The unofficial HSU MK3 Thread

[bittermelon]

I ordered and received in 6 days a HSU VTF-2 MK3. It's a beast as it's much larger in real life. It makes my Paradigm Monitor 11 v.4 look smaller now. My previous sub was an Athena P4000 and when I bought it, it was light years ahead in tightness, dynamics and able to reach down to about 27Hz flat with the help of a BFD vs. my Craptachi 10" 100W subwoofer, but I wanted to feel the sub slam into my chest the way my friend's Servo 15 does, but without paying that much. I had my eyes on the eD a2-300, but with numerous delays after ordering over a month and that guy from Montreal having his stop working after the second day, I cancelled.
I am a cheapskate. If I can get maximum return on my dollars, that is where I'll spend it. This methodology hasn't worked so far as I've replaced my receiver and all my front speakers twice by cheaping out the first time around. I should have bought the Pioneer 1015 the first time around and the Paradigm Monitor 11's the first time around as that was exactly the performance I was looking for.
I just got the HSU yesterday so I basically placed it where the Athena was, which isn't the ideal place. The measurements you see are including the mains with no BFD (too excited and lazy to disconnect mains). As you can see in the layout, the sub is in between the TV and the front right speaker which is closest to the opening of the room. I'll move it to the front left corner where the media stand is and lug my PC downstairs to run REW to set up the BFD once I get enough initiative. The graph shows the HSU VTF-2 MK3 raw in my room and the pink line is running the HSU and the Athena placed nearfield behind the main couch crossed over at 80Hz on the Pio 1015 and with the low pass filter set at 60Hz on the Athena to accentuate the slam. As the graph indicates I got what I was looking for. A sub that can reach down to the 20Hz level!!! It also shows that it's probably best to run it by itself without the Athena.

So what does that translate to in real life terms compared to the BFD'd Athena? The changes are subtle yet prounounced. I guess it's a case of diminishing returns. If I went from my Craptachi to the HSU, then I'll be hyperbolizing with the best of them singing the virtues of house crumbling bass. Don't misinterpret my words. The HSU is a great sub and has met all my goals being able to reproduce sound into the teens and have that physical effect during the scenes like Darla, U571,and Master and Commander. The upgrade from the Athena wasn't orgasmically huge, but it's there. The car door slams in Transporter 2 are "fuller", the music score more dynamic and detailed (the bass has more texture is the way I would describe it), it's not boomy and seems to have lots in reserve. I think if someone has an Athena P4000 or a Bic H100 have a pretty good starting level. With the huge (to a cheapskate) increase in price there is an improvement but it's not a 1:1 relationship. Was it worth it for me? Yes - it achieved what I wanted. I just wished I started with the HSU VTF-2 MK3 and saved all the time researching, reviewing and searching for the best bang for my buck. So if you're starting out, I would plan out what your ideal setup would be and work towards that. Save your money and buy the equipment that will give you what you want. Don't settle for good enough, settle for exactly what you want and you'll save money and time in the long run.
This is what I've wanted in my sub and I'm glad I've found it - 20Hz performance, excellent service and advice from the vendor, peace of mind (7 years on the woofer and 2 years on the amp), a sub that can actually shake the house and ripple through your body. Movies I've watched numerous times are somewhat different. I feel that I'm drawn more into the movies as it visual, audio, and now a physical experience with those low bass scenes going through the floor and sofa and it seems like a different more enjoyable movie - well worth it. Hopefully this gives others a realistic impression on this sub and what it's like to upgrade from various levels of cheap subs. I think this is probably the best value out there along with the BIC H100. If I was starting out and wanted the best performance but could only spend $250, I'd get the H100 (I haven't heard it, but based on the feedback and the one chart I've seen of it comparing it to a A3-500) and the next step up would be this one. What above this I'm not concerned about as this is all the performance I wanted in the first place. Famous last words......(I don't need a VTF-3 HO....I don't need a VTF-3 HO......)

[rockemsockem]

That's actually a little dissapointing. I would have a expected a huge difference between the Athena and new HSU sub.

When I went from an Athena sub to the SVS PB10, it was like a man playing with a little boy.

Hopefully once you get the HSU eq'd, the difference will be much more apparent.

[bittermelon]

I'm not disappointed, don't get me wrong. I'm trying to portray a realistic impression what's it like compared to the sub I had before. The forums are full of hyperbole and emotional laden impressions. What I'm trying to demonstrate is what the upgrade will be for someone jumping from a decent budget subwoofer (Athena P4000 or H100) to the next step. The sound is more visceral, physical and detailed in music for me. I don't want to jump up and down extolling the unreal teeth shattering bass blah blah blah that usually out there.
If you only listened to a 128kps mp3 out of your car stereo or ipod, you'd think that's a pretty decent sound I'm getting compared to FM and you'd be happy (Athena P4000). Once you listen to the CD or SACD on a half decent setup (I'll use my config as that's all I can compare to (Pioneer 1015/Monitor 11's), you'll begin to notice the dynamic range, detail, nuances in the sound and impact that was missing (HSU). Is going from mp3 to the stereo setup a dramatic change - yes, if you're into this kind of stuff it is. Is it a 1:1 ratio to expense to gain - no, neither was going from my Acoustech speakers to the Paradigm Monitor 11's, but I sure do enjoy them more. I notice things I haven't before and I truly enjoy the experience more and that makes it worth it.
I wanted to stop the cycle of constant upgrading and I'm sure others are too. My main point is if you want that low extension, detailed sound, physical sound, don't take half measure like I did and just save up for this level. I (and my poor suffering wife) wished I did and I wouldn't have wasted all the time and money. Please, don't anyone give me "it's the journey of learning blah blah blah" I just wanted to be at this level from the beginning and hopefully my experience can save others from the constant upgrading.
About six months ago, I wanted more than what the Athena was giving me, knowing that I'll probably have to spend to get it and the gains from a purely financial perspective won't be justified. I was saving up for the SVS PB10, but I felt this was a better value. I think I would have been happy with either one and would have given me the same type of results I was looking for, but the HSU seem to me to be a better value. It can go into the teens, it has added more detail and texture to the bass in music, it has the physical impact - Everything I wanted in a sub. I'm enjoying the experience it gives me with movies an music. I'm trying to portray an objective point of view of what it's like to go to this level of sub. I think a lot of us here are a little OCD with our hobby and want to extract out every detail and nuance of this sub vs this sub, which is good so there's a sharing of information, but sometimes it's hard to separate out fact and objective observation vs exaggeration. HSU and SVS will take you to the enthusiast level of performance at a very good price point. For cheapskates like me, it just took a while to realize. Enjoy your SVS!

[Echomalinois]

I just sold my H100, and ordered the VTF2-MK3. I will put in my thoughts when I get it next week. I am really looking forward to it!

[rockemsockem]

I'm glad you're happy. You sound like a man with good sense.

BTW, I have since upgraded to the 22-31Pci! :-)

[bittermelon]

Echomalinois

You probably won't see as dramatic of a change as I did. Your Bic H100 is a pretty good sub, but the HSU will excel in the <20 Hz stuff. I've done some more fiddling around. I moved the sub to the front left corner and finished hooking up the 7.1 setup. I finally lugged the PC downstairs and ran a whole bunch of scenarios. The most flat response is with the HSU by itself in the front left corner. Here's a graph with the raw response vs BFD'd response. I'm playing around with a couple of house curves as I prefer the accentuated low end in movies, but I haven't found one yet that I like. [IMG]HSU VTF-2 MKIII raw vs. BFD[/IMG]

rockemsockem

That must be one awesome sub. I can only imagine the bass that thing can generate. It seems like we're in a golden age for subs all of a sudden.

[Echomalinois]

Bittermelon, I am glad that you are enjoying your new sub, but I feel that you are understating the difference between the Athena and HSU. As for My H100 compared to the HSU, there is no contest. The H100 can not touch the HSU in terms of sound quality, output, and extension. Not that the H100 is a bad sub, it can and will vibrate the walls and seating area, but the HSU moves the room. Plus the quality sound that the HSU produces is amazing to me. Just my opinion.

[mlandau]

With a wood floor, should I really have a piece of carpet under the MK3?

[Echomalinois]

From what I have heard and read, you should have a throw rug or something under the sub.

[bfdtv]

With a wood floor, should I really have a piece of carpet under the MK3?

With any sub and wooden floors, it's a good idea to have a rug underneath.

The alternative is a Great GRAMMA (the larger version of the SubDude) that has received rave reviews on this forum.

[bittermelon]

Echomalinois

I'm glad you're finding the HSU a big improvement. From what I've read (haven't demo'd it) the H100 seems to be one of the best performance/price sub out there, so I would assume you wouldn't see as dramatic of a difference as I did from the Athena, since your H100 is higher up in performance.
I agree with you that the HSU VTF-2 MK3 is another level of sub compared to the Athena. I'm trying to articulate what it means to someone who was at the same stage, that starting out at this level is probably would eliminate most of the upgrading I went through. The constant upgrading (the total $$$ spent) you're better off buying a HSU VTF or SVS PB10 in the first place.
It is more detailed, has more physical impact, more extension, and can literally shake the entire room with sound especially with the Darla (chapter 25) in Finding Nemo. This is the type of performance I was looking for.

You should put in that demo disc that came with your sub and literally feel that organ ripple through the room and your body once you've calibrated and broken in your sub.

[bittermelon]

OK, I have to eat crow.

Echomalinois

You were right, I was understating the difference between the two subs. I initially calibrated the sub with DVE and knowing that the signal is incorrect, I ran it 8 db "hot", not knowing how off it is. I have since read that it's off by about 10 db. So I used the subwoofer tone in the receiver, it showed that the DVE tone is off by 13 dB. Once I calibrated it to the receiver subwoofer tone and had it set at the real 75 dB matched to the rest of the speakers, what a difference.

I watched Daredevil DTS last night, and the HSU VTF-2 MK3 delivered a truly physical and audio impact I never had with the Athena. The bar room fight scene must be full of <20Hz impacts as the slam throughout the scene was a totally new experience. This was at my normal listening level, not cranked up (-22 on the dial). The physical effects that this thing can generate was missed initially because I didn't have it calibrated properly, so the low frequency effects were minimized. Now that I have it set up properly (I hope), it's truly a monster. (woke the kids up) The last part of the movie where DD fights Kingpin has these sonic punches as they slug it out. I couldn't wipe off the grin off my face and I was totally immersed in the movie. I set it up to watch the bar room fight scene and ended up watching the whole thing.
So without going overboard with the hyperbole, this sub is truly in a different league altogether. Instead of the mp3 - SACD comparison, I would have to say it's AM radio to DVD-Audio jump in sonic impact and clarity. (Mind you, I have it set flat with a BFD). This has been for me the biggest jump in performance vs the receiver upgrade or the main speaker upgrade.

Now that it's nicely broken in, I'll report back on the max sPL I can get out of this thing. I have it set at max extension right now.

[cyberbri]

Originally Posted by bittermelon

Echomalinois

You probably won't see as dramatic of a change as I did. Your Bic H100 is a pretty good sub, but the HSU will excel in the <20 Hz stuff. I've done some more fiddling around. I moved the sub to the front left corner and finished hooking up the 7.1 setup. I finally lugged the PC downstairs and ran a whole bunch of scenarios. The most flat response is with the HSU by itself in the front left corner. Here's a graph with the raw response vs BFD'd response. I'm playing around with a couple of house curves as I prefer the accentuated low end in movies, but I haven't found one yet that I like. [IMG]HSU VTF-2 MKIII raw vs. BFD[/IMG]

Is that before/after image final, or are you still working on your BFD filters? I ask because the pink line still shows a 10dB+ swing.




I have a VTF-3 MK2, purchased last summer. I used to own an H100 (they're probably in the archives by now, but I did a few major threads on the sub).
I had the H100 at one residence, and when we moved I upgraded immediately. I didn't get a chance to hear the H100 in the same room until I was demoing it for the guy who bought it. The H100 is a great budget sub and performs admirably for small rooms. But when I put it in my new room, on top of the VTF-3 MK2, the difference was immediately clear. And that was before I added bass traps and then a BFD (eq'd to +/- 1.5dB (3dB swing), with a rise below 30 Hz or so).

But when I played the H100, stacked on top of the VTF-3, there was bass, but it didn't fill the room nearly as well, even calibrated to the same level as the HSU (I calibrated before he came over). There also wasn't the detail in the bass I had grown used to with the HSU.

I had used the H100 in my previous residence in the front right corner, but for a while I had it directly behind the couch. I concur about the effects of near-field placement. You don't need bass shakers with a sub directly behind your couch. If I still had the H100 in my larger room now (14' wide by about 22' deep, almost 9' ceilings), I'd definitely need to have it behind the couch. Unfortunately the VTF-3 is too big to put there - my better half has already compromised more than most wives by allowing me bass traps and 1st ref point absorber panels.

I agree with what you have posted about "articulation" and "texture." Bass traps took away a lot of ringing and boominess/muddiness created by the room (that you don't notice until you add the bass traps and hear the bass with all that nastiness missing) and left clean output. And when I added the BFD and flattened out the response I was totally amazed again. Of course it's a great sub without all that, but to really get the performance these subs are capable of you need bass traps at the least, plus an eq (unless the response is very flat to begin with).

[bittermelon]

[quote=cyberbri]Is that before/after image final, or are you still working on your BFD filters? I ask because the pink line still shows a 10dB+ swing.

That was the first run with REQ. I'm still playing with the BFD filters, but it's going to be a while before I have another chance to lug the PC downstairs and spend half a day moving subs and remeasuring. It's not perfect, but it surely is better than without the BFD. Just never enough time to fiddle.....

I would like to do absorption panels and bass traps but I already shortcutted the room by not doing the baseboards and door trim. The excuse I used was to hide the speaker wires and since they have changed a few times already, the baseboards and trim will have to wait until it's finalized In order to finalize it, I have to lug the PC downstairs and redo the measurements and set up the BFD. These circular arguments can help, but she sees right through it.

I agree that bass traps will definitely help, but I have to wait for the right conditions before I broach that subject. I'm still amazed at the difference the way it is right now without bass traps compared to the Athena. This surely is a great time for subwoofers. The performance you can get now for the price, it's amazing how ID companies like HSU and SVS are changing peoples perspective.
I agree with that other post talking about the poor experience at the movie theatre. What you can set up at home can sometimes surpass that experience at the theatre.

[cyberbri]

I have a computer in the room, but I've never run REW. I probably should. Probably does a better job of capturing sweeps.

Basically I put the meter on a tripod on the couch set to C/Fast, run the 100-20Hz LFE sweep on Avia, and tweak the filters till I get it smooth (keeping track in an Excel file so I know which filter is what).

I've done it about 3 times now. The first time I was just getting used to it. Then I re-ran it because I was feeling OCD, but then I didn't like sound of the results (some slight stress on loud passages), so I re-ran it recently. Now it's just as flat, maybe flatter, but no audible stress.


I got my bass traps from GIK Acoustics. They have some cool "Tri Traps" that are very unassuming and would fit into corners very nicely. I went with some different panels. They are very affordable and provide very good results. I may try DIYing some more absorption to hide behind the current panels in the front corners this summer or something.

[bittermelon]

Cyberbri

You should definitely run REW. It not only runs whatever sweep you designate (I run a 10Hz to 200Hz log sweep), it analyzes the data and provides you with the exact filter setting for the BFD to achieve your target response. Load a house curve and it will tell you what filter settings to set for it. You can have set through a midi box to download the setting from REW right into the BFD if you want to automate the whole process. Here's the link:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Thanks for the tip about GIK acoustics. Which panels did you go with? Any information on DIY panels I would appreciate it.

[cyberbri]

Thanks. I think I have the cables, probably. I just haven't gotten around to it. Haha.


I went with 4 244 panels for bass traps, with the thinner 224 panels for the sides. I originally got the 244s because I wanted to stack them in the front corners. But that didn't go over too well with my better half, so they are doubled-up on the floor in the front corners. Check out my gallery to see how it turned out.

If I had it to do over, I would have got 2 of the Tri Traps, one for each corner. Much smaller, stands out less, and the same/more bass absorption.

For DIY, there's lots of stuff out there. Basically you need the right kind of fiberglass and some kind of frame, whether you do a round/triangular/square pillar, or panels. Doesn't seem too hard. Depending on the packaging, you might even be able to put the insulation in the corners as-is and throw a sheet or blanket or something over it.

[tdamocles]

Originally Posted by bittermelon

Echomalinois

You probably won't see as dramatic of a change as I did. Your Bic H100 is a pretty good sub, but the HSU will excel in the <20 Hz stuff. I've done some more fiddling around. I moved the sub to the front left corner and finished hooking up the 7.1 setup. I finally lugged the PC downstairs and ran a whole bunch of scenarios. The most flat response is with the HSU by itself in the front left corner. Here's a graph with the raw response vs BFD'd response. I'm playing around with a couple of house curves as I prefer the accentuated low end in movies, but I haven't found one yet that I like. [IMG]HSU VTF-2 MKIII raw vs. BFD[/IMG]

rockemsockem

That must be one awesome sub. I can only imagine the bass that thing can generate. It seems like we're in a golden age for subs all of a sudden.

I think you can flatten that response a little more with the BFD. There is still a little peak around 35hz-63hz (looks like a 10db rise). I've noticed that peaks like what you have cause a little boominess. What I've noticed when using the BFD is when you flatten the response it takes some of the oomph out of the overall bass experience. Try taking out that 10db rise and you'll see what I mean. I don't calibrate the mains level even with my sub when BFD'ing. I run about 10-12db hotter than the mains and it brings back the bass experience without the boominess.

Do me a favor and take a reading down to 15hz. That graph looks odd at 16hz...? Are you using a RS meter and the correct calibration file for it?

[bittermelon]

Originally Posted by tdamocles

I think you can flatten that response a little more with the BFD. There is still a little peak around 35hz-63hz (looks like a 10db rise). I've noticed that peaks like what you have cause a little boominess. What I've noticed when using the BFD is when you flatten the response it takes some of the oomph out of the overall bass experience. Try taking out that 10db rise and you'll see what I mean. I don't calibrate the mains level even with my sub when BFD'ing. I run about 10-12db hotter than the mains and it brings back the bass experience without the boominess.

Do me a favor and take a reading down to 15hz. That graph looks odd at 16hz...? Are you using a RS meter and the correct calibration file for it?

I reviewed the settings on the BFD this morning and I had some set incorrectly. I'll post a new graph. Yes, I'm using the digital meter and the correct cal file for it in REW and the excel graph from hometheatreshack for the Digital RS. I've consistently got a higher value (corrected as well in the Excel sheet) at 16 Hz vs 18 and 20. Today's remeasurement were 85,75,77 (raw- I haven't put these into the excel sheet yet) respectively.

I'll have to download a 15 Hz tone and add it to the spreadsheet.

I'll post the graph later today. It's blended with the mains and it's a little bit better but not where I would like it. One should not enter values into the BFD manually at 4AM!

[tdamocles]

Are the graphs shown from an excel sheet that was created by you? Can you save the graph through REW?

[cyberbri]

Yes, you can export REW graphs.

Here's my first experience with REW and measuring my VTF-3.2:
http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2533

[epsilon72]

Anyone have any pics of their VTF 2.3 in their setup?

[tdamocles]

Originally Posted by cyberbri

Yes, you can export REW graphs.

Here's my first experience with REW and measuring my VTF-3.2:
http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2533

Very nice extension in 20hz mode.