After auto calibration my Denon AVR-887 said "FR/FL Caution Phase" whats that mean?

[Junkhead]

Im not a total n00b, but to that I have no clue. I can scroll through all the speakers after auto setup and they all say that until I exit the auto cal

any help??!!

[Yosh70]

It sounds like you have your front speakers out of phase ie: polarity (+ - ) reversed.

[bllreed]

I would have to agree though not having that receiver the msg sounds like both
of your front speakers are "out of phase". You need to reverse the speaker wires
at either the speaker or the amp, but not both. And make sure the amp is OFF, even unplugged when you do this work. Next time get some speaker wire that's
marked so you can tell which wire is + and which is -. It's a lot easier than trial &
error:-)
br

[Junkhead]

Originally Posted by bllreed

I would have to agree though not having that receiver the msg sounds like both
of your front speakers are "out of phase". You need to reverse the speaker wires
at either the speaker or the amp, but not both. And make sure the amp is OFF, even unplugged when you do this work. Next time get some speaker wire that's
marked so you can tell which wire is + and which is -. It's a lot easier than trial &
error:-)
br

I double checked everything and it was all hooked up correctly except the sub cable which was in the wrong port by mistake, Haven t had a chance to run the auto cal again cause I cant find the mic

[WebEffect]

Originally Posted by Junkhead

I double checked everything and it was all hooked up correctly except the sub cable which was in the wrong port by mistake, Haven t had a chance to run the auto cal again cause I cant find the mic

I have a Yamaha RXV1700 and it always says that my center is out of phase. I emailed Yamaha and they said it's probably a "standing wave" of sound in the room that causes that. I have the impression that it doesn't affect the sound from the speaker but I could be wrong....

[Junkhead]

Again im having this problem 6 months later, I just moved into my new house and its just bugging me, i did auto cal and its saying the same thing , every speaker is out of phase yet everything IS hooked up correctly, Now do i stick with everything being technically hooked up 100% by standard(red to red -black to black) or do i swap them so the receiver thinks they are in phase.

I did this a few months back and i really didnt notice any sound difference at all but the auto cal went all the way through and finished and actually asked me to save my settings.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[umr]

I have found some speakers are wired wrong internally, but receiver phase testing is not 100% correct either. The simplest test would be to play the Avia speaker phase test and see if you can determine which wiring scenario is best. Another option would be to purchase equipment to measure phase or hire someone who can. The last option is to just forget it. Most of the auto calibration tools are a mess.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by Junkhead

Again im having this problem 6 months later, I just moved into my new house and its just bugging me, i did auto cal and its saying the same thing , every speaker is out of phase yet everything IS hooked up correctly, Now do i stick with everything being technically hooked up 100% by standard(red to red -black to black) or do i swap them so the receiver thinks they are in phase.

I did this a few months back and i really didnt notice any sound difference at all but the auto cal went all the way through and finished and actually asked me to save my settings.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

1. If it says that all are out of phase, then the issue is one of 'absolute polarity' which some think important and others do not. Reversing the connections to all the speakers may correct the warnings but I doubt there will be any change in performance.
2. If it says that only some are out of phase, then check your wiring carefully. If wired correctly, ignore the warning as some such auto-setups can be misled by room modes or shifted phase wiring inside the speakers.
3. In general, trust your careful inspection of the wiring.

[J_Palmer_Cass]

Reverse the polarity of your subwoofer, and try the auto cal routine again.

[CAVX]

Ditch the AUTO cal and get a SPL meter...

Mark

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by CAVX

Ditch the AUTO cal and get a SPL meter...
Mark

And what will that tell you about phase and distance?

[shamus]

I believe some speakers are intentionally wired out of phase. Like the others said, check your wires, check the phase of your sub and then leave it alone.

[CAVX]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

And what will that tell you about phase and distance?

The OP has already posted that he has checked and rechecked everything, yet the error keeps coming up. Whilst I have to agree that auto cal is better than no cal, I am doubting the auto cal's ability here, so suggest that a SPL meter is a better option.

Use a tape measure for distance, and use test tones for the phase check.

It may take a bit longer, but he still gets a fully calibrated system...

Mark

[Junkhead]

Originally Posted by CAVX

The OP has already posted that he has checked and rechecked everything, yet the error keeps coming up. Whilst I have to agree that auto cal is better than no cal, I am doubting the auto cal's ability here, so suggest that a SPL meter is a better option.

Use a tape measure for distance, and use test tones for the phase check.

It may take a bit longer, but he still gets a fully calibrated system...

Mark

where do you measure to?, the tv or the listening posistion

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by CAVX

The OP has already posted that he has checked and rechecked everything, yet the error keeps coming up. Whilst I have to agree that auto cal is better than no cal, I am doubting the auto cal's ability here, so suggest that a SPL meter is a better option.

Use a tape measure for distance, and use test tones for the phase check.

It may take a bit longer, but he still gets a fully calibrated system...

Mark

I disagree. First, there are very few discs which will permit good interchannel or absolute phase tests without PC analysis, not just with an SLM.

Second, the same tools would be required for getting the acoustic delay for the subwoofer since it must encompass both physical distance and the delay introduced by the various filters through which the signal passes.

MY experience with most auto setups (only one of the ones I have used failed and that quite obviously) is that they concur with physical and DSP-based independent measurements.

[CAVX]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

I disagree. First, there are very few discs which will permit good interchannel or absolute phase tests without PC analysis, not just with an SLM.

So they might rare, but those discs do exist...

Second, the same tools would be required for getting the acoustic delay for the subwoofer since it must encompass both physical distance and the delay introduced by the various filters through which the signal passes.

And is that not done when I enter the distance for each channels including the sub-woofer? Sub-woofer phase switches are too crude (0-180) by the description you have just given...

MY experience with most auto setups (only one of the ones I have used failed and that quite obviously) is that they concur with physical and DSP-based independent measurements.

Auto calibration is a great marketing tool. It is a quick and easy push of a button for those that don't know what they're doing (which is quite a high percentage of the people out there - just read these forums). As I said, auto cal is better than no cal at all, but I don't think it is the be all to end all...

Mark

[Junkhead]

As far as measuring the auto cal was dead on, i checked everything and compared it to the auto cals settings.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by CAVX

So they might rare, but those discs do exist...

I wonder how many know about the Goldline or Chesky discs. Are there others?

And is that not done when I enter the distance for each channels including the sub-woofer?

Nope. The physical distance is only one component of it. One must also take into account the delays inserted by the various LP filters that process the LFE and rerouted channel bass before it gets to the subwoofer. My measurements using PC/DSP tools concurs with those from the autosetup on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer, the Meridian 861, the NHT controller and, when I had it, the Denon 4806 and none were equivalent to the physical distance.

Sub-woofer phase switches are too crude (0-180) by the description you have just given...

Yup. Fortunately, one can 'compensate' with the distance setting.

Auto calibration is a great marketing tool. It is a quick and easy push of a button for those that don't know what they're doing (which is quite a high percentage of the people out there - just read these forums). As I said, auto cal is better than no cal at all, but I don't think it is the be all to end all...

Sure. There's nothing better than informed intelligence and good tools. However, my experience with (all but one) auto setup has been very positive and, imho, entirely satisfactory for most users.

[umr]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

...Sure. There's nothing better than informed intelligence and good tools. However, my experience with (all but one) auto setup has been very positive and, imho, entirely satisfactory for most users.

I find the exact opposite and I see at least 200 sound systems a year. Most consumers I run across do not get quality results from auto setup routines. These tools do generally get the distance and phase correct, but other areas are frequently grossly in error. Many people have the settings on their subwoofers wrong which makes it impossible for the unit to get things right. I also find serious level errors with many of the automatic results. Auto EQ is even less likely to be correct. Whether this is user error or an error in the receiver I do not know, but my experience in the field is very poor with consumer implementations of automatic setup. I would estimate the success rate in the field is less than 1%. This includes people who have spent considerable effort studying how to do this and purchasing tools.

I had one case where the distances were so wrong I was stunned. I asked the consumer where he placed the microphone he said he placed it in front of the receiver. I asked him why he thought that was correct. His reply was that he thought the receiver needed to know where it was in the room relative to the speakers. I have also seen many automatic systems with speakers wired to the wrong ones because most never have a voice say left, center, right.... Add to this connection errors and wrong switch settings and I find almost no sound systems are even close and it does not seem to matter whether a store did it or the consumer.

In my opinion these automatic systems will not work for most people until they improve the on screen tutorials and provide feedback when a measurement is wrong or suspect. They should also provide tests for as much of the system as possible instead of just the receiver or preamp/amplifier. Many of the problems originate in the source or between the source and the receiver and must to found at that point.

[Randybes]

Originally Posted by umr

Many of the problems originate in the source or between the source and the receiver and must to found at that point.

Could you describe some of these (other than setting up of distance and levels for universal players which would be tough on a pure pass through) as I am unsure what you mean.

[umr]

Originally Posted by Randybes

Could you describe some of these (other than setting up of distance and levels for universal players which would be tough on a pure pass through) as I am unsure what you mean.

First, you must be using the correct connection. Some devices work correctly with HDMI for audio while others require optical or coaxial to work properly. Analog connections can work well in some cases, but they can be inferior or flawed in others. Some devices will not perform bass management properly when analog connections are used.

Second, many sources require changes in the settings to obtain the best sound quality. Some sources require turning on bitstream (DD/DTS...) otherwise they will output PCM and toss the LFE channel. Some of the new HD players will perform bass management over LPCM and mess things up if settings are not correct in the player. This will potentially toss information. Other players may not handshake properly with receivers over HDMI and require manual intervention to obtain the best signal. The PS3 for example supports this type of setup. Some receivers do not process the LFE channel correctly over LPCM.

The key thing is to use quality test material for the various sound formats to find all of these issues. I currently use DTS, DD, PCM, TrueHD and DD+ and measure and listen to a wide range of test signals and recordings. These will help find these issues along with other problems that can be corrected.

[Randybes]

Ok, got it. Thanks.

[sivadselim]

I'm still wondering whether that error message, "FR/FL Caution Phase", means the right and left speaker are out of phase with one another, or that they're both out of phase with the rest of the speakers.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by umr

I find the exact opposite and I see at least 200 sound systems a year. Most consumers I run across do not get quality results from auto setup routines. These tools do generally get the distance and phase correct, but other areas are frequently grossly in error.

The auto setup on most of the units only does distance, phase and level. All the other errors are human, as you demonstrate.

Auto EQ is even less likely to be correct.

Agreed but that is not what I was speaking of.

I had one case where the distances were so wrong I was stunned. I asked the consumer where he placed the microphone he said he placed it in front of the receiver. I asked him why he thought that was correct. His reply was that he thought the receiver needed to know where it was in the room relative to the speakers. I have also seen many automatic systems with speakers wired to the wrong ones because most never have a voice say left, center, right.... Add to this connection errors and wrong switch settings and I find almost no sound systems are even close and it does not seem to matter whether a store did it or the consumer.

Sure. But, again, this has nothing to do with what I was saying so I will state it again: The results from auto setup (level, distance. phase) are generally identical to what I get from careful external measurements. I have done this dozens of times on many different units and only one has been completely refractory to good results. Am I more experienced than the average consumer? Probably. But, the conclusion is that the auto setups do work. Beyond that, there are still many, many other ways to screw up an installation.

In my opinion these automatic systems will not work for most people until they improve the on screen tutorials and provide feedback when a measurement is wrong or suspect. They should also provide tests for as much of the system as possible instead of just the receiver or preamp/amplifier. Many of the problems originate in the source or between the source and the receiver and must to found at that point.

No argument there but, along with that, the first on-screen graphic should say RTFM.

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by sivadselim

I'm still wondering whether that error message, "FR/FL Caution Phase", means the right and left speaker are out of phase with one another, or that they're both out of phase with the rest of the speakers.

It depends on what the software designer meant when he programmed the message.

[whoaru99]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

No argument there but, along with that, the first on-screen graphic should say RTFM.

LOL.

They should put a peel-off decal over the face and rear panel of all AVRs with the same message...

[umr]

Here are some client comments from people who have made some attempt at this and then had me work on their system.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7690864 (Denon)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...04#post6845804 (Pioneer)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10579368 (Yamaha)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...93#post8799293 (Panasonic)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8376824 (Meridian)

[atdamico]

Originally Posted by sivadselim

I'm still wondering whether that error message, "FR/FL Caution Phase", means the right and left speaker are out of phase with one another, or that they're both out of phase with the rest of the speakers.

On a Denon unit it means that the front right is wired out of phase and the front left speaker is wired out of phase. This error message has nothing to do with each other or the rest of the speakers as each speaker is measured independently and the message is in regards to that specific speaker. Denon EQ is notorious for getting this wrong and you simply can't trust the error messages. Check to see that the polarity of the wires is accurate and then IGNORE the error message.

[J_Palmer_Cass]

Originally Posted by atdamico

On a Denon unit it means that the front right is wired out of phase and the front left speaker is wired out of phase. This error message has nothing to do with each other or the rest of the speakers as each speaker is measured independently and the message is in regards to that specific speaker. Denon EQ is notorious for getting this wrong and you simply can't trust the error messages. Check to see that the polarity of the wires is accurate and then IGNORE the error message.

I do not use auto Eq, but I use large mains along with smaller center and surround speakers (same brand & family).

My main R & L 3 way speakers are in fact wired in reverse polarity for two out of the three drivers (mid and tweeter) due to the order of the crossover.

I wire the center and surrounds in reverse polarity (red to black) to get all of the speakers to be in phase with each other. As an alternate, I could have wired the R & L mains plus the subwoofer in reverse polarity.

I am wondering what people use for speakers when they fail this test!

[umr]

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson

.... But, the conclusion is that the auto setups do work....

It is that kind of comment that leads people to believe they will have it right when my experience says just the opposite. I would state it as auto setups can work for the limited parameters that some consider, but most do not when operated by the average person. When you add EQ which is found in many products the outcome is even less likely to be good. I only remember one client who had an automatic setup that worked well enough for him that I did not bother adjusting his system. I could have improved on it, but his room acoustics were so horrible I could not justify the effort/cost.

Out of all of my clients I have only seen two good audio installations done by others and neither used any automated setup routine. One was by a professional using quality equipment in LA and the other was by a skilled amateur with a great ear in Boston. This is based on many hundreds of clients most of whom are more into this stuff than my average friend or relative.