Format Battle General Discussion Thread: Discuss it here!

[markrubin]

This thread is intended for general discussions of the format battle



please remember these forum rules


Originally Posted by David Bott
MEMBER ABUSE IS NOT WELCOME
>>> NOTICE <<<

This area, as well as all areas of AVS Forum is for the discussion, support, and debate on various areas of the audio video world. This is not the place to attack others or to jump into a thread just to make for issues.

The area of high def media and media players is currently a very hot topic. If you can not conduct yourself in an adult manor, AVS FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOU TO POST.

As you enter into either the HD DVD or Blu-ray areas, you are to post thoughtfully on those topics and not come in just to attack someone outright or just to disrupt a chat that is happening. IT IS NOT WELCOME.

Attacking someone will result in the suspension of your posting rights on the site without warning. So, think before you type. Read what you wrote. Think about it some more. Then press submit.

We will not let the attacks continue. Remember, making a post to attack some back is just as bad as making the attack. You are also in the wrong. (Evil begets evil.)

To debate is one thing, to attack is another. PLEASE THINK.


And a word from our gracious Mod..

Originally Posted by markrubin
Forum Rules: Read This Before You Post
Welcome to the AVS HDTV Forums:

special rules apply to posting here: please observe them:

-No bashing other members
-Please no fighting or trolling
-if you disagree with something posted: challenge the information; not the poster
-make sure your information is accurate; cite the facts on which you base your post: if it is your opinion, qualify it as such
-are you an industry insider? identify yourself as such and do not use AVS to bash your competition

AVS is a technical forum: we expect posters to maintain a high techical and ethical standard in your posts

AVS has Moderators who volunteer to enforce these rules: Moderators can edit or delete your post and even recommend the suspension of posters who continually violate AVS rules

If you see a post that violates rules or is spam, contains bashing, trolling, etc: please do not respond to it: use the 'report this post to a Moderator' button and let the mods handle it



Please keep the discussions civil and technical in nature

[Grubert]

Thanks mark!!

Let me establish the tone...

OMFG the format war SUKKZZZ!!!1111

How was that?

[mikemorel]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Thanks mark!!

Let me establish the tone...

OMFG the format war SUKKZZZ!!!1111

How was that?

FORMAT WAR RULZZZZ - YOU'VE BEEN PWNNZZRRD!

[BrynRhys]

I really don't know where the HD DVD marketing dollars are going, if there are any. The Blu-Ray strategy seems to be everywhere at this point: live radio reads during talk shows, ads in magazines (Popular Mechanics, Dec.), Television spots on various channels, etc.
Blu-Ray is racking up the touches to the consumers and I have been unable to see any effort from HD DVD.

Have I just missed it?

[raaj]

Originally Posted by BrynRhys

I really don't know where the HD DVD marketing dollars are going, if there are any. The Blu-Ray strategy seems to be everywhere at this point: live radio reads during talk shows, ads in magazines (Popular Mechanics, Dec.), Television spots on various channels, etc.
Blu-Ray is racking up the touches to the consumers and I have been unable to see any effort from HD DVD.

Have I just missed it?

Nope you haven't. Coz there ain't any. Big games need big money brotha !!

If you ain't got the green, you ain't got the game.

[rdjam]

Yep - the format war sucks!

Let's end it by getting more movies on HD DVD!

[TomsHT]

Originally Posted by rdjam

Yep - the format war sucks!

Let's end it by getting more movies on HD DVD!

I'd agree to that if HD will announce some more titles to be released. I only see about 3 that I want out of the 20 announced so far

[gosawx]

Oh, I thought that someone who was a General in the format battle was posting here... A Sony VP, a Toshiba VP...

[wco81]

Well CNBC featured a story about how EVD might trump both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. But then at the end, they said "if they could get content support."

Read another story in the WSJ just the other day where CEA was cited as predicting 30 million HDTVs or 30% household penetration by the end of this year.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by BrynRhys

I really don't know where the HD DVD marketing dollars are going, if there are any. The Blu-Ray strategy seems to be everywhere at this point: live radio reads during talk shows, ads in magazines (Popular Mechanics, Dec.), Television spots on various channels, etc.
Blu-Ray is racking up the touches to the consumers and I have been unable to see any effort from HD DVD.

Have I just missed it?

Yeah, I think you may just be missing it.

This is the 2nd post I've seen refer to the Dec. Popular Mechanics magazine as if it were some sort of major problem for HD DVD. Has anyone seen the Jan/Feb issue of Premiere (with Spidey 3 on the cover)? Ads in there, plus a contest to win a player? Men's Health -- ads in the magazine and on the web site. I'm sure there are dozens of other magazines with HD DVD ads currently as well.

I've not only seen a Toshiba HD DVD commercial recently, but I've also seen the ads for individual big releases (Superman Returns, Miami Vice) mention HD DVD at the end.


Is it a huge ad blitz? Probably not. But I can't say that I've seen more BD ads than HD DVD. It's been about equal... and probably leaning more toward HD if I count banner ads on various web sites that I frequent.

[Amiable-Akuma]

Everybody support HD DVD!!! Thanks...

[Deja Vu]

Not much point in advertising something you don't have to sell! Where I am the big box stores haven't had one HD DVD player to sell since launch. Blu-Ray is everywhere, but not selling much. Toshiba's biggest problem, IMO, is not having the product to sell - not having as much studio support was bad enough, but not getting product into consumers hands is lethal. If there is going to be a real format war, as opposed to a skirmish, then some more manufacturers are going to have to come on board and pretty fast. If a consumer wants to support HD DVD but can't find a player and so buys a BR player instead then this game is over. I had to run from box store to box store in Tampa last spring to get my hands on an open box HD DVD player - in other words finding one of these things was a lot of work.

Momentum (perception) is ererything, though it does shift back and forth. My advice to Toshiba is simply this: 1) get the product out there; 2) turn the screws on the BR only studios to go neutral (use some of MS's money if need be); 3) buy space in the big box stores and pay them to promote the product; 4) get other manufacturers involved and quickly; and 5) get Universal to sell only HD DVD combos at a regular DVD price (so we can rent them anywhere and non HD DVD owners will buy them and become HD DVD owners down the road). If Toshiba isn't working hard on these things then they're wasting everybody's time and money and BR wins by default.

Its hard to believe that with so much against it that HD DVD is still presently in the race - says something for the product.

Cheers,

Grant

[markrubin]

why don't we all be format neutral?

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by markrubin

why don't we all be format neutral?

You know, I'd love it if the studios took that attitude. That would solve the only issue that I currently have with my format of choice.

[Rusty James]

Originally Posted by markrubin

why don't we all be format neutral?

I'd ask Fox, Disney and Universal the same thing.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by markrubin

why don't we all be format neutral?

The answer is obvious: because money doesn't grow on trees (thank you, dad!). The moment we buy hardware and software from a format, we invest in it. So, after 'putting your money where your mouth is,' the logical next step is 'putting your mouth where your money is.'

This goes beyond the LCD vs plasma arguments. After all, if suddenly it is decided that plasma is obsolete and needs to die, your plasma screen will continue to operate happily and unimpeded for years. However, if Format X dies, what you'll have left is a big ugly fat f***er of a DVD player (and not even multiregion at that), which you probably won't throw away only because you have several dozen movies that will play on that deck only. And vice versa.

So we all want the best format to win. And of course, each of us has chosen the best format in existence. Who's to prove us wrong?

[scaesare]

Originally Posted by markrubin

why don't we all be format neutral?

Believe it or not... I kinda am. I've ony bought one, but it's because that's what my budget would allow, but I'd much rather not have to pay 2X or players, or have to forego some titles.

So, here are some gripes (aka debate fodder) about the situataion in general:

- Player Prices: The need to come down, and eventually will... HD DVD has the lead here, but hopefully lots of CE support will help BR as well. And player refinement can hopefully get us to sub-$300 players soon.

- Interactivity support: In my opinion the BDA has botched this by not really communicating what's going on with profiles to the general public. HDDVD has their act together moreso, but I wish they had some game plan for interactivity that didn't assume 60i output (see below). Both sides will need updates for fixes... but that's not a slam on either in my opinion.

-24p support: BDA has their act together better on this. I hope Sony's player applies the appropriate pressure on both sides to make this a checklist item. That having been said HDDVD's greater flexabilty in mix-N-match frametrates for vrious streams on the disc also makes this issue stickier. (My belief: Follow the primary feature framerate if your display supports it. PiP and IME should be frame-doubled/-decimated as need be to match)

- Codec support: BDA/studios needs to get over it and simply select the codec that firstly provides the best A/V experience, and secondly maximizes the file size for usage in connected environments. HD DVD has been more consistent here.

- AACS/MC/MMC: C'mon guys.. finsih the dang thing and let us have it. Both sides are at the mercy of the interim agreement.

That's all I can think of for the moment...

What I REALLY want is for the format battle to go on just long enough to competitively drive prices down and feature sets up, and then one side can tank and we can all choose a single format and get all our movies!

[fa8362]

Originally Posted by Grubert

The answer is obvious: because money doesn't grow on trees (thank you, dad!). The moment we buy hardware and software from a format, we invest in it. So, after 'putting your money where your mouth is,' the logical next step is 'putting your mouth where your money is.'

I disagree. I think the next logical step would be to watch HD movies, not frequent a message board to argue about formats. I don't agree that arguing about this stuff is logical.

[markrubin]

Originally Posted by fa8362

I disagree. I think the next logical step would be to watch HD movies, not frequent a message board to argue about formats. I don't agree that arguing about this stuff is logical.

Hmmm

he may have a point here:

everyone stop posting and go watch an HD movie on your fav optical disc format

[wco81]

Originally Posted by markrubin

why don't we all be format neutral?

In the long run, we'd be better off if one format wins and support consolidates around one format. That is why DVD was successful. Imagine if Sony and Philips didn't compromise just before the DVD was launched.

In the short run, I would admit the war has pushed both sides to step up their game, whether in pushing down prices or in the backlash Sony Pictures have gotten. Plus Blu-Ray should know they can't be complacent and take their time with BD-50, BD-Live or integrating advanced codecs.

But really, we need to let the market judge a winner sooner rather than later so that studios can concentrate on releasing content for one instead of dribbling out releases tentatively. One format will help with economies of scale for component suppliers and the overall HW supply chain.

I'm pulling for Blu-Ray to win because of greater capacity, greater bandwidth and better writable support. Plus it's closer to getting universal (not Universal ) support. I also believe that studios need to target BD50 for their encodes rather than targeting for HD-DVD-DL and using it for both formats.

However, I will accept HD-DVD if it gains broad market acceptance and gets universal HW and SW support. Prefer one format, either one, than the status quo of both formats fighting each other, when we should just get one format to drive HD adoption. That will get studios to transition from DVD to HD and release more content.

So I don't think format neutrality or buying both formats is the answer. Plus at best, this approach can only be taken by a small percentage of the market -- affluent enthusiasts willing to spend more money than most consumers. IOW, there are not enough people to support both formats. In fact, there may not be enough willing buyers to support one HD optical disc format (despite the expected 30% US household penetration by the end of this month). This could be LaserDiscs all over again.

[BenDover]

Originally Posted by markrubin

Hmmm

he may have a point here:

everyone stop posting and go watch an HD movie on your fav optical disc format

[reshp1]

Does anyone have a link to the history behind the format war, from the beginning? I'm sure it depends completely on who you ask, but an objective timeline of the events that lead up the the "war" would be nice.

[BrynRhys]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Yeah, I think you may just be missing it.

Thanks, that's why I asked. I had noticed all the Blu-Ray advertising without looking for it, but couldn't recall seeing anything for HD DVD.

I'll keep my eyes open.

[2Channel]

Originally Posted by markrubin

Hmmm

he may have a point here:

everyone stop posting and go watch an HD movie on your fav optical disc format

I don't think that's good for AVS. Isn't that a little like a TV station telling its viewers to go read a book?

[minidiscbob]

Originally Posted by markrubin

why don't we all be format neutral?

That would be great...BRING ON THE MULTI-FORMAT PLAYERS!!

[Kosty]

Ahh

This needs to be made sticky if its to suck the trivia from the news thread

[markrubin]

Originally Posted by Kosty

Ahh

This needs to be made sticky if its to suck the trivia from the news thread

stuck

[scaesare]

...continuing from the issues regarding profiles on BR from the News thread...

It was pointed out that the BDA forum says this about BD-Live:

Some Blu-ray Disc Players, those with Internet connections can connect to the internet which enables the end user to download additional content to the player’s internal memory, as well as the ability to enjoy unique, “web-enabled” interactive features.

To which I asked: "Are the players that have ethernet connections today BD-Live capable players?"

Now in another post, the following disclaimer is on Pioneer's page:

This player does not support direct connection to the Internet or the retrieval of content through the Internet. Pioneer provides a Limited Firware Warranty for firmware updates in the event of playability issues with some commercially pre-recored discs, however, firmware updates for this Player will not include upgrades for Internet access or retreival of content.

The BDA and Pioneer seem to be at odds here?

Would those who stated that existing players would likely be upgradable to BD-Live care to comment?

[Kosty]

Originally Posted by BenDover

I make it a point to watch a HD DVD movies or a upconverted SD DVD movie every day. That's why I sometimes post in the middle of the night!

The problem I have right now is I have netflixed HD DVD movies and HD DVD movies I have bought sitting on the shelf because I don't have time to watch them all, even though I watch more movies than a normal human.

That's why I think that the studio support issue will be less a factor in the initial purchase decision as time goes on, and price more a factor. The price factor favors HD DVD.

I think the studio support factor becomes neutral for J6P when more than a couple hundred HD DVD or Blu-ray movies are on the shelf, because nobody can watch 100 movies in a reasonable period of time. Once a buyer sees I can buy a bunch of movies fro $19.99 or less that I want to watch, theres a critical tipping point where x amount of movies available is enough to support the buying decision.

HD DVD also has the advantage in sd DVD upconversion being available in teh low end players.

[WayneL]

Originally Posted by wco81

I'm pulling for Blu-Ray to win because of greater capacity, greater bandwidth and better writable support.

Smarter is better than Bigger. Smarter and Bigger is even better, but that seems to escape Sony.