Industry Insiders Q&A MASTER THREAD [separate thread for Xbox/Add On & PS3]

[kornesque]

Well, it appears the update will include support for h.264. THANK THE HEAVENS! The page listing the features says up to 15mbps...is this the average bitrate?

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/...07/0408-im.htm

[bigblueit]

Amir,

You may not be aware of this as its a PAL issue but I can tell you there are literally thousands of PAL 360 users that have had issues with 'tearing' over VGA ever since the fall update.. Horizontal break up of frames is the best way to discribe it when panning horizontally and made games unplayable (literally), particularly Dead Rising. This issue is something MS introduced as there was no problem with tearing over VGA before the fall update. This did not affect NTSC systems for some reason which is why it hasnt received as much publicity.

The subsequent 1080p 'fix' reduced the issue to making games more barable but still having the problem.

Can you confirm whether these issues have been addressed in the spring update as part of the larger VGA fixes?

Thanks

[TomsHT]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

And with both Sony and Disney indicating plans for 80% of upcoming releases to be BD-50, I won't accept your argument that BD-25 will be the norm and that Blu-ray bears no capacity advantage.

Out of all the Blu-ray disc's released and announced for release with specs regarding disc size, only about 20% are actually on BD50 discs while 80% of these are on BD25s.

The above is including titles that Sony and Disney have announced to be released on BD50s.

If 80% of all titles are on BD25, how could that not be considered the norm?

And at what point will this be reveresed that 80% will actually be on BD50 discs?

[tiong_fi]

Amir,

Does the "Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles." include support for XViD or DivX?

[swanlee]

Amir

Does the added support for MPEG-4 and some AVI apply when streaming to the 360 from Windows Media 11? Won't there need to be a Windows Media patch to allow this?
If not can we request this to happen soon, more codecs for streamin through WM 11 would be great.

[zoro]

Originally Posted by tiong_fi

Amir,

Does the "Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles." include support for XViD or DivX?

same question here?

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by John Haghighi

So is what is the difference between WMA 10 Pro and WMA 9 Pro, and which does the 360 and AV receivers support, both? Is 10 backwards compatible with 9 decoders?

WMA Pro 10 is a backwards compatible enhancement to WMA Pro 9. Bitrates at 128 Kbps and above are identically decoded, although there are quality improvements in the new implementation. The rates below 128 Kbps are new, and offer much improved compression efficiency, but aren't relevant to home theater applications.

I included some more details on the new codec in this article:

http://www.streamingmedia.com/articl...510&page=2&c=4

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

20GB provides a lot more flexibility than does another codec. Worst case the hit for Blu-ray not having mandatory TrueHD support is the need to include an additional 640kb/sec DD track alongside the TrueHD track, which by my calculation would be an extra 824MB for a three hour movie, or less than 5% of the additional capacity afforded by Blu-ray.

But is that really the apropos comparison?

With a TrueHD HD DVD disc, the content author knows that the user can get all the bits of audio they can take. With a BD TrueHD + AC-3 disc, the contnent author will know that many customers with expensive players would just hear the AC-3. That's why we see AC-3 + PCM discs, right?

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

But is that really the apropos comparison?

With a TrueHD HD DVD disc, the content author knows that the user can get all the bits of audio they can take. With a BD TrueHD + AC-3 disc, the contnent author will know that many customers with expensive players would just hear the AC-3. That's why we see AC-3 + PCM discs, right?

I note that the HD DVD spec only mandates TrueHD 2.0. What does that mean exactly? There are several options I can think of:

1) The track simply doesn't work on bare bones HD DVD machines (none of which exist at the moment).
2) Only two channels of the TrueHD track are decoded.
3) All TrueHD channels are decoded, but the sound is remixed to 2 channel audio.
4) The DVD Forum will be changing the spec to require TrueHD 5.1 support (which wouldn't affect existing players).

Which of the above is true, if any? Options 3 (and 4) would be fine, but options 1 and 2 would be problems.

(I believe there were some comments on this before, but I'm not sure exactly where.)

[RobertR1]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Just because BD gives manufacturers and consumers the ability to choose the featureset they desire doesn't in any way suggest it is a less "forward looking" format.

This is great line Talk and one that people should also remember when making 360 vs PS3 comparisons

[Dr_Kn0w]

Originally Posted by amirm

I am sorry but I can't comment on the schedule that way. Because if I said it, and something changed, then I get even more unhappy posts .

Thanks for the info Amir. If I read into this further, I can gather that the HD DVD update is "supposed" to come BEFORE the May 7 Spring Dashboard update based on your response. Let me explain:

No one will be upset if you say the HD DVD update is coming AFTER the Spring Dashboard update, and it ends up coming early. BUT, people will be upset if you say it's coming before the Spring Dashboard update and it ends up coming after.

So I can safely assume the HD DVD update should (key word is "should") arrive before the May 7 Spring Dashboard update.

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by TomsHT

Out of all the Blu-ray disc's released and announced for release with specs regarding disc size, only about 20% are actually on BD50 discs while 80% of these are on BD25s.

Of course - the first BD50 disc didn't show up until many months after format release. Yet it's much closer to 50/50 for discs released in 2007, and both Disney and SPE have announced an intent to primarily use BD50 (Disney even has two "BD75" releases upcoming). The trend is unmistakable, and invalidates any claim that BD50 is commercially unworkable.

- Talk

[squidboy]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

Disney even has two "BD75" releases upcoming

Did I miss something? Are there now 3-layer BDs?

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

With a TrueHD HD DVD disc, the content author knows that the user can get all the bits of audio they can take. With a BD TrueHD + AC-3 disc, the contnent author will know that many customers with expensive players would just hear the AC-3.

I don't understand your point. With TrueHD + AC3 (DD) a Blu-ray author knows that all current and future players will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1. An HD DVD author using only TrueHD knows that players available today will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1, though future players might only be able to render TrueHD 2.0. Further, over half of HD DVD owners won't have access to the lossless stream (since the Xbox 360 add-on can't output lossless), while almost all Blu-ray owners do have access to the lossless stream (since the PS3 can decode it or hand it off to an AVR for decoding).

That's why we see AC-3 + PCM discs, right?

No, we see AC-3 + PCM discs because for most titles Blu-ray has ample capacity to skip the extra variable of TrueHD and go to the simplest lossless format, PCM (and save a few cents in royalties at the same time). As multi-language support or other capacity demands enter the picture Blu-ray can move to AC-3 + TrueHD (or DTS-HD MA by itself) with very little impact on either disc capacity/bandwidth nor consumer audio experience.

- Talk

[John Williams]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

(Disney even has two "BD75" releases upcoming).
- Talk

OK, I'll bite -- is the "BD75" you are referring to a BD50 + BD25 (dual-BD) package, or...something else?



-John

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by squidboy

Did I miss something? Are there now 3-layer BDs?

No, they're packaging a BD50 + a BD25.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

Is BD-9 an official Blu-ray format? I'm getting mixed info on this. I know 3X HD DVD is an official HD DVD format.

(I think the above will be very important for consumers.)

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy

Is BD-9 an official Blu-ray format? I'm getting mixed info on this. I know 3X HD DVD is an official HD DVD format.

Yes, it's an official format.

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by tiong_fi

Amir,

Does the "Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles." include support for XViD or DivX?

The Divx/Xvid codec is MPEG-4 Part 2, so yes. But what a "Divx file" means isn't standardized - lots of different audio codecs, wrappers, etcetera. This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi.

[swanlee]

"This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi."

That sucks as the vast majority of internet video is .avi format. Also an idea on streaming or disc support for plain old mpeg2 .mpg files?

I have some TS HD streams from my cable box in .mpg format that I'd like to stream to the 360 and do not want to convert them to .wmv as in trying to do this has been a disaster.

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

I don't understand your point. With TrueHD + AC3 (DD) a Blu-ray author knows that all current and future players will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1. An HD DVD author using only TrueHD knows that players available today will have access to, at a minimum, DD 5.1, and if their equipment supports it, TrueHD 5.1, though future players might only be able to render TrueHD 2.0. Further, over half of HD DVD owners won't have access to the lossless stream (since the Xbox 360 add-on can't output lossless), while almost all Blu-ray owners do have access to the lossless stream (since the PS3 can decode it or hand it off to an AVR for decoding).

But just DD 5.1, right? With HD DVD, any user gets to start with TrueHD on the disc, so even if the audio output is getting downsampled to DTS 1.5 Mbps or whatever, a TrueHD track will sound better than the AC-3 track off any of the many BD players that don't support TrueHD.

[Cova]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

The Divx/Xvid codec is MPEG-4 Part 2, so yes. But what a "Divx file" means isn't standardized - lots of different audio codecs, wrappers, etcetera. This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi.

Ok - the Xbox page over at http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/...07/0408-im.htm gives us the new video codecs - but it raises some questions.

# H.264 video support: Up to 15 Mbps, Baseline, Main, and High (up to level 4.1) Profiles with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles.
# Added MPEG-4 Part 2 video support: Up to 8 Mbps, Simple Profile with 2 channel AAC LC and Main Profiles.

First off, there is no mention at all of any container formats.

Second - what about mixing those video codec's with other audio codecs that are already supported on a 360. eg. H.264 video + DD 5.1 / AC3 audio?

[Talkstr8t]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

But just DD 5.1, right?

No, with the PS3 supporting in-player TrueHD decoding as well as exporting it via HDMI, most Blu-ray owners will have access to lossless sound.

My point is that what Blu-ray takes away by not mandating TrueHD (824MB to support a DD 5.1 track alongside a TrueHD track on a three-hour movie) it gives back many times over with an extra 20GB and 18Mb/s of bandwidth. And the further marketplace reality is that the majority of HD DVD owners don't have players capable of outputting the lossless track (the Xbox 360 add-on), while the majority of Blu-ray owners do (the PS3). On what point do you and I disagree?

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by Cova

Ok - the Xbox page over at http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/...07/0408-im.htm gives us the new video codecs - but it raises some questions.

First off, there is no mention at all of any container formats.

I've asked if they can provide dome clarification on that

Second - what about mixing those video codec's with other audio codecs that are already supported on a 360. eg. H.264 video + DD 5.1 / AC3 audio?

What's been announced is what's been announced. H.264 + AC-3 isn't really a "standard" - I'm not even sure what spec would support both. Transport streams?

[Frode]

Transport streams do support H.264/AVC along with AC3 yes. It's fast becoming one of the major standards for DVB in Europe in particular. Do you know if there's any plans to support transport streams containing that - say for recorded content? 15Mbps max peak is also not going to cut it for those kind of streams, unless that quote above is average bitrate?

[Nox]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

The Divx/Xvid codec is MPEG-4 Part 2, so yes. But what a "Divx file" means isn't standardized - lots of different audio codecs, wrappers, etcetera. This update will support MPEG-4 Part 2 data in a .mp4 file, but not in a .avi.

I don't know if it's even possible, but is there a way the 360 could be updated to support user based codecs in the future?

Users could add them to the 360 on their own if needed through a USB thumbdrive by selecting it and pressing an "add codec" button or something in the dashboard (just a crazy thought). In that case, Microsoft wouldn't have to officially 'support' every codec. The user base would supply their own. A "Remove codec" button could be used to delete it. Kind of like Windows very own "Add/remove Programs" in the control panel.

I hope Microsoft understands how close they are to ruling the entertainment room with the 360. If it could play all types of files like a PC the 360 would be the ultimate multimedia device.

[RichB]

I know this has been brought up before, but it just does not make sense to me that HD DVD cannot do resume play:

1) The player knows the position that I was playing because I can go back into the menu and return to the same spot.

2) I can start at the beginning and drag the time slider (at least in PowerDVD) to the correct position.

So a macro can be made to do it for me, right?

From a user standpoint, this is a major omission. Is it not in the player’s capabilities to provide this feature even if the disk does not?

- Rich

[swanlee]

Yep,

Note to AMIR if you guys ever support streaming of divx or xvid HD in .avi format from the pc to your Xbox 360 natively with no other conversion you have won the home media hub race.
The 360 would then become the ultimate media streaming appliance.

You guys are so close .avi support for divx and xvid and .mpg are all you need for the win.

[Cova]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

What's been announced is what's been announced. H.264 + AC-3 isn't really a "standard" - I'm not even sure what spec would support both. Transport streams?

Yes - as has already been posted h.264+AC3 in a transport-stream is fast becoming the standard for HD broadcast over in europe. It's also just starting to show up in north america - Dish network is broadcasting h.264+AC3 transport streams.

Also - matroska supports pretty much any combination of video and audio you want to put into a single file. I do a lot of recording of MPEG2+AC3 transport streams over firewire from my DCT-6200. To save HD space I transcode the video to h.264 and usually just mux that + the original audio into a mkv file.

The ASF/WMV container I believe should also technically be able to have h.264 + AC3 in it. I know I've muxed VC1 + AC3 into a WMV before. Its far from standard, but if the 360 will demux it and send the audio+video off to their proper codecs for display, then I'd be happy

[swanlee]

I just want to stream HD divx and xvid .avi files and HD .mpg and .ts files using windows media player 11 to the Xbox 360. Then having to spend days converting things to .wmv with mixed results will be over