Low vocal mix on DVD-audio version of Beatles Love

[Dr. Toons]

I already posted the message below in the thread about the release of the Beatles Love DVD-audio. Just hoping for additional feed back from anyone not monitoring that thread.

I have been searching in vain for someone that has the same problem with the DVD-audio version of Love. I've now tried 3 disks from 2 different stores and on each disk the DVD-audio mix has the vocals turned down in the mix, almost like a karaoke disk with the vocals dialed back. I've checked my system and even taken the disk to a high end audio store and got the same result. I have a Yamaha S657 DVD player that plays other DVD-audio and SACDs fine.

When I first listened to this I thought it was odd, not the way I would have mixed it but maybe they did that on purpose for Cirque. Then I listened to the CD and the vocals were right where I expected them. Same with the DVD video sound. Its just the DD-audio were the mix is bad or different or whatever you want to call it. The vocals aren't even muffled - they sound clear - they're just not loud enough relative to the rest of the mix.

Even with the vocals mixed too low, the DVD-audio is plenty interesting. I say that because I wonder if people have been listening to the same thing I have and thinking it was fine. This is not a subtle difference - the mix on the CD is obviously different even to my wife (and the couple other non-audio buffs I've played this for).

Can anyone confirm that they have a copy of the DVD-audio where the vocals are mixed the same as on the CD? I really want to get a good copy of this, I'm hoping that there was just a production problem on a portion of the disks (although I've managed to find 3 problem disks already). I would also like to figure out if there's anybody at Apple or Capital that I can contact about this.

Thanks

[BGLeduc]

That is definetly not happenning on my rig (Denon 3910). The vocal quality is pristine.

Are you the guy that posted about this at Audioholics? If not, then there would seem to be another similar report.

Weird.

Brian

[Dr. Toons]

No, I'm not that guy, but I did see that report. Its the only other one I've seen.
The problem I'm having is not subtle, so I doubt that evertone would be fine with the results I'm getting. I'm hoping that its a bad batch of disks. I did remember that the audio store test was also on a Yamaha player (different model). I'll try to test this on another brand player to rule out a problem between Yamaha player and this disk.

[cgengler]

If anything, I think the vocals were mixed a bit hot.

[Flexx]

The mix is fine. Sounds like a system set-up prob.

What is your speaker/hardware set-up and how are you connecting your player and receiver?

[lchiu7]

This probably won't help you since you say that other discs (DVD-A and SACD) are fine but when I first put the Love album in and listened to Get Back, the vocals sounded like karaoke with Paul's voice in the background. I then checked my setup and ran the audio level adjustment and I could white noise from all speakers so that apparently wasn't the problem. I then checked the DVD to AVR connections and found that the centre channel connection had worked loose on the receiver. So I wasn't hearing the centre channel where the vocals are! This would not show up with DD or DTS since the signal is over S/PDIF.

Also it would not be apparent if you play the CD since the CD has the vocals probably mixed equally in both channels to create a phantom centre channel vocal.

But looks like you've checked all that so it's a mystery

Larry

[Dr. Toons]

Thanks Larry, I'll double check my connections. I'm sceptical though, since I had the exact same result when I played the disk at the audio store. I agree it does sound like a set-up problem, between rechecking my system and trying another brand player I should get to the bottom of that.

[Flexx]

You're using the analog outs for your DVD-A player, right?

[sivadselim]

I'll just add that the vocals on mine sound fine, too.

[Jack Gilvey]

I checked my DVD against the cd (I've had it in the car) tonight in the HT...the vocal levels are basically identical, and certainly not low. Tough to imagine a low vocal or center level would be a disc defect.

[Dr. Toons]

Thanks everyone. It was my center channel. I haven't gotten it working yet, but I dialed down all the other channels and get nothing from the center. I went back to another DVD-A and had the same result. It just wasn't as noticable on my other DVD-As because of the mix. I am using the 5.1 analog outs and on a quick check all the connections look OK, I'll have to get my installation guy in to check it out - the way the cables are bundled and routed, its not easy to get at stuff without disturbing the whole scheme.

Thanks again Larry, your note had me looking harder at the center than I had been.

[Jack Gilvey]

Cool!

I've checked my system and even taken the disk to a high end audio store and got the same result.

Maybe you should have them check their center now?

[lchiu7]

Originally Posted by Dr. Toons

Thanks everyone. It was my center channel. I haven't gotten it working yet, but I dialed down all the other channels and get nothing from the center. I went back to another DVD-A and had the same result. It just wasn't as noticable on my other DVD-As because of the mix. I am using the 5.1 analog outs and on a quick check all the connections look OK, I'll have to get my installation guy in to check it out - the way the cables are bundled and routed, its not easy to get at stuff without disturbing the whole scheme.

Thanks again Larry, your note had me looking harder at the center than I had been.

Glad I could supply some leads (metaphorically of course!). I had the same problem and immediately suspected my centre speakers but of course was led astray when the receiver test tones sounded all speakers. It was only when I used the DVD player test tones (which of course would test the connections from the player to the AVR) that I noticed nothing came out of the centre channel.

When you get it fixed you will enjoy the album much more :-)

[s2silber]

Originally Posted by Dr. Toons

I already posted the message below in the thread about the release of the Beatles Love DVD-audio. Just hoping for additional feed back from anyone not monitoring that thread.

Now that you've figured out it was a set-up problem, you should change the subject line or delete this thread.

[geobrick]

Originally Posted by Dr. Toons

Thanks everyone. It was my center channel. I haven't gotten it working yet, but I dialed down all the other channels and get nothing from the center. I went back to another DVD-A and had the same result. It just wasn't as noticeable on my other DVD-As because of the mix. I am using the 5.1 analog outs and on a quick check all the connections look OK, I'll have to get my installation guy in to check it out - the way the cables are bundled and routed, its not easy to get at stuff without disturbing the whole scheme.

Thanks again Larry, your note had me looking harder at the center than I had been.

Dr. Toons,

I believe the DVD audio content on the disk is only a stereo mix. That is the limit of the DVD-A spec when it's recorded at 24 bit 192Khz which is what the DVD-A portion of "Love" may be recorded at (can anyone confirm the DVD-A resolution used?). The audio from the DVD video format is 5.1 (by the way, there is only audio on the disk which makes the term DVD-Video confusing when referring to an audio disk).

Is your DVD player playing the disk in DVD video mode or DVD Audio mode?. They are two different formats contained on the same disk. There will be no center channel on the DVD-A formatted part if it's a 24 bit/192Khz stereo mix.

Now I will tell you what I noticed on my DVD disk (besides a drop out at the end of back in the USSR). The overall audio volume is much lower (but the mix is great!). This could be by design for audiophiles. The DVD-A portion may have been provided to us with much less compression than the CD. Commercial CDs, in what seems to be an endless push to have the loudest sounding CD, have been pushing compression to it's limits. While some music can sound good like that, it's not the best use of what digital audio is capable of reproducing. What compression does is pushes up the volume of the more quiet portions of the music to something closer to loudest parts. It results in the overall boost to the average volume level. This has the illusion of sounding better to most of us (tests show that people, when comparing sound quality, will almost always chose the louder sample as sounding better). Compression is great if you are listening to music in a loud environment like a car or plane otherwise you'd need turn the volume up to hear the quiet parts. Then the peaks end up being too loud or start clipping (distortion). But for home use, in a quiet environment, the higher fidelity potential of a DVD-A (or even a CD) is better realized if the artist/producer make full use of the audio spectrum. I'm not anti compression. Some music styles work better with compression. Compression can be used in very artistic ways. I just wish it wasn't over used in the race to the top of the loudest sounding CDs.

Sorry for the diatribe. I know I'm not the first on the web to attack the over-use of compression in audio.

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by geobrick

I believe the DVD audio content on the disk is only a stereo mix. That is the limit of the DVD-A spec when it's recorded at 24 bit 192Khz which is what the DVD-A portion of "Love" may be recorded at (can anyone confirm the DVD-A resolution used?).

If you try 'Love' on a DVD-A player, you should be getting the typical 5.1-channel 96/24 MLP track.

The audio from the DVD video format is 5.1 (by the way, there is only audio on the disk which makes the term DVD-Video confusing when referring to an audio disk).

"DVD video" in this case refers to the three audio tracks (out of four) that meet the DVD-V spec (for playback on regular DVD players), not the actual presence of moving video content (though there is video on this disc, albiet still images with song titles).

Sanjay

[geobrick]

Originally Posted by sdurani

If you try 'Love' on a DVD-A player, you should be getting the typical 5.1-channel 96/24 MLP track.

Sanjay

Sanjay, Is there a way to know what resolution was used for the DVD-A audio on a particular disc?

'Love" is my first DVD-A disc. I have had a DVD-A player for months now. It has a setting to insure the DVD-A content has the priority for playback. But I can't know if it's 5.1 since I have it hooked up digitally to my reciever which is currently only feeding 2 speakers so it's set up for stereo. It can decode dolby and DTS 5.1 but I'm not using it that way now.

Does the DVD-A provide the 5.1 MLP via the digital outs or is it only 5.1 from the DVD-A player's analog outputs?

GB

[lchiu7]

I think the MLP 5.1 outputs are only really available on the analogue outputs unless you have a DVD-A player that supports HDMI 1.1(?) and a receiver that also supports that. Or the Denon players that outputs MLP digital over Firewire.

[geobrick]

Originally Posted by sdurani

If you try 'Love' on a DVD-A player, you should be getting the typical 5.1-channel 96/24 MLP track.

Sanjay

OK, I checked it by checking the analog outputs of the DVD-A player. The DVD-A portion of the "Love" DVD IS in 5.1 surround.

What's coming out of the digital output of my DVD-A player seems to be a PCM stereo mix when I'm using DVD-A mode (and of course a 5.1 DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 stream while in DVD-Video mode).

I'm still not sure why the average volume level of the DVD-A mode is about half as loud as the CD and DVD-Video. It could be the lack of extreme dynamic range compression as I stated in a previous post.

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by geobrick

Sanjay, Is there a way to know what resolution was used for the DVD-A audio on a particular disc?

In this particular case, I relied on reviews. In order to hear the hi-rez MLP track, I have to transmit it to my processor via 6 analogue cables, so it cannot display the resolution data (as it can for DD or DTS or 2-channel PCM).

Speaking of reviews, you may want to check this one out:

http://www.avrev.com/music/revs/0107/beatles_love.shtml

Does the DVD-A provide the 5.1 MLP via the digital outs or is it only 5.1 from the DVD-A player's analog outputs?

The 5.1-channel MLP tracks cannot be transmitted via the coax or optical connection, only via analogue or HDMI.

What's coming out of the digital output of my DVD-A player seems to be a PCM stereo mix when I'm using DVD-A mode (and of course a 5.1 DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 stream while in DVD-Video mode).

Sounds like everything is working correctly. On my player, the 2-channel PCM track is in the DVD-V section along with the DD and DTS tracks, but that's not a big deal one way or the other.

The DVD-Video spec allows for 2-channels of 96/24 PCM, though the 2-channel track on 'Love' is a port-over from the CD (44/16 resolution).

I hope you get to hear the multi-channel mix on this title; it's absolutely stunning. The front soundstage images well beyond the front speakers, the surround effects are tastefully done, and the lead vocals are all in the centre channel.

BTW, the dropout between 'Back in the USSR' and 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps' is not a dropout but instead a layer change.

Sanjay

[BIslander]

My player (a Denon 2900) displays the audio format/resolution of the track it is playing. The Love DVD-Audio only has a multichannel 96/24 track. There's no stereo mix on the DVD-Audio disc.

[geobrick]

Originally Posted by sdurani

BTW, the dropout between 'Back in the USSR' and 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps' is not a dropout but instead a layer change.

Sanjay

Thanks Sanjay, I did notice the DVD player sounded like it was searching for something at the point the drop out Occurred. I assumed it was trying to resolve an error on the disk. I suppose a better DVD-A player would be able to compensate with a memory buffer of some type. I wish I knew this before I reported the problem to amazon.com. They are sending me a new disk and are paying the return shipment of the one I thought was defective.

[geobrick]

Originally Posted by BIslander

My player (a Denon 2900) displays the audio format/resolution of the track it is playing. The Love DVD-Audio only has a multichannel 96/24 track. There's no stereo mix on the DVD-Audio disc.

I assume my DVD-A player is doing the mixdown internally and outputting it on the fiber digitally. The analog outs are all working fine (5 plus the sub). This happens at the same the digital out is playing a stereo mix. I doubt the player is capable of playing both the multi channel DVD-A at the same time as the DVD-V stereo mix since they are located at different spots on the disk. The player must be processing a stereo mix from the 5.1 audio. The player has analog outputs for Front (L&R), Center, Surround (L&R) and Subwoofer. It also has an analog out called mixdown (L&R). If it's not a mix coming from the digital out, it could be I am only getting the 2 front channels.

As an experiment, it would be nice if someone can tell me a specific sound or instrument that is definitely not heard on the front left or right speakers. In 5.1 mode, I should not be able to hear that sound with just the 2 speakers hooked up. But if I am hearing a mixdown, I should hear it.

[geobrick]

Originally Posted by sdurani

I hope you get to hear the multi-channel mix on this title; it's absolutely stunning. The front soundstage images well beyond the front speakers, the surround effects are tastefully done, and the lead vocals are all in the centre channel.

Sanjay

I'm close. I have some good front speaker but I need a good center speaker. My sub is ok. I bought some 8" polk ceiling speakers for the surrounds but I have not installed them yet. I have not been impressed with any wall or ceiling speakers (it's very apparent when you compare them with any floor or shelf speaker) but it's really my only option for surround speakers.

I'll get there soon.

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by geobrick

I suppose a better DVD-A player would be able to compensate with a memory buffer of some type.

Yes. A friend of mine has Denon's top of the line player (forgot the model number) and layer changes are invisible. Must have a large buffer. Unfortunately, I have an old DVD-Video/Audio player (Panasonic RP-82), which very clearly announces every layer change to the user lucky me).

Sanjay

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by BIslander

There's no stereo mix on the DVD-Audio disc.

Sure there is. In fact, there are four tracks to choose from on the 'Love' DVD-A disc: 5.1 MLP (96/24), 2.0 PCM (44/16), DD & DTS 5.1 (both at 48kHz).

Sanjay

[s2silber]

If you've got a DVD-A capable player, and you specify "Audio" as your choice in the set-up menu, you won't see the DD, DTS and Stereo PCM layers. And if you've got it set to "Video" you won't see the DVD-A (MLP 96/24) choice.

[Jack Gilvey]

I do get a layer-change pause on my Denon 2900, but it's still quicker than flipping an LP.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by sdurani

Sure there is. In fact, there are four tracks to choose from on the 'Love' DVD-A disc: 5.1 MLP (96/24), 2.0 PCM (44/16), DD & DTS 5.1 (both at 48kHz).

Sanjay

Aren't the 2.0 PCM, DD & DTS tracks on the DVD-Video area? I interpreted the original discussion as an inquiry about an MLP stereo mix on the DVD-Audio portion of the disk. DVD-As sometimes have such as mix, a few with 192/24 resolution. But not Love, as far as I can tell.

[sdurani]

Originally Posted by BIslander

I interpreted the original discussion as an inquiry about an MLP stereo mix on the DVD-Audio portion of the disk.

I was responding to your comment "there's no stereo mix on the DVD-Audio disc". You didn't mention anything about the AUDIO_TS folder.

Sanjay