1080p-720p shoot-out in Athens!

takisot · 12-13-06, 08:51 AM

A very interesting shoot-out was organized last Saturday in Athens by the Greek www.avclub.gr, where 35 of its members were invited to comment on the differences between the 720 and 1080 DLP panels when fed by HD and SD material.

As sources we used two HTPCs with identical Hardware and Software configuration: Hardware: P4 at 3.0, ATI X800 PRO graphics card,1gb memory,asus m/b.
Software: For SD zoom player 4.51 (VMR9 renderless, dscaler 5008 decoders, reclock 1.5b, 2X lanczos resize) For HD: Media Player Classic (Overlay, Dscaler 5008 decoders) ATI Catalyst driver version 6.5.
As reference clips, the following were used:
HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira “Tortura” mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i)
HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i)
SD FILM: SW III, Chronicles of ridick, Sin City, Alexander, Van Helsing (all 720X576)

We used two Marantz projectors (VP11-S1 1080p & VP12-S4 720p) which were D65 calibrated and were matched in brightness.

The interesting thing was that we managed to have both projectors to project the same half picture simultaneously on the same Dalitte High Contrast DaMatt screen at about 130’! This way it was very easy to draw conclusions without having to even turn your head from the screen!

Each one was connected to a HTPC via a dvi to hdmi Oelbach cable and at the native resolution of each projector ( 720p for VP12-S4 and 1080p for VP11-S1) with 1:1 pixel mapping.
The results were really eye-opening: The majority of the people present felt that from a distance of 4 meters and beyond from the 130’ screen, the resolution difference between the two projectors was from minimal to insignificant! We even had 3-4 people who in fact thought that the 720 projector was the 1080 one! Some thought that the 1080 had better depth, but all agreed that if you have a very good 720 projector and you are not planning to sit very close to the screen or to project more than 130’, then the upgrade to 1080 is not necessary.
Both projectors threw a glorious image, in HD and in SD and did match perfectly with the HTPC as source. We also connected a BR player with 5-6 BR titles just to have a taste of the new HD reality. We all felt that the real revolution nowadays is not the 1080 projectors but the 1080 software which will transform our existing 720 projectors.
Also, on a personal note, I think that it might be a very wise idea to invest today on a top 720 projector like the Marantz S4 with great optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc, instead of a new 1080 projector with worse optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc if you don’t plan to have a very large screen (over 130’ ) in your house.

More screenshots:

PCMusicGuy · 12-13-06, 09:11 AM

This post will be a real eye opener for many I suspect. Thanks for this.

PAD · 12-13-06, 09:17 AM

Very interesting. I see more color in the top image in all the examples. Which one was that?

takisot · 12-13-06, 09:24 AM

The top one is the ..........model. (edit at the request of a member !)

Bear in mind that, although both were D65 calibrated it was not possible ( due to time restictions) to have in both models the exact same gamma and color i.e. there were some minor differences (if I remember correctly the 1080 had the magenda on the reference spot, when the 720 was a bit off).

danieledmunds · 12-13-06, 09:25 AM

This is so interesting, I hope the original poster doesn't say which is which - we can see if people can really tell 720p from 1080p! I am guessing the bottom is 1080p

EDIT: cheers, this will be fun

hoogs · 12-13-06, 09:25 AM

which one is top and which is bottom? I think the bottom looks better in the one photo that worked for me

takisot · 12-13-06, 09:30 AM

I must add that the we did not pause for the camera so these screenshots come from moving picture.

funlvr1965 · 12-13-06, 09:40 AM

how many hours were on bulb of the 1080p marantz? you say the screen was 130 inches? was that diagonal and was there good brightness at that size? how far was the projector from the screen?
thank you for your post and your results I have a 1080p marantz coming I have not had a chance to review one before purchasing but I feel the marantz is one I can purchase without seeing

Tryg · 12-13-06, 09:45 AM

Great review and experiment!

I'd guess the brighter one is the 1080p...newer bulb

Ntinos1972 · 12-13-06, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by takisot

The top one is the ..........model. (edit at the request of a member !)

Bear in mind that, although both were D65 calibrated it was not possible ( due to time restictions) to have in both models the exact same gamma and color i.e. there were some minor differences (if I remember correctly the 1080 had the magenda on the reference spot, when the 720 was a bit off).

I was there....

But I am affraid that Takisot wouldn't like to tell you which one is on the top....

Takis, thanks for the hospitality & sharing

Tryg · 12-13-06, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by takisot

Also, on a personal note, I think that it might be a very wise idea to invest today on a top 720 projector like the Marantz S4 with great optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc, instead of a new 1080 projector with worse optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc if you don’t plan to have a very large screen (over 130’ ) in your house.

I guess your conclusion was you liked the 720p better

Maybe that's why they made the Matterhorn chip a few years back? lower resolution looks better on DLPs?

takisot · 12-13-06, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funlvr1965

how many hours were on bulb of the 1080p marantz? you say the screen was 130 inches? was that diagonal and was there good brightness at that size? how far was the projector from the screen?
thank you for your post and your results I have a 1080p marantz coming I have not had a chance to review one before purchasing but I feel the marantz is one I can purchase without seeing

The 1080 had a new lamp (around 30 hours if I recall correctly) where the 720 had around 300.
The screen was around 130 inches in diagonal.
The brightness was more than adequate (the room was rather dark).
The pj's were about 4,5 meters from the screen.

I agree that those Marantz units are a safe bet, especially the 1080 comes with an excellent gamma tracking from the factory default values.

CMRA · 12-13-06, 09:55 AM

Based on what I see on my monitor, the upper images consistently best in all three screen shots. The brass versus copper appearance in the third SS is particularly telling.

takisot · 12-13-06, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tryg

I guess your conclusion was you liked the 720p better

Maybe that's why they made the Matterhorn chip a few years back? lower resolution looks better on DLPs?

No, actually I couldn't resolve the resolution differences from where I was standing (4 meters). In that respect, given that in my house I sit at 4,7 meters from my 110' screen, I guess I will hold on that 1080 upgrade for now..

Also, I disagree that the DLPs look better on lower resolution. I believe it is the other way around. The crispness I have seen in the DLPs with HIDeF material is not evident when I see the same material with SXRD or LCD. On the contrary, I always enjoy SD better with the Ruby SXRD of a friend of mine!

HT-Naimee · 12-13-06, 10:05 AM

I prefer the top one as far as light is concerned. The top one is a bit darker and IMHO more natural. The bottom one looks like very high lamp mode.

But I think you said that the brightness was matched, so maybe you could explain why they are so different.

I would say however that the bottom one is definitely the 1080p as it is much sharper. Given that both are showing the same HD/SD picture, on the first image you can see right through the palm tree in the bottom image and you cannot in the top image.

Could you tell us whether all three images were HD?

mpjohnst · 12-13-06, 10:07 AM

Take a look at the foliage in the first pic... much more detail and low-level definition in the bottom picture. If I had to guess, that would be the 1080p Marantz... also, the OP did mention it pushed towards magenta which would explain the color difference.
-Matt

Edit: HT-Naimee beat me to it while I was typing...

funlvr1965 · 12-13-06, 10:08 AM

thanks for your answers any other observations about the 1080p marantz would be appreciated as there doesnt seem to be very many members here in the u.s with this projector,I guess because at its price point many seek close alternatives that are not as expensive, for me it is a significant purchase but one I feel justified in making, the projector is not here yet so your observations are welcome indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by takisot

The 1080 had a new lamp (around 30 hours if I recall correctly) where the 720 had around 300.
The screen was around 130 inches in diagonal.
The brightness was more than adequate (the room was rather dark).
The pj's were about 4,5 meters from the screen.

I agree that those Marantz units are a safe bet, especially the 1080 comes with an excellent gamma tracking from the factory default values.

takisot · 12-13-06, 10:11 AM

Please, let me stress again that those are moving screenshots so the differences you may (or not) see in the images may be the result of the camera focus or a split-second frame difference.
Yes all pics above are HD.

HT-Naimee · 12-13-06, 10:26 AM

Well, unless the top one is in fact the 1080p, I guess the moving image didn't harm the pictures.
Please don't tell me the bottom one is the 720p!

jacksonian · 12-13-06, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpjohnst

Take a look at the foliage in the first pic... much more detail and low-level definition in the bottom picture. If I had to guess, that would be the 1080p Marantz... also, the OP did mention it pushed towards magenta which would explain the color difference.
-Matt

Edit: HT-Naimee beat me to it while I was typing...

I can't say for sure, but those differences to me look like differences in shadow detail much more than resolution. And I would have a hard time looking at any of those pics and saying one was "much sharper".

I agree with the OP. I think for most people at normal viewing distances, they probably won't discern much of a difference.

Thank you so much for posting this! I was just thinking that I had not seen a good comparison of 720p vs. 1080p pjs with HiDef material.

Andrikos · 12-13-06, 10:34 AM

Awesome review patrida!

Ntinos1972 · 12-13-06, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrikos

Awesome review patrida!

johnathan · 12-13-06, 10:40 AM

Thanks for the comparison. My main reason for getting 1080P is that the pixels are so much smaller. I have lived with varying degrees of screen door with the last 3 projectors over the last 7 years. I hope the new JVC RS1 will alleviate this problem with the high fill factor and small pixels.

On your photos I agree that I seem to see more detail in the lower photos but it could be from motion also. Very interesting that there doesn't seem to be more difference ! Johnathan

Ken Stokes · 12-13-06, 10:41 AM

Great thread!
THere are so many variables here. When I first looked at it on my laptop I thought the second pictures were much nicer. In my office I have a high end tube architectural monitor and the top pictures have more detail.

I wish I there in person!

Ken

blackbird · 12-13-06, 10:43 AM

Great Review

Alan Gouger · 12-13-06, 10:48 AM

I agree with this as long as you are at the proper seating distance. Nice to see a fresh idea for a shoot out.

funlvr1965 · 12-13-06, 10:51 AM

getting pretty excited Alan, the projector is due to arrive tomorrow however im doing work in california at the moment, my wife will pick it up from our local ups on friday and I will be home on saturday morning

jacksonian · 12-13-06, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Gouger

I agree with this as long as you are at the proper seating distance. Nice to see a fresh idea for a shoot out.

Definitely agree, but 13 feet from a 130" screen (that is correct, isn't it?) is much closer than most of us would sit, isn't it? What's the viewing distance ratio on that?

HoustonHoyaFan · 12-13-06, 11:04 AM

In spite of the resolution limitations of screenshot, I will take the bottom picture from series 1. The folliage and buildings on the shoreline have much more detail.

Tom Bley · 12-13-06, 11:21 AM

I prefer the bottom image. I can tell the 1080 image because it seems to really be noticable on foliage. I found this out when I looked at a Pearl and compared it to my 720 dlp. Take image 1 for example, better detail is noticed in the leaves of the trees.

12-13-06, 08:51 AM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
takisot F.P. berserk! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,058	1080p-720p shoot-out in Athens! A very interesting shoot-out was organized last Saturday in Athens by the Greek www.avclub.gr, where 35 of its members were invited to comment on the differences between the 720 and 1080 DLP panels when fed by HD and SD material. As sources we used two HTPCs with identical Hardware and Software configuration: Hardware: P4 at 3.0, ATI X800 PRO graphics card,1gb memory,asus m/b. Software: For SD zoom player 4.51 (VMR9 renderless, dscaler 5008 decoders, reclock 1.5b, 2X lanczos resize) For HD: Media Player Classic (Overlay, Dscaler 5008 decoders) ATI Catalyst driver version 6.5. As reference clips, the following were used: HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira “Tortura” mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i) HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i) SD FILM: SW III, Chronicles of ridick, Sin City, Alexander, Van Helsing (all 720X576) We used two Marantz projectors (VP11-S1 1080p & VP12-S4 720p) which were D65 calibrated and were matched in brightness. The interesting thing was that we managed to have both projectors to project the same half picture simultaneously on the same Dalitte High Contrast DaMatt screen at about 130’! This way it was very easy to draw conclusions without having to even turn your head from the screen! Each one was connected to a HTPC via a dvi to hdmi Oelbach cable and at the native resolution of each projector ( 720p for VP12-S4 and 1080p for VP11-S1) with 1:1 pixel mapping. The results were really eye-opening: The majority of the people present felt that from a distance of 4 meters and beyond from the 130’ screen, the resolution difference between the two projectors was from minimal to insignificant! We even had 3-4 people who in fact thought that the 720 projector was the 1080 one! Some thought that the 1080 had better depth, but all agreed that if you have a very good 720 projector and you are not planning to sit very close to the screen or to project more than 130’, then the upgrade to 1080 is not necessary. Both projectors threw a glorious image, in HD and in SD and did match perfectly with the HTPC as source. We also connected a BR player with 5-6 BR titles just to have a taste of the new HD reality. We all felt that the real revolution nowadays is not the 1080 projectors but the 1080 software which will transform our existing 720 projectors. Also, on a personal note, I think that it might be a very wise idea to invest today on a top 720 projector like the Marantz S4 with great optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc, instead of a new 1080 projector with worse optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc if you don’t plan to have a very large screen (over 130’ ) in your house. More screenshots: __________________ A Never Ending Quest Τowards Visual Nirvana..

12-13-06, 09:24 AM	#4 \| Link
takisot F.P. berserk! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,058	The top one is the ..........model. (edit at the request of a member !) Bear in mind that, although both were D65 calibrated it was not possible ( due to time restictions) to have in both models the exact same gamma and color i.e. there were some minor differences (if I remember correctly the 1080 had the magenda on the reference spot, when the 720 was a bit off). __________________ A Never Ending Quest Τowards Visual Nirvana..

12-13-06, 09:25 AM	#5 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
danieledmunds Advanced Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Bermuda Posts: 570	This is so interesting, I hope the original poster doesn't say which is which - we can see if people can really tell 720p from 1080p! I am guessing the bottom is 1080p EDIT: cheers, this will be fun __________________ Demo, demo and demo again. Last edited by danieledmunds; 12-13-06 at 09:47 AM..

12-13-06, 09:30 AM	#7 \| Link
takisot F.P. berserk! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,058	I must add that the we did not pause for the camera so these screenshots come from moving picture. __________________ A Never Ending Quest Τowards Visual Nirvana..

12-13-06, 09:45 AM	#9 \| Link
Tryg 18 years of digital AVS CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Washington Posts: 9,555	Great review and experiment! I'd guess the brighter one is the 1080p...newer bulb __________________ Screen Reviews High Power White, Gray or Silver? Screen Showcase and DIY High-Gain/Exotic

12-13-06, 09:11 AM	#2 \| Link
PCMusicGuy Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 141	This post will be a real eye opener for many I suspect. Thanks for this.

12-13-06, 09:17 AM	#3 \| Link
PAD Advanced Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 906	Very interesting. I see more color in the top image in all the examples. Which one was that?

12-13-06, 09:25 AM	#6 \| Link
hoogs Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 303	which one is top and which is bottom? I think the bottom looks better in the one photo that worked for me

12-13-06, 09:40 AM	#8 \| Link
funlvr1965 HT JUNKIE! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MADISON wisconsin Posts: 1,820 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	how many hours were on bulb of the 1080p marantz? you say the screen was 130 inches? was that diagonal and was there good brightness at that size? how far was the projector from the screen? thank you for your post and your results I have a 1080p marantz coming I have not had a chance to review one before purchasing but I feel the marantz is one I can purchase without seeing

12-13-06, 09:55 AM	#13 \| Link
CMRA AVS Special Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Diego, Ca. Posts: 6,991	Based on what I see on my monitor, the upper images consistently best in all three screen shots. The brass versus copper appearance in the third SS is particularly telling.

12-13-06, 10:05 AM	#15 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
HT-Naimee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 445	I prefer the top one as far as light is concerned. The top one is a bit darker and IMHO more natural. The bottom one looks like very high lamp mode. But I think you said that the brightness was matched, so maybe you could explain why they are so different. I would say however that the bottom one is definitely the 1080p as it is much sharper. Given that both are showing the same HD/SD picture, on the first image you can see right through the palm tree in the bottom image and you cannot in the top image. Could you tell us whether all three images were HD?

12-13-06, 10:07 AM	#16 \| Link
mpjohnst AVS Special Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 1,180	Take a look at the foliage in the first pic... much more detail and low-level definition in the bottom picture. If I had to guess, that would be the 1080p Marantz... also, the OP did mention it pushed towards magenta which would explain the color difference. -Matt Edit: HT-Naimee beat me to it while I was typing...

12-13-06, 10:11 AM	#18 \| Link
takisot F.P. berserk! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,058	Please, let me stress again that those are moving screenshots so the differences you may (or not) see in the images may be the result of the camera focus or a split-second frame difference. Yes all pics above are HD. __________________ A Never Ending Quest Τowards Visual Nirvana..

12-13-06, 10:26 AM	#19 \| Link
HT-Naimee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 445	Well, unless the top one is in fact the 1080p, I guess the moving image didn't harm the pictures. Please don't tell me the bottom one is the 720p!

12-13-06, 10:34 AM	#21 \| Link
Andrikos SuperDuperDude Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: RanchoSahuarita.com Posts: 3,840	Awesome review patrida! __________________ Next projector will have LEDs, >=1080 res, >=10 bit color, >14bit CR, >9 bit ANSI CR, >=120Hz, >16ft.L on 12ft 2.35:1 screen, <$12bit price My 1st line array design My ongoing Line Array Design

12-13-06, 10:40 AM	#23 \| Link
johnathan Thread Cooler Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Fort Worth / DFW Texas Posts: 919	Thanks for the comparison. My main reason for getting 1080P is that the pixels are so much smaller. I have lived with varying degrees of screen door with the last 3 projectors over the last 7 years. I hope the new JVC RS1 will alleviate this problem with the high fill factor and small pixels. On your photos I agree that I seem to see more detail in the lower photos but it could be from motion also. Very interesting that there doesn't seem to be more difference ! Johnathan __________________ I'm the "Thread Cooler" ! When I post that usually kills interest in the thread. See my Den to HT conversion thread !

12-13-06, 10:41 AM	#24 \| Link
Ken Stokes Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Greater Detroit Area Posts: 467	Great thread! THere are so many variables here. When I first looked at it on my laptop I thought the second pictures were much nicer. In my office I have a high end tube architectural monitor and the top pictures have more detail. I wish I there in person! Ken

12-13-06, 10:43 AM	#25 \| Link
blackbird Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austria Posts: 124	Great Review

12-13-06, 10:48 AM	#26 \| Link
Alan Gouger Not Really Here, Or Am I? AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Somewhere in the good ole USA Posts: 17,894 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	I agree with this as long as you are at the proper seating distance. Nice to see a fresh idea for a shoot out.

12-13-06, 10:51 AM	#27 \| Link
funlvr1965 HT JUNKIE! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MADISON wisconsin Posts: 1,820 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	getting pretty excited Alan, the projector is due to arrive tomorrow however im doing work in california at the moment, my wife will pick it up from our local ups on friday and I will be home on saturday morning

12-13-06, 11:04 AM	#29 \| Link
HoustonHoyaFan AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 3,500	In spite of the resolution limitations of screenshot, I will take the bottom picture from series 1. The folliage and buildings on the shoreline have much more detail.

12-13-06, 11:21 AM	#30 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Tom Bley AVS Special Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: IL. USA Posts: 1,551	I prefer the bottom image. I can tell the 1080 image because it seems to really be noticable on foliage. I found this out when I looked at a Pearl and compared it to my 720 dlp. Take image 1 for example, better detail is noticed in the leaves of the trees.