The Official Vista Cable Card Thread

[curtis104]

I am so excited about the coming of the Cable Card that I thought I would start this thread. I am hoping some insiders can reveal some information of whats to come in the release of Cable Cards and Vista. I know that Niveus Media company have an OEM version of the cards and have been testing them with their systems. There was a good interview with the CEO of Niveus Media on The Media Center Show where he talks about the Cable Card and HD-DVD.

The main feature I am looking for which is not available at the moment is to be able to watch Premium channels in HD through the Media Center. I know of many of the negative sides of Cable Cards, for ex. that they are not two way compatible and not able to do On Demand right now. But I can live with that for now. I would love to see if anyone have any pics or inside info on them. Hopefully some company, outside of the Big company who will sell them with there system, will sell OEM units that we can install ourselves. I am looking to install one in my newly purchased Ahanix MCE 701 system. Looking forward to hear all the comments.

[ChrisL01]

Even if someone is to sell you the OCUR (CableCARD reader), it will not work by just plugging it in. You are going to be purchasing a new system if you want CableCARD.

Chris

[curtis104]

Originally Posted by ChrisL01

Even if someone is to sell you the OCUR (CableCARD reader), it will not work by just plugging it in. You are going to be purchasing a new system if you want CableCARD.

Chris

I heard this before somewhere but no one has said why it will not work. Can you give me some details as to why this will not work in another system. Is it drivers, new mobo, connectors, etc....

Surely like everything else there maybe some hack/diy guide to install these in another system.

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by curtis104

I heard this before somewhere but no one has said why it will not work. Can you give me some details as to why this will not work in another system. Is it drivers, new mobo, connectors, etc....

Because cablelab requires the whole system to be certified, for like $15k... You would think someone starting an "official" thread would have done a bit more leg-work...

[Jimwesternguy]

I'm hoping some manufacturer will offer a bare bones or low end certified system that can be upgraded....new case, processor, hard drives etc.

[curtis104]

Originally Posted by Fonceur

Because cablelab requires the whole system to be certified, for like $15k... You would think someone starting an "official" thread would have done a bit more leg-work...

There is always an IDIOT in the group!

[ChrisL01]

Originally Posted by curtis104

I heard this before somewhere but no one has said why it will not work. Can you give me some details as to why this will not work in another system. Is it drivers, new mobo, connectors, etc....

Surely like everything else there maybe some hack/diy guide to install these in another system.

There are specific bits both in Windows and outside of Windows that are needed. The hardware itself is the smallest part of the picture. You can only get the other parts needed if you are a Microsoft Certified OEM (not System Builder).

Chris

[ChrisL01]

Originally Posted by Fonceur

Because cablelab requires the whole system to be certified, for like $15k... You would think someone starting an "official" thread would have done a bit more leg-work...

Nope, only the OCUR is certified by CableLabs. The rest of the system however, still has to meet specific bars that have been set by CableLabs.

Chris

[walford]

Here is a link to a picture of ATI's USB based OCUR unit which was shown at last Years CES show:

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2662

I expect that we will all know more details and have an idea of the avaialbility of the new certified Vista systems from the OEM vendors with OCUR units by the end of this years CES show which starts Jan 8th in Las Vegas.

[lstepnio]

You're seriously kidding yourself if you honestly think this is going to be an OEM only solution. I would be shocked if you couldn't purchase the "OEM" shortly after it's released despite any FUD.

The most difficult part is having your cable company to authorize the CC that install in your system. The CC is tied to the device (not the whole PC just the CC device) so it's not like you can have them install it in your CC television/STB and move it over to your PC.

[edrossy]

I would be very surprised to see CableCard PCs in the near future...keep on dreaming?
What I can see is a linx based dvr (closed system) sharing/streaming encrypted content (live and recorded tv) on a home network....thats it.

[bruce24]

[quote=lstepnio]The most difficult part is having your cable company to authorize the CC that install in your system. The CC is tied to the device (not the whole PC just the CC device)[quote]

I though if the device is Cablelabs/Cablecard certified, the cable provider had to support it.

[WSW]

From what I've read the driver will not load on a system that doesn't have a hardware counter part on the system ie a code in hardware. The talk from the start has been that one requirement for cable card support is a ViiV motherboard. ViiV being a join venture of Intel and Microsoft to built a secure multimedia platform would tend to lend some logic to the idea that the drivers will be restricted with a hardware solution.

[sotti]

Originally Posted by edrossy

I would be very surprised to see CableCard PCs in the near future...keep on dreaming?
What I can see is a linx based dvr (closed system) sharing/streaming encrypted content (live and recorded tv) on a home network....thats it.

I will be very suprised if I don't see CableCard PCs by the end of march.

It's going to happen, ATI has demoed hardware, Microsoft has announced software support, Cables companies have been legislated into supporting it.

It's just a waiting game for Vista to hit retail and the final kinks on the software side get worked out.

[ChrisL01]

I would say the kinks are out, machines have been out for months with OCUR's, just none retail.

Chris

[BigAl]

I'm sure cablecard will be either right at vista launch or shortly thereafter.

I am reading some disturbing info. I know that MS had to build a protected path to get the cableco's to allow MCE to record premium content and that this would mean the content would not be viewable on any system not part of that protected path environment. But I did think that an extender like the 360 would be able to stream the content as it would be viewed as another component of the protected path of the MCE system.

On Paul Thurrotts recent article on winsupersite he stated it would only be playable on the machine it was recorded on. If the extenders can't stream this content, what's the use of an extender?

I hope this was just a bit of mis-information on Paul's part. This goes against everything I'd read up to this point.

[edrossy]

Viiv?
Does anyone really know what that means?
Is it Intel Hardware Based Content Protected Path?
Did anyone say monopoly? What about AMD based motherboards?
Viiv is an intel hardware certification for intel only hardware!
More BS for people like us to spend more money on hardware.
I can understand HDCP graphics cards....but Viiv? Bull....S...H...I....T!

This is really a joke! GIMMICK!!!

[ChrisL01]

Originally Posted by BigAl

I'm sure cablecard will be either right at vista launch or shortly thereafter.

I am reading some disturbing info. I know that MS had to build a protected path to get the cableco's to allow MCE to record premium content and that this would mean the content would not be viewable on any system not part of that protected path environment. But I did think that an extender like the 360 would be able to stream the content as it would be viewed as another component of the protected path of the MCE system.

On Paul Thurrotts recent article on winsupersite he stated it would only be playable on the machine it was recorded on. If the extenders can't stream this content, what's the use of an extender?

I hope this was just a bit of mis-information on Paul's part. This goes against everything I'd read up to this point.

Paul often has mis-information on features he doesn't test.

You can always take the information from Microsoft/CableLabs....

"...These Media Center PCs, capable of supporting a CableCARD module, will allow consumers to enjoy one-way cable programming, including premium high-definition cable content, on their personal computer and throughout the home on compliant network-connected devices, such as Xbox 360, while protecting cable operators’ investments in high-value content in a digital environment."

Originally Posted by edrossy

Viiv?
Does anyone really know what that means?
Is it Intel Hardware Based Content Protected Path?
Did anyone say monopoly? What about AMD based motherboards?
Viiv is an intel hardware certification for intel only hardware!
More BS for people like us to spend more money on hardware.
I can understand HDCP graphics cards....but Viiv? Bull....S...H...I....T!

This is really a joke! GIMMICK!!!

Considering ATI is the only company currently making an OCUR, somehow I have doubts that Intel Viiv is a must when using a piece of AMD/ATI made hardware.

Plus, Viiv is marketing just as Centrino is. You don't really "need" Centrino, but the idea is you can market these groups of technologies under a cute name and people then know what to look for.

Also, remember that the only "DRM" that is in Viiv is would be software to support DTCP-IP (Viiv 1.5), and most likely upcoming TPM in newer models. TPM would only be used for software applications that demand it. If you don't like/want it, don't use the software that needs it.

Chris

[BigAl]

Usually Paul is a pretty good source of info, although in this case he did mention he hasn't had the cablecard tuner. Yes, cablelabs is the best source of info but I've had a difficult time finding relevant consumer oriented info on their website in the past. I haven't checked recently... apparently it's time I head back there. Thanks Chris.

[walford]

Just because ATI was the only company that showed an OCUR tuner at last years CES does not mean that we see other manufacturers offering next month. I expect Hauppauge to offer one.
I also expect that we will see some non VISTA Media Center cable card tuners announced this year.
It will be interesting to see what graphics cards the different manufactuers use in the Cable Card capable Vista systems. Some may offer basic 1080i capable cards like the NVIDIA 7600GT and others may offer top of the line cards with HDMI w/hdcp and digital audio. Anybody that has seen a CC card Vista system or anybody else for that matter have any ideas about the graphics cards that will be used.

[ChrisL01]

I wouldn't expect non-Vista Media Center CableCARD solutions yet. If you look, you will find that Vista Media Center is the only "HMS" (Home Media Server) that CableLabs has defined in the OCUR documents.

Sure, other companies might be able to get their software supported (for example, Beyond, Sage, etc) but considering their software was not built around protecting content (example, they record to MPEG-2 w/o a wrapper) it's not easy. Other companies will have to adopt something like DVR-MS to even get their foot in the door. Then there are several other methods, like CGMS-A that need to be in place too. Anyone who records HBO on a PC might known that Media Center is the only PC PVR to support CGMS-A.

Software supporting the standards is one thing, the next is hardware and drivers. You can bet you will need hardware to support HDCP, CGMS-A, COPP, Macrovision, etc. Video cards will likely range from whatever NVIDIA/ATI have on the high end in systems from companies like Niveus Media, and most likely a range of mid-to-high end in systems from HP, Dell, etc dependings on the price point of the system.

HDCP is a must, so that narrows down the OEM's selection of cards.

For audio, I'd expect hardware can follows the new UAA Driver Model (ex. HD Audio)

Chris

[Gary J]

Does this mean the video can be streamed to a display device other than a computer monitor? If so would it have to be HDCP? Could it stream analog?

[ChrisL01]

Depending on your definition of "streamed," yes. Content can be streamed to Media Center Extenders (Xbox 360 and upcoming v2 Extenders).

My comment on HDCP being a must was more on the basis that any PC sold with an OCUR will included HDCP-enabled video cards. Still will be able to output over analog connections, but HDMI/DVI-HDCP will be needed for a "guarantee" of full resolution output on all content.

I'm still not sure what Microsoft's plan is with the Xbox 360 as an Extender. Seeing as there is no digital output, the best that can be guaranteed is 540p.

Chris

[Gary J]

So then a PC with OCUR should be able to output VGA straight to a TV with full resolution?

[ChrisL01]

No, just as with the Xbox the best you are going to get is 540p.

Chris

[halcy81]

A VP and head software guy from Microsoft's eHome division came and gave a presentation at stanford a month or so ago and I drilled them about what the hardware protection mechanisms are in OCUR and they said there was code in the bios specifically for it, I don't remember if they said anything additional was on the motherboard or not. But they also said that if you had an OCUR device on a non protected system you could still tune and record all the non encrypted content, IE all the stuff a QAM tuner could pick up by default.

[halcy81]

Also, I am going to conjecture here that it isn't going to be a problem to get the OCUR tuning device, because people with fully enabled OCUR machines may want to get another device so they can record another channel at a time etc. But if you install it in a non OCUR enabled machine then it will simply be a QAM capable tuner and will not be able to decrypt cable card content.

[fender4645]

Originally Posted by halcy81

Also, I am going to conjecture here that it isn't going to be a problem to get the OCUR tuning device, because people with fully enabled OCUR machines may want to get another device so they can record another channel at a time etc. But if you install it in a non OCUR enabled machine then it will simply be a QAM capable tuner and will not be able to decrypt cable card content.

Do we know for a fact that the initial tuning devices will only support a single 1.0 CableCARD? If so, that would be a huge determent as almost all new QAM recording devices (S3 and MSO STB's) offer at least 2 tuners out of the box.

[Naylia]

If I had to guess...and I'm pulling this out of you know where...each device would support 1 CableCard and that after they get the initial bugs worked out the machines will be able to simultaneously support mutiple devices...ie 2 or more PCI cards, w/ 1 CableCard each, and then after a quite bit more time you'll see 2 slots on the same PCI card or USB device.

[ChrisL01]

OCUR's support CableCARD 1.0, and a max of two OCUR's are offically supported in Vista Media Center, meaning two CableCARD's. All OCUR's, both internal and external, are USB 2.0 devices.

Chris