Anyone not use a center channel?

osiris13 · 01-01-07, 01:16 PM

I've heard of a few people who actually prefer systems without center channels, just wondering if anyone here is a proponent of the idea and maybe can explain why?

ChrisWiggles · 01-01-07, 06:48 PM

It depends on the content. Many many people listen to stereo in stereo despite having a surround sound system. Count me in that group. I'd wager that most critical listeners listen this way.

As for multichannel content that has multiple channels including a center channel, I think most listen with a center channel, but some don't. The problem with not using a center for multichannel content is that anyone else not in the sweetspot/on-axis won't have a good center image. But on-axis, the results can be quite good.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 07:13 PM

When I listen to music, no center. With the advent of surround for video/movies, I changed my av receiver. With Video music channels it helps to focus the music, but if it's solely music, I change it . Four channel was around before the center channel add on. Quadraphonic, remember?

Kal Rubinson · 01-01-07, 07:22 PM

It is not a big deal. You simply need as many speaker channels as there are discrete signal channels in the source; anything less (or more) is less than optimum for accurate reproduction. Thus, stereo (2 channel) in and stereo (2 channel) out is fine. However, if there is a real center signal (not a synthesized one), it cannot be accurately reproduced by splitting and mixing it into the L/R channels although many find it acceptable or cannot do otherwise for esthetic or WAF reasons.

Quad was an unfortunate effort that was not based on reliable psychoacoustic research.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 07:37 PM

But Quad was a step in the direction we have now.

Kal Rubinson · 01-01-07, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davinleeds

But Quad was a step in the direction we have now.

Not as I see it. Technologically, both Quad8 nor SQ were dead ends. As for the mixing/mastering, most of it was egregiously flawed. Still, it showed us the possibilities.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 08:08 PM

Well? Step in the direction? You're last sentence?

Kal Rubinson · 01-01-07, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davinleeds

Well? Step in the direction? You're last sentence?

OK. Depends on how you look at it. At the time, I found it silly.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 08:25 PM

I found it groundbreaking- the thought that you could have 4 speakers cranking - and in those days they cranked, verses standard stereo. And I appreciate you and your work, It's only I, as stated, prefer listening to non-center channel when not "centered" on the video. Wasn't the center channel born from the video? Must have been in theaters years before we realized what it was. Evolution is anything and part of everything that "just" occured .

ChrisWiggles · 01-01-07, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Wasn't the center channel born from the video?

It was really born from the need to have a center image for large venues where the vast majority of listeners are not on-axis, for instance at a movie theater where you want dialogue to be centered on the screen, and not coming from one side or the other depending on where you're sitting. And center channels (in content and in playback) are extremely effective at doing this. If everyone is sitting in a straight line right on-axis, the need for having a center channel (either in content or in playback) is reduced.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles

It was really born from the need to have a center image for large venues where the vast majority of listeners are not on-axis, for instance at a movie theater where you want dialogue to be centered on the screen,
.

Early video=theater? "Must have been in theaters before we realized what it was." Kal, Looking up your subscription rates.

Kal Rubinson · 01-01-07, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davinleeds

Wasn't the center channel born from the video? Must have been in theaters years before we realized what it was. Evolution is anything and part of everything that "just" occured .

Actually, it predates quad and derives from the original "stereo" experiments at EMI and ATT where it was determined that a minimum of three front channels wererequired for stereo. That we ended up with only 2-channel stereo is a reflection of the technical difficulty in delivering more than 2 channels in a mass medium, at that time, the LP. Thus, it has nothing to do with video or with surround but with the reproduction of a good frontal image.

sdurani · 01-01-07, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davinleeds

Wasn't the center channel born from the video?

No. The centre channel was created specifically for music playback.

A 3-speaker front soundstage dates back to the early 1930s when Bell Labs was experimenting with transitioning from mono to stereo. They found that a minimum of 3 channels/speakers was needed to recreate the wavefront of the original sonic event; anything less being a compromise.

Its first use in film came at the end of that same decade with Walt Disney's 'Fantasia', which had a 3-channel soundtrack. Since the film contained practically no dialogue (a couple of lines where conductor Leopold Stokowski greets Mickey Mouse), the centre channel was used primarily for music playback. No different than the way Bell Labs had been using it all along.

There were also some classical recordings done in 3-channel stereo, which had to be down-mixed to 2 channels for release on vinyl records. (Some of those recordings finally got released in their original 3-channel versions on SACD.)

Centre channel use for "video" (i.e., locking the dialogue to the screen) didn't occur till decades after the above events.

Sanjay

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 09:03 PM

So tell me how it intergrates with what CW says about theater. Theater didn't push center channel use/the idea of? Center channel theology was later reborn? Theater equals pre video.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 09:05 PM

Remember, I refer to video as early theater. Kal refers to 3 channel.

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdurani

Centre channel use for "video" (i.e., locking the dialogue to the screen) didn't occur till decades after the above events.

Sanjay

"Wasn't the center channel born from the video?"

What changed? Deserted during the analog era? We have 3 channel for Fantasia, 2 channel for rock and roll, then MTV???

Davinleeds · 01-01-07, 10:10 PM

Appreciate the discussion.

Kal Rubinson · 01-01-07, 10:23 PM

OK. I might respond if I understood what you are asking.

01-01-07, 01:16 PM	#1 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a4ac4393' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:30&n=a4ac4393' border='0' alt=''></a>
osiris13 Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 173	Anyone not use a center channel? I've heard of a few people who actually prefer systems without center channels, just wondering if anyone here is a proponent of the idea and maybe can explain why?

01-01-07, 06:48 PM	#2 \| Link
ChrisWiggles Perpetually Confused Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 17,965	It depends on the content. Many many people listen to stereo in stereo despite having a surround sound system. Count me in that group. I'd wager that most critical listeners listen this way. As for multichannel content that has multiple channels including a center channel, I think most listen with a center channel, but some don't. The problem with not using a center for multichannel content is that anyone else not in the sweetspot/on-axis won't have a good center image. But on-axis, the results can be quite good. __________________ Source Settings Guide Discover the best radio station on earth: kexp.org

01-01-07, 07:22 PM	#4 \| Link
Kal Rubinson AVS Addicted Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NYC + Connecticut Posts: 20,449	It is not a big deal. You simply need as many speaker channels as there are discrete signal channels in the source; anything less (or more) is less than optimum for accurate reproduction. Thus, stereo (2 channel) in and stereo (2 channel) out is fine. However, if there is a real center signal (not a synthesized one), it cannot be accurately reproduced by splitting and mixing it into the L/R channels although many find it acceptable or cannot do otherwise for esthetic or WAF reasons. Quad was an unfortunate effort that was not based on reliable psychoacoustic research. __________________ Kal Rubinson "Music in the Round" Contributing Editor, Stereophile www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/

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Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	But Quad was a step in the direction we have now.

01-01-07, 09:05 PM	#15 \| Link	<a href='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?n=a591f81a' target='_blank'><img src='http://rev.avsforum.com/phpAdsNew/adview.php?what=zone:36&n=a591f81a' border='0' alt=''></a>
Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	Remember, I refer to video as early theater. Kal refers to 3 channel.

01-01-07, 07:13 PM	#3 \| Link
Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	When I listen to music, no center. With the advent of surround for video/movies, I changed my av receiver. With Video music channels it helps to focus the music, but if it's solely music, I change it . Four channel was around before the center channel add on. Quadraphonic, remember?

01-01-07, 08:08 PM	#7 \| Link
Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	Well? Step in the direction? You're last sentence?

01-01-07, 08:25 PM	#9 \| Link
Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	I found it groundbreaking- the thought that you could have 4 speakers cranking - and in those days they cranked, verses standard stereo. And I appreciate you and your work, It's only I, as stated, prefer listening to non-center channel when not "centered" on the video. Wasn't the center channel born from the video? Must have been in theaters years before we realized what it was. Evolution is anything and part of everything that "just" occured .

01-01-07, 09:03 PM	#14 \| Link
Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	So tell me how it intergrates with what CW says about theater. Theater didn't push center channel use/the idea of? Center channel theology was later reborn? Theater equals pre video.

01-01-07, 10:10 PM	#17 \| Link
Davinleeds AVS Special Member AVS GOLD CLUB MEMBER Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,579	Appreciate the discussion.

01-01-07, 10:23 PM	#18 \| Link
Kal Rubinson AVS Addicted Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NYC + Connecticut Posts: 20,449	OK. I might respond if I understood what you are asking. __________________ Kal Rubinson "Music in the Round" Contributing Editor, Stereophile www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/