My first experience with Denon - mixed reactions

[Napoleon D]

I went out and bought a Denon AVR-687 this week to replace the old receiver. I have to say overall that the Denon has some advantages and disadvantages.

I went through the auto-calibration, which was actually pretty accurate on first try. I made a few tweaks to fine tune it to DVE and to my own liking.

My major gripe with this one, and i'm not sure if this is just Denon receivers overall, but there is a real lack of "punch" with bass. The advantage is that it has a fairly smooth and balanced sound - the highs seem very balanced with the lows. The criticism i have with this is that you're not "feeling" a lot of the soundtrack. I calibrate the subwoofer fairly even with other channels, but when doing this I typically feel a lot of the sub interacting with the soundtrack.

My previous entry level JVC, when calibrated to the same levels carries a much meatier bass to it, and creates a soundtrack that you can "feel" more. While I always set crossover at 80db, you felt much more bass with the JVC further up the frequency spectrum. This was without bass EQ adjustment, it was just how the receiver naturally sounded.

I wanted to trade up the JVC because the sound was a little tinny for lack of a better word. While there was a great deal of subwoofer/bass interaction with an even calibration, there was a slight push of both highs and lows.

I was deciding between an Onkyo receiver and this moderately-priced Denon. The salesman at Circuit City said the Onkyo gives a real push of bass, but at the same time pushes high's as well. He said the Denon was more ideal for HT since it had a better balance of frequency, no push of one frequency in particular. The frequencey sweep on DVE reflected this. While the response was not 100% flat (my room has some treatment), it was flatter than what my old receiver produced.

I still have to say that while the Denon has a more natural sound overall (not tinny like the JVC), there is a very conservative feel to it. The bass is really kept on a leash. While I calibrate the sub to be 3 db's hotter than the others (i calibrate 13 db's higher using DVE), you really are not feeling a lot of bass to the soundtrack with an exception of the really low effects such as explosions.

While I do like the realistic sound, the conservative bass is a real hamstring to me. I haven't made up my mind, i'm considering either exchanging the Denon for an Onkyo SR604, or going back with my JVC. I want to give the Denon a chance, as i may need to get used to it. But perhaps I might be one who appreciates that slight push of bass that other receivers offer.

Has anyone had this experience with Denon, or at least with this 687 model? I'm going to give it a chance for a while. I did a pretty thorough setup, and went through most of the settings, so I don't believe I missed anything with the setup.

[ross]

Sounds like you have not calibrated the subwoofer along with the rest of the system, is that correct? I have a Denon myself and have plenty of punch in the base, but I calibrate it using a test record and a sound level meter rather than the built in software (never wanted to buy the necessary microphone from Denon, I guess).

I'd be curious to hear from others who may have used the built in calibration versus doing it the old fashioned way.

Incidentally, just to be open, I don't believe that receivers have characteristic sounds, rather it a matter of speakers and room acoustics. Nevertheless, if you're convinced there is a difference, I'd look to making certain that calibrating the sub is done as well as the other channels and even adjusting at the end to suit your ear rather than the measurements. (I think that the jury is still out on the audibility or equalizing - comments?)

Rgrds-Ross

[louthewiz]

I had a Denon as well and I liked it and hated it as well ,I auditioned onkyo and the bass was too boomy and not laid back and the mids just was bad, so then I ran into my Yamaha htr5790 That has tons of power better bass and loads of features that I really love ,so maybe you should return the denon and give Yamaha a try you might like what you hear.

[Napoleon D]

I did the automatic calibration and a manual one. I settled on combining both. The sub I'm 90% sure is calibrated to the right level. I even tried boosting it a few db's as a test and all it does is make the lowest of tones tones stronger. You really don't feel much of the subwoofer interacting too much with anything above 40 Hz. Sure, you hear the presence above that, but I really find myself wanting something heartier.

It is a very balanced sound overall, but i find myself just craving a meatier bass. Sure, you can boost the "bass" control but that doesn't add too much for a receiver that naturally doesn't push that at all.

An example - in Matrix Reloaded, during the "Burly Brawl," as Neo twirls 180-degrees in the air and kicks one of the Smiths, I'm used to hearing a fairly rich yet smooth bass as he does this. Part of it's still there now, but it's not pulsing at all, or should i say I only feel a little of it. I guess the point is, with this receiver, you can calibrate bass to the same SPL as my old JVC, but not feel nearly as much presence.

I've gone through and turned off enhancements and what not, so there shouldn't something hidden that i've missed. I'm still going to keep playing around with this one.

[soundlovr]

Do you:

-> have the subwoofer set to "LFE+Main"

and

-> have all your speakers set to small?

My Denon can produce enough bass to shake the whole floor of the building I live in.

[jkv]

I calibrated my Denon the "old fashioned way"; plenty of bass 'punch' in my system.

[Napoleon D]

Soundlovr - I set it to "normal" as opposed to "LFE + main." All my speakers are set to "small." The "LFE + main" setting is for large speakers only i thought. Meaning, the speakers will play the lower freq. if speakers are set to large, but with this setting active, the sub plays them as well. The manual basically says this only applies to "large" speakers, as mine are all set to "small."

I just tried this setting. It does sound better, but is it now feeding my main speakers the full range? Since all my speakers are set to small, what is this setting doing?

[soundlovr]

Basically, you're right... the settings become redundant in your situation; however, when something isn't working, it's best to change all the settings in favour of the outcome that you want.

You don't want to feed any speaker full-range. You only want to feed them what they can handle and faithfully reproduce. The sub will handle the bass far better than your mains and that will leave your amp with more headroom for the mains since low-frequency sounds are the hardest for an amp to reproduce.

It also occurred to me to check that you didn't set the subwoofer's crossover to a low value in the advanced speaker crossover setup. I've known people to do that without realizing that the subwoofer value is a highpass, not a lowpass filter. If you're crossing over at 80Hz on your speakers, try a subwoofer crossover at 100Hz.

[Napoleon D]

There have been infinite posts about this feature. A lot of folks are confused on this. This can all be explained by insufficient explanation in the manuals.

I have all speakers set small, but the "+ main" seems to add some bass to the soundtrack. Whatever the case the soundtrack is a little fuller with this activated. The Denon manuals are very poorly written and really don't explain things well. Since my speakers are set to small, this should eliminate the "+ main" choice. I would have thought that with this setting activated, it bypasses the crossover I set for the main speakers, and gives just those 2 speakers a full range.

This does not make sense though. This setting works for the subwoofer in allowing it to play the bass that other "large" speakers are playing, if in fact your speakers are set to large. I'm not talking LFE, i'm talking bass management. So this effects what the subwoofer plays, not the reverse. If your speakers are set to small, this should have NO effect on what the other speakers play.

To throw another guess out there - what if this setting is a default which always allows the subwoofer to handle bass, whatever size your speakers are. In other words, if you wanted to set a crossover of 80db and allow the sub to handle the low freqs., then you would have to set "+ main" in the menu. In the manual it obscurely says at the bottom of one of the pages, that if you want the subwoofer to handle bass (independent from LFE) then you must activate the "+ main" feature.

[Sokoloff]

Are you sure the (cabling) polarity is set right on all your speakers? If that's not right, the individual speaker levels will be right during calibration, but the interaction among them while watching a movie won't be.

DVE has test tones for this as well. (Or Avia; I forget which.)

[sivadselim]

Originally Posted by soundlovr

Do you:

-> have the subwoofer set to "LFE+Main"

and

-> have all your speakers set to small?

You can't set all the speakers to SMALL and use the "LFE+Main" function.

The "LFE+Main" setting only works, as you say, Napoleon, when the front speakers are set to LARGE. It sends redundant bass info below your crossover setting to the subwoofer, as well as to the LARGE mains. With it set to "LFE" only and LARGE fronts, the subwoofer will only get the LFE channel and any redirected bass from any other speakers that might be set to SMALL, such as your center or surrounds.

With all speakers set to SMALL, the "LFE+Main" setting doesn't do anything as all the redirected bass (and the LFE channel, of course) is being sent to the subwoofer, anyway.

[Napoleon D]

I had a Denon as well and I liked it and hated it as well ,I auditioned onkyo and the bass was too boomy and not laid back and the mids just was bad, so then I ran into my Yamaha htr5790 That has tons of power better bass and loads of features that I really love ,so maybe you should return the denon and give Yamaha a try you might like what you hear.

This echoes a lot of my thoughts.

This receiver is a true example of how equipment ha great effect on the sound. My old JVC was so tinny-sounding it began to hurt my ears. The Denon corrects a lot of this, then again, I think a lot of newer receivers would correct this as my last machine was bought 8 years ago.

I love the smoothness of the Denon sound. At the same time I dislike the way it handles bass. I think it's a personal opinion. The bass is very very smooth on this one. It's definitely there, but it lacks a little of the punch I was looking for. My JVC had a very tight yet hearty bass to it when it was calibrated to same db levels as i did with the Denon. You felt everything without having to run it hot. With the Denon you feel very little. You feel presence of bass but it is a smoothness bordering on conservative.

I've run manual calibrations several times, and am still playing around with settings just to make sure i have not missed anything. I want to give this one a full chance. Denon is a reputable model - although perhaps it's not for everyone.

The good thing is i have another 25 days to switch it up with something else. At this point the other option would be either Onkyo, or possibly Yamaha based on reviews and what i'm looking for.

[soundlovr]

Originally Posted by sivadselim

You can't set all the speakers to SMALL and use the "LFE+Main" function.

Ya you can actually and if you'd read the thread, you'd know I already acknowledged that the setting is redundant. When you're hunting down a problem, you try all the possibilities. He's already said that it made a difference, so that says something about the problem right there. Snotty ego-posts don't help much.

[Napoleon D]

soundlovr - The fellow above is actually partly correct. On some other Denon systems it is impossible to set "LFE/main" with speakers set to small. In this case there is something slightly different going on. It looks as if you set LFE + main on mine, that the receiver feeds extra bass to the front mains even if they are set to small. I compared the types of sound I would get - between setting large speakers to small on "LFE - normal", and setting speakers to small using "LFE + main." The outcomes of each were 2 different results so i'm not sure how it is effecting the system exactly.

I've read many threads about this and many are confused about it.

[sivadselim]

Originally Posted by Napoleon D

It looks as if you set LFE + main on mine, that the receiver feeds extra bass to the front mains even if they are set to small.

The "LFE+Main" setting affects what is sent to the subwoofer when the fronts are set to LARGE. It has no effect upon what is sent to the fronts whether they're set to SMALL or LARGE.

Basically the "LFE+Main" setting sends to the subwoofer what would be sent to the subwoofer if the fronts were set to SMALL even though they're really set to LARGE.

Again, it has no effect if the fronts are set to SMALL, already.

[sivadselim]

Originally Posted by soundlovr

Snotty ego-posts don't help much.

Take it how you wish; just trying to explain it to someone who doesn't understand it (that'd be you) as gently but directly as possible. If you're offended, sorry; it's an internet message board. Trying to deduce "tone" from people's posts here is not just futile, but can quickly lead to misunderstandings and pretty ridiculous feuds.

[Brahmzy]

I have had trouble grasping the effects of the sub settings on my DENON as well. Here's my stuff:
DENON 3802
Klipsch RF-82's (dual 8" floorstanders)
Klipsch RC-62 (dual 6 1/2" center)
Klipsch RS-3's (6 1/2" surrounds)
Def Tech 15" Subwoofer

So, call me crazy, but I run my fronts as "large." Things just seem to sound better that way - it seems like I lose so much low-end sound by setting them to "small" @ 80Hz. Things sound so much fuller when set to large. I mean why the heck did I buy the dual 8"ers in a big cabinet, only to set them to small? Why not just buy bookshelfs n be done? Am I missing something? I mean in my mind, the perfect "small" crossover point would be about 50Hz - 60Hz for these speakers, but my DENON only has 80Hz. I just think I'm losing too much if I cut them @ 80Hz ("small") Are the new DENON's still only 80/100/120?
Also, I'm talking primarily about music listening here - I'd probably be fine with them on "small" for movies.

Now "small" is indeed a very necessary setting with many smaller speakers - I have my center and surrounds on small.
Help me out here ... Should I change them to "small"? Maybe I'm actually unhappy with my sub and don't know it? Maybe the 15" is too big and sloppy to blend well where my RF-82's drop off?

[Brahmzy]

Originally Posted by Brahmzy

I have had trouble grasping the effects of the sub settings on my DENON as well. Here's my stuff:
DENON 3802
Klipsch RF-82's (dual 8" floorstanders)
Klipsch RC-62 (dual 6 1/2" center)
Klipsch RS-3's (6 1/2" surrounds)
Def Tech 15" Subwoofer

So, call me crazy, but I run my fronts as "large." Things just seem to sound better that way - it seems like I lose so much low-end sound by setting them to "small" @ 80Hz. Things sound so much fuller when set to large. I mean why the heck did I buy the dual 8"ers in a big cabinet, only to set them to small? Why not just buy bookshelfs n be done? Am I missing something? I mean in my mind, the perfect "small" crossover point would be about 50Hz - 60Hz for these speakers, but my DENON only has 80Hz. I just think I'm losing too much if I cut them @ 80Hz ("small") Are the new DENON's still only 80/100/120?
Also, I'm talking primarily about music listening here - I'd probably be fine with them on "small" for movies.

Now "small" is indeed a very necessary setting with many smaller speakers - I have my center and surrounds on small.
Help me out here ... Should I change them to "small"? Maybe I'm actually unhappy with my sub and don't know it? Maybe the 15" is too big and sloppy to blend well where my RF-82's drop off?

Wow - I'll quote myself. I just looked through the online manual of all the new DENON AVRs. Holy smokes - they've got eveything I need - all kinds of different crossover points for each speaker, and other stuff. I have got to get a new AVR NOW. I don't think I can wait until HDMI 1.3. I've gotta get a 3806 or 4306 ASAP.

Problems solved.

[soundlovr]

Originally Posted by sivadselim

Take it how you wish; just trying to explain it to someone who doesn't understand it (that'd be you) as gently but directly as possible. If you're offended, sorry; it's an internet message board. Trying to deduce "tone" from people's posts here is not just futile, but can quickly lead to misunderstandings and pretty ridiculous feuds.

Yes, because there's nothing offensive about your tone at all. I understand it perfectly thank you very much; and I even acknowledged that I agreed with your position before you so much as posted in this thread... and yet your mouth goes on and on and on. The fact remains, he's getting different sound by changing that setting. If you want to shower us with your vastly superior knowledge, how about finding an explanation for that and actually being helpful?

[Napoleon D]

I tried running an auto-calibration again. (paying more attention to which settings it chose, as opposed to levels). I also turned off "auto-surround" and re-set one of the amp settings (a setting which routes from zone2, front, surround etc). For some reason now, everything improved. Speakers are still set to small w/ 80 crossover, but there is plenty more bass interaction with the midtones now. Prior, I was only hearing bass thumping with the lowest of tones. Basically midtones were suffering, and to me there's nothing worse than weak midtones and poor bass crossover.

I'm not sure what affected what, but sound is much fuller now coming from all speakers. Before it sounded like each speaker just wasn't hitting those low tones that they should have been doing with an 80db crossover.

I'm glad i've stood it out with this receiver as the persistence has definitely paid off. I could not be happier with the sound now. I complained about the bass being on the smooth side. Although now that the crossovers are nice and smooth well into the midtones, I actually appreciate the smoothness of it now. You certainly can feel it without it seeming overwhelming and boomy. That's the trademark of Denon apparently, keeping an even emphasis on all tones. This certainly is the smoothest sounding receiver i've ever heard. SInce i have sensitive ears that is a good thing.