Ray technologies. Screw that. They have shown how they treat their early adopters. They leave you hanging in the breeze with no software to play on the expensive technologies they introduced and asked you to buy into with good faith. No wonder the industry is a mess.

[jorgeluiz]

But then the Japanese have made some huge mistakes before, so why are we surprised?

i worked in Toshiba(Brasil) for 6 years(round 1984),i knew the Toshiba vice-president in this time,lots of technicians,few "developers".
mistakes,corrections and ...too much people full of proud but reasonables aparators.
i worked in Sony(Brasil) too...just the same(or worse)
Sony always build "strange things" like el-cassete,beta-max,sacds....all faded to dead.

no surprises!

[obie_fl]

Originally Posted by ematcion

Last month (November) alone, sa-cd.net added 81 new SACD titles. So, the format is hardly dead.

Note I said "pop" releases. I counted approximately 20 pop releases this year and a lot of those barely qualify as pop. Even the notable Moody Blues and Depeche Mode releases weren't widely available dosmetically here in the US, I know I imported them. Add to that a hand full of MFSL classic releases and I still contend that for pop/rock the SACD format is all but dead. I'm all over that Cowboy Junkies SACD...Here's hoping The Trinity Sessions gets the same treatment.

[KMO]

I don't care. I've only just started collecting, so it's all new to me I've got 2 SACDs and 3 DVD-As, so that leaves me about 4396 to go...

[lchiu7]

Originally Posted by KMO

I don't care. I've only just started collecting, so it's all new to me I've got 2 SACDs and 3 DVD-As, so that leaves me about 4396 to go...

If we're counting then I have 9 DVD-A's and 5 SACD's and I guess a few to go. My challenge is, as somebody is slightly more mature and therefore not so in tune with current contemporary music (the stuff my daughter likes!) I am looking for reissues of music of my own generation. Not so easy! But Love has been a relevation to me the Beatles music is something I did grow up with!